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Agorism

InsertNameHere
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8/20/2010 11:35:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have been looking into this system out of interest sparked by my bf(don't ask...). It seems interesting enough, a free-market economy created through the black market, leading to abolishing large corporations(which I despise). So thoughts?

http://en.wikipedia.org...
I-am-a-panda
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8/20/2010 11:44:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 11:35:34 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I have been looking into this system out of interest sparked by my bf(don't ask...). It seems interesting enough, a free-market economy created through the black market, leading to abolishing large corporations(which I despise). So thoughts?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

That's really a lawl idea to me. If everyone begins to support the black market, companies wisen up and start selling through the black mart, or the government intervenes heavily in the black market. It ain't gonna work, and the end goal is some weird form of anarchy.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
InsertNameHere
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8/20/2010 11:48:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 11:44:44 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/20/2010 11:35:34 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I have been looking into this system out of interest sparked by my bf(don't ask...). It seems interesting enough, a free-market economy created through the black market, leading to abolishing large corporations(which I despise). So thoughts?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

That's really a lawl idea to me. If everyone begins to support the black market, companies wisen up and start selling through the black mart, or the government intervenes heavily in the black market. It ain't gonna work, and the end goal is some weird form of anarchy.

Yea, I can see how that could be a problem, especially since I'm a authoritarian I can't support a system like this. My ideal system is one where there's a strong state and no corporation because they're evil although I do support a free-market to a certain extent.
LaissezFaire
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8/20/2010 11:49:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think it could work to an extent. If more people join the black market, it will breed disillusionment with statism, as more people would lose reliance on the state and rightly see it as their enemy.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
I-am-a-panda
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8/20/2010 11:50:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 11:48:54 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/20/2010 11:44:44 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/20/2010 11:35:34 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I have been looking into this system out of interest sparked by my bf(don't ask...). It seems interesting enough, a free-market economy created through the black market, leading to abolishing large corporations(which I despise). So thoughts?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

That's really a lawl idea to me. If everyone begins to support the black market, companies wisen up and start selling through the black mart, or the government intervenes heavily in the black market. It ain't gonna work, and the end goal is some weird form of anarchy.

Yea, I can see how that could be a problem, especially since I'm a authoritarian I can't support a system like this. My ideal system is one where there's a strong state and no corporation because they're evil although I do support a free-market to a certain extent.

LOL. If they're an evil they're a very necessary evil.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
mattrodstrom
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8/20/2010 11:57:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 11:54:46 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/20/2010 11:49:54 AM, badger wrote:
whatever happened to drug dealers being akin to terrorists?

Wrong thread, dude. :P

no.

they're black market entrepreneurs
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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8/20/2010 11:57:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 11:48:54 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/20/2010 11:44:44 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/20/2010 11:35:34 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I have been looking into this system out of interest sparked by my bf(don't ask...). It seems interesting enough, a free-market economy created through the black market, leading to abolishing large corporations(which I despise). So thoughts?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

That's really a lawl idea to me. If everyone begins to support the black market, companies wisen up and start selling through the black mart, or the government intervenes heavily in the black market. It ain't gonna work, and the end goal is some weird form of anarchy.

Yea, I can see how that could be a problem, especially since I'm a authoritarian I can't support a system like this. My ideal system is one where there's a strong state and no corporation because they're evil although I do support a free-market to a certain extent.

Why do you support a strong state? Say I refused to pay taxes to support an immoral war, or I wanted to give the money that I earned to a private charity rather than an inefficient government welfare bureaucracy. I would be arrested. If I refused to be kidnapped by government thugs, I would be shot. I wouldn't be hurting anyone by refusing to support the state; I would just be minding my own business and expecting others to do the same. But I would be killed for it. On the other hand, a corporation would never hurt me if I refused to buy its products. They might lower their prices, improve quality, or advertise more to try to convince me to buy them, but they'd never force them on me. So why are corporations evil, but states aren't?
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
badger
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8/20/2010 11:57:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 11:54:46 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/20/2010 11:49:54 AM, badger wrote:
whatever happened to drug dealers being akin to terrorists?

Wrong thread, dude. :P

i don't think so.
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InsertNameHere
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8/20/2010 12:01:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 11:57:46 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:

Why do you support a strong state? Say I refused to pay taxes to support an immoral war, or I wanted to give the money that I earned to a private charity rather than an inefficient government welfare bureaucracy. I would be arrested. If I refused to be kidnapped by government thugs, I would be shot. I wouldn't be hurting anyone by refusing to support the state; I would just be minding my own business and expecting others to do the same. But I would be killed for it. On the other hand, a corporation would never hurt me if I refused to buy its products. They might lower their prices, improve quality, or advertise more to try to convince me to buy them, but they'd never force them on me. So why are corporations evil, but states aren't?

