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Equal Pay Laws

J.Kenyon
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8/19/2010 10:09:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Anyone care to debate it with me? I'll be free in a little over a week. Specifically, I intend to argue against laws mandating equal pay for men and women. I'd prefer to go against a feminist with some knowledge of economics, but I'm willing to take on anybody I think is up to it. I'll have the debate posted here shortly.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/20/2010 1:13:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/19/2010 10:09:02 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Anyone care to debate it with me? I'll be free in a little over a week. Specifically, I intend to argue against laws mandating equal pay for men and women. I'd prefer to go against a feminist with some knowledge of economics, but I'm willing to take on anybody I think is up to it. I'll have the debate posted here shortly.

I don't know much about economics I know they aren't paid the same. I want to ask before I agree why you are against equality?
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/20/2010 7:43:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Lol. Good luck finding an opponent here who thinks the law should mandate how much people get paid. Seems like you want to debate a socialist/communist more so than a feminist.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/20/2010 7:44:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:43:10 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Lol. Good luck finding an opponent here who thinks the law should mandate how much people get paid. Seems like you want to debate a socialist/communist more so than a feminist.

lots of feminists complain about Men making more than women for the same jobs.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
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8/20/2010 7:45:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:33:47 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
I'm not against equality, I'm against coercion and poor economic policy.

....? If they are required to pay a man X amout the same amout should be required of the female pay.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/20/2010 7:46:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:44:46 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/20/2010 7:43:10 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Lol. Good luck finding an opponent here who thinks the law should mandate how much people get paid. Seems like you want to debate a socialist/communist more so than a feminist.

lots of feminists complain about Men making more than women for the same jobs.

lots also complain about Overall pay levels (which includes different jobs) being different.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/20/2010 7:46:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:45:29 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 8/20/2010 7:33:47 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
I'm not against equality, I'm against coercion and poor economic policy.

....? If they are required to pay a man X amout the same amout should be required of the female pay.

That's bullsh!t.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/20/2010 7:47:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:45:29 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 8/20/2010 7:33:47 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
I'm not against equality, I'm against coercion and poor economic policy.

....? If they are required to pay a man X amout the same amout should be required of the female pay.

what if females are more of a risk?

like they might get pregnant?

or, they might be generally more apt to want to leave early to take care of their kids.

or might be generally more apt to spend time at work calling their kids or arranging things for them.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/20/2010 7:48:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:44:46 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/20/2010 7:43:10 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Lol. Good luck finding an opponent here who thinks the law should mandate how much people get paid. Seems like you want to debate a socialist/communist more so than a feminist.

lots of feminists complain about Men making more than women for the same jobs.

So? I complain about it too. That doesn't mean there should be laws about it. This is a near impossible debate to win (and with good reason) -- Only someone like lovelife would be silly enough to take it.
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mattrodstrom
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8/20/2010 7:49:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
and what if the employer simply thinks that the men available for the job would do a better job than the females?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/20/2010 7:50:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:47:48 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/20/2010 7:45:29 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 8/20/2010 7:33:47 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
I'm not against equality, I'm against coercion and poor economic policy.

....? If they are required to pay a man X amout the same amout should be required of the female pay.

what if females are more of a risk?

like they might get pregnant?

or, they might be generally more apt to want to leave early to take care of their kids.

or might be generally more apt to spend time at work calling their kids or arranging things for them.

Lol that shouldn't make a difference in pay. My stepdad does more of those than my mom. In fact never once has she checked on me while working at all. He does about 3-4 times a day. And still non equal pay is not fair.

I don't think I should take the debate because like Panda said I understand very little and because of that could not make very good arguments.
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I-am-a-panda
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8/20/2010 7:50:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:49:33 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
and what if the employer simply thinks that the men available for the job would do a better job than the females?

http://www.slapyo.com...
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lovelife
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8/20/2010 7:52:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:49:33 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
and what if the employer simply thinks that the men available for the job would do a better job than the females?

Then he's sexist. What your saying is basically not hire females, which is wrong. If she does the same work for the same time and same quality she should be paid the same no more no less than anyone else doing the exact same thing even if its male. I really can't believe people don't see that. Even I can see it.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/20/2010 7:53:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
In response to Matt - notice all of the "what ifs" and the fact that women get pregnant, care more about the kids than her spouse, etc. are all founded in stereotypes and do not apply to all women or families, meaning that logic is unjust in determining pay. I could easily debate the "feminist" side (even though that's lumping feminists in a giant group with one particular belief system which is false and dangerous -- for instance there are some pro-life feminists and some pro-choice feminists), but nobody is going to bother taking the time reading the arguments and just side with J. Kenyon automatically. Besides, he specifically mentioned "equal pay laws" which is iffy and something I don't particularly agree with in many cases.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/20/2010 7:53:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:50:59 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/20/2010 7:49:33 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
and what if the employer simply thinks that the men available for the job would do a better job than the females?

http://www.slapyo.com...

http://www.google.com...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/20/2010 7:54:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:49:33 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
and what if the employer simply thinks that the men available for the job would do a better job than the females?

