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Americans Scared ofthe Wrong Things

GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/15/2010 5:02:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/15/2010 5:12:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Bill Maher is my hero.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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8/15/2010 5:13:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
By the way Geo, were you always an Anarchist?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/15/2010 5:18:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 5:13:29 AM, tvellalott wrote:
By the way Geo, were you always an Anarchist?

At least since I joined this site 2 years ago.

My ideology has varied from time to time, but I live by these words no matter what:

"All freedom is our natural and eternal right, NOT the gift of some dark suit or uniform to decide if it's going to give it to us or not!" - David Icke
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/15/2010 6:01:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 5:18:49 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2010 5:13:29 AM, tvellalott wrote:
By the way Geo, were you always an Anarchist?

At least since I joined this site 2 years ago.

My ideology has varied from time to time, but I live by these words no matter what:

"All freedom is our natural and eternal right, NOT the gift of some dark suit or uniform to decide if it's going to give it to us or not!" - David Icke

Interesting. Which governments claim that our right to freedom is a product of the government itself? None that I know of.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/15/2010 6:14:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 6:01:56 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Interesting. Which governments claim that our right to freedom is a product of the government itself? None that I know of.

Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/15/2010 6:15:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 6:14:29 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.
May I kill you?
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/15/2010 6:33:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.:

And in the absence of all government, who decides what freedoms you should have?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/15/2010 7:02:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 6:33:55 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
And in the absence of all government, who decides what freedoms you should have?
If we let the worst criminals decide what freedoms people should have, the result would be anarchism.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/15/2010 7:03:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 6:33:55 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.:

And in the absence of all government, who decides what freedoms you should have?

The individual by his or herself, which is a terrible idea.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/15/2010 7:04:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 6:14:29 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:01:56 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Interesting. Which governments claim that our right to freedom is a product of the government itself? None that I know of.

Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.

government doesn't rob you of your freedom, it just punishes certain freedoms.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/15/2010 7:08:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:04:10 AM, badger wrote:
government doesn't rob you of your freedom, it just punishes certain freedoms.
Indeed. Plan your actions, prepare for consequences.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/15/2010 7:38:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:04:10 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:14:29 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:01:56 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Interesting. Which governments claim that our right to freedom is a product of the government itself? None that I know of.

Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.

government doesn't rob you of your freedom, it just punishes certain freedoms.

Perfect.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/15/2010 8:30:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:02:11 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:33:55 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
And in the absence of all government, who decides what freedoms you should have?
If we let the worst criminals decide what freedoms people should have, the result would be THE GOVERNMENT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.

Exactly Mirza. It's about time you started making sense DX
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/15/2010 8:31:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 7:04:10 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:14:29 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:01:56 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Interesting. Which governments claim that our right to freedom is a product of the government itself? None that I know of.

Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.

government doesn't rob you of your freedom, it just punishes certain freedoms.

This is an incredibly inaccurate statement. Of course it is internally inconsistent so I really need not comment on it.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/15/2010 8:34:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 8:30:16 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Exactly Mirza. It's about time you started making sense DX
The worst criminals in a society are not necessarily those who wish to protect lives.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/15/2010 8:35:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 8:31:45 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:04:10 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:14:29 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:01:56 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Interesting. Which governments claim that our right to freedom is a product of the government itself? None that I know of.

Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.

government doesn't rob you of your freedom, it just punishes certain freedoms.

This is an incredibly inaccurate statement. Of course it is internally inconsistent so I really need not comment on it.

point out the inconsistency.
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Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/15/2010 8:43:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 8:34:12 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:30:16 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Exactly Mirza. It's about time you started making sense DX
The worst criminals in a society are not necessarily those who wish to protect lives.

Why are you assuming the people who own this country are doing it "to protect lives?" Where are you getting these ideas from? I have a feeling this exchange is just going to be you making assumption after unsubstantiated assumption, and me continuing to point it out until I give up.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/15/2010 8:47:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 8:35:24 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:31:45 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:04:10 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:14:29 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:01:56 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Interesting. Which governments claim that our right to freedom is a product of the government itself? None that I know of.

Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.

government doesn't rob you of your freedom, it just punishes certain freedoms.

This is an incredibly inaccurate statement. Of course it is internally inconsistent so I really need not comment on it.

point out the inconsistency.

Sure!

1) government does not rob people of freedom
2) government punishes freedom

You cannot escape robbing someone of an action if you are punishing them for that same action.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/15/2010 8:47:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 8:43:08 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Why are you assuming the people who own this country are doing it "to protect lives?" Where are you getting these ideas from? I have a feeling this exchange is just going to be you making assumption after unsubstantiated assumption, and me continuing to point it out until I give up.
The role of a government is, at its best, to protect the lives of people so that a society can function well as a whole. We are living in the 1st century, not 150,000 years BC. We are living among different cultures, races, religious groups, etc. In order to maintain some peace between them, and have power to do it, we need a government. We are also more dependent on each other than ever before. What one societal group does in a society may affect all other groups either negatively or positively. If negatively, we need higher authority to stop it. That is what a government should do. If we were all sailing our own boat, then we would not need a government to patrol the sea. However, we are all in one great ship, and if the ship has to stay on the surface of the sea, we need someone to control it. If we want it to sink, we can let it head to any direction and let people cut holes at the bottom of it.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/15/2010 8:51:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 8:47:29 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:35:24 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:31:45 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:04:10 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:14:29 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:01:56 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Interesting. Which governments claim that our right to freedom is a product of the government itself? None that I know of.

Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.

government doesn't rob you of your freedom, it just punishes certain freedoms.

This is an incredibly inaccurate statement. Of course it is internally inconsistent so I really need not comment on it.

point out the inconsistency.

Sure!

1) government does not rob people of freedom
2) government punishes freedom

You cannot escape robbing someone of an action if you are punishing them for that same action.

they still have the freedom to commit the action. government just imposes consequences for certain actions in the interest of discouraging you from commiting them. that's not robbing you of your freedom.
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Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/15/2010 9:12:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The role of a government is, at its best, to protect the lives of people so that a society can function well as a whole. We are living in the [2]1st century, not 150,000 years BC. We are living among different cultures, races, religious groups, etc. In order to maintain some peace between them, and have power to do it, we need a government.

That is up for debate, my good sir. I personally think that general, centralized authority gets in the way more than it helps. What is important is liberating and educating the people. Government's role is a self-fulfilling prophecy; the more they control and oppress us, the more we need them to survive. It's sort of like when you work for a company that won't teach you the ropes other than the specific function you currently perform.

We are also more dependent on each other than ever before. What one societal group does in a society may affect all other groups either negatively or positively. If negatively, we need higher authority to stop it.

If negatively, there will be negative consequences - for everyone. In the "21st century," we are beginning to realize that society is a system; we all depend on each other for success. The only reason we are able to concentrate so much wealth and power into such a small group (while robbing it from the working class) like we currently do is because the centralized authority backs them up with guns. As a truly free society, we would never make such an inefficient use of our resources as, say, spending millions of dollars for a few individuals to own their own golf courses and a garage full of luxury autos. It just wouldn't happen. Of course currency also plays into this as well, although that's somewhat tangental to our discussion at this point.

That is what a government should do. If we were all sailing our own boat, then we would not need a government to patrol the sea. However, we are all in one great ship, and if the ship has to stay on the surface of the sea, we need someone to control it. If we want it to sink, we can let it head to any direction and let people cut holes at the bottom of it.

People cut holes at the bottom of it because they are oppressed. I don't give a sh11 if every Wal-mart, Mcdonalds, Starbucks, and just about every other corporate entity in the entire country suddenly exploded - I would think it's kind of cool actually. Their success does nothing for me. We are not a team, we are a collection of individualistic entities. What we really need, instead of central authority, is a collective family. I hope that when my children grow up they DO actually care that the institutions supporting their needs succeed. I envision a future where the community farm is helped by everyone because everyone knows their food comes from there. There's no need to "pay" them to help out because they are naturally incentivized to do so. The same goes with the local production of goods and services. Imagine a community where people offer their services to local activities simply because they are not busy at the moment. They know that these local services serve them, so they help out. Natural social pressure is more than adequate to drive this. A colony of ants does not thrive and work well because each ant is being individualistic and demanding money for its services. Ants work in unison because they need to in order to survive. Any individual ant could sit around and just eat if it wanted, but it doesn't. Is this merely because of instinct? Perhaps, but I believe the ants are actually happier when they are busy. And I know for a fact I am happier when I am busy. Humans are not as different from ants as you may want to believe.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/15/2010 9:14:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 8:51:31 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:47:29 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:35:24 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:31:45 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:04:10 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:14:29 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:01:56 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Interesting. Which governments claim that our right to freedom is a product of the government itself? None that I know of.

Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.

government doesn't rob you of your freedom, it just punishes certain freedoms.

This is an incredibly inaccurate statement. Of course it is internally inconsistent so I really need not comment on it.

point out the inconsistency.

Sure!

1) government does not rob people of freedom
2) government punishes freedom

You cannot escape robbing someone of an action if you are punishing them for that same action.

they still have the freedom to commit the action. government just imposes consequences for certain actions in the interest of discouraging you from commiting them. that's not robbing you of your freedom.

Really... Imprisonment isn't robbing of freedom? I'm not sure I can even find the words to argue that.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/15/2010 9:31:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 9:14:28 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:51:31 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:47:29 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:35:24 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 8:31:45 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 8/15/2010 7:04:10 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:14:29 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/15/2010 6:01:56 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Interesting. Which governments claim that our right to freedom is a product of the government itself? None that I know of.

Governments clearly decide what freedoms we have and don't have. "You are free to do this, you are not free to do this."

It's called the legal system.

government doesn't rob you of your freedom, it just punishes certain freedoms.

This is an incredibly inaccurate statement. Of course it is internally inconsistent so I really need not comment on it.

point out the inconsistency.

Sure!

1) government does not rob people of freedom
2) government punishes freedom

You cannot escape robbing someone of an action if you are punishing them for that same action.

they still have the freedom to commit the action. government just imposes consequences for certain actions in the interest of discouraging you from commiting them. that's not robbing you of your freedom.

Really... Imprisonment isn't robbing of freedom? I'm not sure I can even find the words to argue that.

that's usually the consequence. do you not think there should be one?
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Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/15/2010 9:34:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 5:02:57 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
[Bill Maher video]

That video is just... Unbelievably awesome.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/15/2010 9:42:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 9:37:54 AM, badger wrote:
also government ensures most of the freedoms it takes away so i'm not really sure i'd consider it robbery.

Now that is self-contradictory.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/15/2010 9:43:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/15/2010 9:42:37 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 8/15/2010 9:37:54 AM, badger wrote:
also government ensures most of the freedoms it takes away so i'm not really sure i'd consider it robbery.

Now that is self-contradictory.

it ensures those freedoms to the law abiding folk :)
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