I mainly feel there needs to be a strong state for things such as law enforcement. I believe in having stricter penalties for most crimes. That could only be carried out by a strong state. Also, there needs to be somebody there to protect the interests of the poor, minority groups, etc. I despise discrimination. Also, there needs to be certain moral standards upheld in society(inb4 I get called an uptight conservative prude).
LaissezFaire
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8/20/2010 12:13:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:01:34 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/20/2010 11:57:46 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:

Why do you support a strong state? Say I refused to pay taxes to support an immoral war, or I wanted to give the money that I earned to a private charity rather than an inefficient government welfare bureaucracy. I would be arrested. If I refused to be kidnapped by government thugs, I would be shot. I wouldn't be hurting anyone by refusing to support the state; I would just be minding my own business and expecting others to do the same. But I would be killed for it. On the other hand, a corporation would never hurt me if I refused to buy its products. They might lower their prices, improve quality, or advertise more to try to convince me to buy them, but they'd never force them on me. So why are corporations evil, but states aren't?

I mainly feel there needs to be a strong state for things such as law enforcement. I believe in having stricter penalties for most crimes. That could only be carried out by a strong state. Also, there needs to be somebody there to protect the interests of the poor, minority groups, etc. I despise discrimination. Also, there needs to be certain moral standards upheld in society(inb4 I get called an uptight conservative prude).

And what if I don't want to support government law enforcement? For example, look at the War on Drugs in the U.S. Because drugs are illegal, gangs run the market. The street gangs kill children on the streets of our cities, the Mexican cartels kill thousands every year in Mexico and its U.S. border, and the Taliban uses money from heroin production to fund the killing of Afghan civilians and American troops, all because of our War on Drugs. You may disagree with me on drug legalization, but how can you support the government's right to murder me because I refuse to support a war that causes the slaughter of children? I disagree with you on abortion, but would never point a gun at your head and demand that you hand over your money to support an abortion clinic, something you find morally abhorrent.

The government is needed to protect minorities? If I were a minority; I'd want the government to get the hell away from me, not 'protect' me. One in ten black males are in prison, and many more are ex-cons, who are prevented from ever living a normal life, all because of our war on drugs. Arab males are constantly being discriminated against by border and airline security, and even sometimes being locked up in Guantanamo indefinitely. Rather than minorities needing the government to protect them from discrimination, I would argue that minorities need protection from the government.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Reasoning
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8/20/2010 12:25:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
http://www.debate.org...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
InsertNameHere
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8/20/2010 12:30:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:13:32 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:

And what if I don't want to support government law enforcement? For example, look at the War on Drugs in the U.S. Because drugs are illegal, gangs run the market. The street gangs kill children on the streets of our cities, the Mexican cartels kill thousands every year in Mexico and its U.S. border, and the Taliban uses money from heroin production to fund the killing of Afghan civilians and American troops, all because of our War on Drugs. You may disagree with me on drug legalization, but how can you support the government's right to murder me because I refuse to support a war that causes the slaughter of children? I disagree with you on abortion, but would never point a gun at your head and demand that you hand over your money to support an abortion clinic, something you find morally abhorrent.

That's where stricter penalties come in, to deter people from doing those things. Only drug I believe should be legalized is marijuana. As for abortion, if you don't want a child then either keep your pants up or use protection and/or birth control. These are all things we need the state for to enforce.

The government is needed to protect minorities? If I were a minority; I'd want the government to get the hell away from me, not 'protect' me. One in ten black males are in prison, and many more are ex-cons, who are prevented from ever living a normal life, all because of our war on drugs. Arab males are constantly being discriminated against by border and airline security, and even sometimes being locked up in Guantanamo indefinitely. Rather than minorities needing the government to protect them from discrimination, I would argue that minorities need protection from the government.

And no, I'm just as much against the profiling of Arab males, blacks and everybody else as you are which also means I'm against any hate speech that can cause harm. We don't need another holocaust-esque scenario. However, there is a need for government social programs in order to help the poor. I grew up poor so I can very well say that without many of these programs so many people would be f*cked.
I-am-a-panda
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8/20/2010 12:33:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:30:05 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/20/2010 12:13:32 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:

The government is needed to protect minorities? If I were a minority; I'd want the government to get the hell away from me, not 'protect' me. One in ten black males are in prison, and many more are ex-cons, who are prevented from ever living a normal life, all because of our war on drugs. Arab males are constantly being discriminated against by border and airline security, and even sometimes being locked up in Guantanamo indefinitely. Rather than minorities needing the government to protect them from discrimination, I would argue that minorities need protection from the government.

And no, I'm just as much against the profiling of Arab males, blacks and everybody else as you are which also means I'm against any hate speech that can cause harm. We don't need another holocaust-esque scenario. However, there is a need for government social programs in order to help the poor. I grew up poor so I can very well say that without many of these programs so many people would be f*cked.