... That's a different scenario.

You're saying a man is more qualified for a particular job than a woman. Equal pay laws means equal pay for the same job; if both employees have the same qualifications and performance, there should be equal pay. Right now women with even more qualifications and better performance at the same job still earn 77 cents for every dollar her male counterpart makes.
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I-am-a-panda
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8/20/2010 7:55:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:53:16 AM, theLwerd wrote:
In response to Matt - notice all of the "what ifs" and the fact that women get pregnant, care more about the kids than her spouse, etc. are all founded in stereotypes and do not apply to all women or families, meaning that logic is unjust in determining pay. I could easily debate the "feminist" side (even though that's lumping feminists in a giant group with one particular belief system which is false and dangerous -- for instance there are some pro-life feminists and some pro-choice feminists), but nobody is going to bother taking the time reading the arguments and just side with J. Kenyon automatically. Besides, he specifically mentioned "equal pay laws" which is iffy and something I don't particularly agree with in many cases.

The majority of women get pregnant, and the majority will take maternity leave. Ergo, they're a burden and a liability. And if the majority aren't, we have bigger issues an equal pay laws.
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mattrodstrom
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8/20/2010 7:56:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:53:16 AM, theLwerd wrote:
In response to Matt - notice all of the "what ifs" and the fact that women get pregnant, care more about the kids than her spouse, etc. are all founded in stereotypes and do not apply to all women or families, meaning that logic is unjust in determining pay.

If I as an employer notice that women generally are much more likely to do that stuff..

I will of course be less comfortable hiring a woman ESPECIALLY if she has kids.. or is young and just got married or something.

SO... I'd be less willing to lay out the dough on her.. then on a guy.

More risk.. Men don't take pregnancy leave... And they don't as often end up doing as much for their kids.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/20/2010 8:00:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ah, okay. I see. So because women have the burden of child rearing (which they never asked for - and may not even plan on utilizing), all of them in general do not deserve equal pay for doing the same job as a man even though she may have the same qualifications and similar performance. That makes perfect sense -- thank you for clearing that up. The woman has to be the one to get knocked up, be pregnant, push an 8lb lump out of the hole in her vag, suffer all of the physical (and mental/emotional) turmoils of motherhood, and despite that, even though she is completely equal (or better) than her male counterparts in every way, she still deserves less pay despite balancing motherhood and work and taking on double the workload of any man by your own admission based on the role of males in child care. Gotcha. In other words a woman should not even bother achieving the same things as men because they're going to be inhibited either way based on their genitalia.
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J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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8/20/2010 8:01:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:43:10 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Lol. Good luck finding an opponent here who thinks the law should mandate how much people get paid. Seems like you want to debate a socialist/communist more so than a feminist.

I was thinking Annhasle or Yvette might take it. Do you think Vi would be interested?
Danielle
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8/20/2010 8:03:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 8:01:12 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 8/20/2010 7:43:10 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Lol. Good luck finding an opponent here who thinks the law should mandate how much people get paid. Seems like you want to debate a socialist/communist more so than a feminist.

I was thinking Annhasle or Yvette might take it. Do you think Vi would be interested?

She hasn't been debating lately or spending much time on DDO, but maybe. I can ask her later.
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I-am-a-panda
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8/20/2010 8:05:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 8:00:44 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Ah, okay. I see. So because women have the burden of child rearing (which they never asked for - and may not even plan on utilizing), all of them in general do not deserve equal pay for doing the same job as a man even though she may have the same qualifications and similar performance. That makes perfect sense -- thank you for clearing that up. The woman has to be the one to get knocked up, be pregnant, push an 8lb lump out of the hole in her vag, suffer all of the physical (and mental/emotional) turmoils of motherhood, and despite that, even though she is completely equal (or better) than her male counterparts in every way, she still deserves less pay despite balancing motherhood and work and taking on double the workload of any man by your own admission based on the role of males in child care. Gotcha. In other words a woman should not even bother achieving the same things as men because they're going to be inhibited either way based on their genitalia.

Basically, given that most employers have to pay some form of maternity leave.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/20/2010 8:08:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 8:00:44 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Ah, okay. I see. So because women have the burden of child rearing (which they never asked for - and may not even plan on utilizing), all of them in general do not deserve equal pay for doing the same job as a man even though she may have the same qualifications and similar performance. That makes perfect sense -- thank you for clearing that up. The woman has to be the one to get knocked up, be pregnant, push an 8lb lump out of the hole in her vag, suffer all of the physical (and mental/emotional) turmoils of motherhood, and despite that, even though she is completely equal (or better) than her male counterparts in every way, she still deserves less pay despite balancing motherhood and work and taking on double the workload of any man by your own admission based on the role of males in child care. Gotcha. In other words a woman should not even bother achieving the same things as men because they're going to be inhibited either way based on their genitalia.

lol...

sorry you don't like the way of things...

but... as (I think)you (basically) said in the thread on Racism or whatever...

stereotypes generally do reflect realities (even if they're NOT biological or whatever) and because of that... can be useful.

You said you'd feel a little bit warier walking by a black guy at night b/c when you were little almost all the rapists who were shown on whatever were Black..

this doesn't mean that Blacks are inherently more likely to rape people... at best it simply means that given all of the particular quirks of the world it ends up that "blacks" in your neighborhood do that more.

Now... such patterns DON'T necessarily reflect upon the nature of the people... BUT they do reflect upon the realities of THE WORLD.

same with the women....

Because of the way the world is... Hiring women Does Seem to be more risky.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/20/2010 8:10:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 8:08:10 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Because of the way the world is... Hiring women Does Seem to be more risky.

Though I DID hear that in the recession more women are being hired b/c they're generally paid less...

so... at the moment... it's working for you :/ :)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/20/2010 8:10:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:54:21 AM, theLwerd wrote:

Equal pay laws means equal pay for the same job; if both employees have the same qualifications and performance, there should be equal pay. Right now women with even more qualifications and better performance at the same job still earn 77 cents for every dollar her male counterpart makes.

Pretty much my whole POV.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
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8/20/2010 8:13:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 8:00:44 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Ah, okay. I see. So because women have the burden of child rearing (which they never asked for - and may not even plan on utilizing), all of them in general do not deserve equal pay for doing the same job as a man even though she may have the same qualifications and similar performance. That makes perfect sense -- thank you for clearing that up. The woman has to be the one to get knocked up, be pregnant, push an 8lb lump out of the hole in her vag, suffer all of the physical (and mental/emotional) turmoils of motherhood, and despite that, even though she is completely equal (or better) than her male counterparts in every way, she still deserves less pay despite balancing motherhood and work and taking on double the workload of any man by your own admission based on the role of males in child care. Gotcha. In other words a woman should not even bother achieving the same things as men because they're going to be inhibited either way based on their genitalia.

I thought you were on their side. Anyway this is a great point and another I believe in.

Just because one MIGHT take time off or something doesn't mean they should get paid less for the work they do...
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I-am-a-panda
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8/20/2010 8:22:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 8:13:20 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 8/20/2010 8:00:44 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Ah, okay. I see. So because women have the burden of child rearing (which they never asked for - and may not even plan on utilizing), all of them in general do not deserve equal pay for doing the same job as a man even though she may have the same qualifications and similar performance. That makes perfect sense -- thank you for clearing that up. The woman has to be the one to get knocked up, be pregnant, push an 8lb lump out of the hole in her vag, suffer all of the physical (and mental/emotional) turmoils of motherhood, and despite that, even though she is completely equal (or better) than her male counterparts in every way, she still deserves less pay despite balancing motherhood and work and taking on double the workload of any man by your own admission based on the role of males in child care. Gotcha. In other words a woman should not even bother achieving the same things as men because they're going to be inhibited either way based on their genitalia.

I thought you were on their side. Anyway this is a great point and another I believe in.

Just because one MIGHT take time off or something doesn't mean they should get paid less for the work they do...

If one might take time off, which the employer pays for, and which means the employer must still pay wages to other employees to fill the work lost by this workers absence, then one should expect less pay.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
LaissezFaire
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8/20/2010 8:26:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 7:54:21 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 8/20/2010 7:49:33 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
and what if the employer simply thinks that the men available for the job would do a better job than the females?

... That's a different scenario.

You're saying a man is more qualified for a particular job than a woman. Equal pay laws means equal pay for the same job; if both employees have the same qualifications and performance, there should be equal pay. Right now women with even more qualifications and better performance at the same job still earn 77 cents for every dollar her male counterpart makes.

That isn't true. The 77 cents to the dollar ratio is true overall, but irrelevant, since it doesn't control for other factors. The ratio is 86 cents to the dollar for those with full-time jobs, and 95 cents to the dollar if you control for different jobs, education, and time in the workforce. Still, unfortunately, a gap, but a small one, and one that is narrowing.
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