Lol, you're arguing from the perspective of the poor. Penn and teller describe it well.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/20/2010 12:33:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I take it you'll be smashing your evil computer. I'm sure it has corporate parts.

Parts that got to you cheaper because they were made with an efficient economic organization. One no one has to join if they don't want to.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Reasoning
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8/20/2010 12:36:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:30:32 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/20/2010 12:25:16 PM, Reasoning wrote:
http://www.debate.org...

Oh, didn't see that. Sorry.

I'm an agorist, fyi.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
InsertNameHere
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8/20/2010 12:36:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:33:37 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Lol, you're arguing from the perspective of the poor. Penn and teller describe it well.

People have a moral obligation to help out others. I know humans are naturally greedy, but that's where the free market aspect comes in.
feverish
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8/20/2010 12:38:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 11:35:34 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I have been looking into this system out of interest sparked by my bf(don't ask...). It seems interesting enough, a free-market economy created through the black market, leading to abolishing large corporations(which I despise). So thoughts?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

At 8/20/2010 12:30:32 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/20/2010 12:25:16 PM, Reasoning wrote:
http://www.debate.org...

Oh, didn't see that. Sorry.

I was about to say that this sounds a lot like Reasoning's ideas lol.
LaissezFaire
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8/20/2010 12:38:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
That's where stricter penalties come in, to deter people from doing those things. Only drug I believe should be legalized is marijuana. As for abortion, if you don't want a child then either keep your pants up or use protection and/or birth control. These are all things we need the state for to enforce.
Stricter penalties are going to solve the problems caused by strict penalties themselves? And you didn't address my main concern. The War on Drugs causes the gangs and cartels, the gangs and cartels kill civilians. Even if you still support the war on drugs, how can you morally justify murdering me because I refuse to support a policy that kills thousands of innocent people?

And no, I'm just as much against the profiling of Arab males, blacks and everybody else as you are which also means I'm against any hate speech that can cause harm. We don't need another holocaust-esque scenario. However, there is a need for government social programs in order to help the poor. I grew up poor so I can very well say that without many of these programs so many people would be f*cked.
What evidence is there that these government social programs even help the poor? Take my countries 'Great Society' program in the 60s. Before it, the poverty rate had been declining by about 1% a year. After, it stopped declining completely, and stayed stagnant. Private charity is better at helping poor people; and there's a mountain of evidence backing that up. How could you morally justify killing me if I were to give my money to private charity instead of inefficient government welfare schemes?
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Reasoning
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8/20/2010 12:38:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Alongside Night is a great book, btw. You should read it.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
feverish
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8/20/2010 12:41:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:33:41 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I take it you'll be smashing your evil computer. I'm sure it has corporate parts.

Shouldn't you be smashing yours up, since it's production was partly enabled and regulated by an evil government?

Shouldn't you be smashing up that publicly funded school you attend?
I-am-a-panda
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8/20/2010 12:43:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:36:38 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/20/2010 12:33:37 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Lol, you're arguing from the perspective of the poor. Penn and teller describe it well.

People have a moral obligation to help out others. I know humans are naturally greedy, but that's where the free market aspect comes in.

And this moral obligation comes from where? And why should this moral obligation be instigated by the guv'ment? If people do have a moral obligation it should be done through charity, no?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
InsertNameHere
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8/20/2010 12:44:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:43:03 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

And this moral obligation comes from where? And why should this moral obligation be instigated by the guv'ment? If people do have a moral obligation it should be done through charity, no?

Charity doesn't do sh*t, at least not the ones I have seen.
InsertNameHere
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8/20/2010 12:45:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:41:50 PM, feverish wrote:
At 8/20/2010 12:33:41 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I take it you'll be smashing your evil computer. I'm sure it has corporate parts.

Shouldn't you be smashing yours up, since it's production was partly enabled and regulated by an evil government?

Shouldn't you be smashing up that publicly funded school you attend?

Lol.
I-am-a-panda
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8/20/2010 12:46:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:44:45 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/20/2010 12:43:03 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

And this moral obligation comes from where? And why should this moral obligation be instigated by the guv'ment? If people do have a moral obligation it should be done through charity, no?

Charity doesn't do sh*t, at least not the ones I have seen.

I'm guessing because the government is taxing people, that any money which would go into charities goes into the guvmint instead, and people think their need to give to charity is fulfilled by the government. Double whammy right there.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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8/20/2010 12:46:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/20/2010 12:41:50 PM, feverish wrote:
At 8/20/2010 12:33:41 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I take it you'll be smashing your evil computer. I'm sure it has corporate parts.

Shouldn't you be smashing yours up, since it's production was partly enabled and regulated by an evil government?
I have to pay the government whether I get anything or not. Since, therefore, the price is not connected to the receipt of good, taking it does not constitute an evaluation "This is good for the price."

However, purchasing something from a voluntary corporation DOES constitute an evaluation "This is good for the price."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.