Total Posts:34|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Liberty and Death

Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I was talking to this conservative at work the other day and we were debating George Bush and the Patriot Act and all that. I was saying that the Patriot Act is almost the most unpatriotic legislation ever passed by the US government, because it strips down our privacy, and several freedoms listed in the Bill of Rights. And I was complaining about violation of privacy in the airport, internet, and other public venues, and his main point was, "when do you put safety of yourself in others above liberty?". You know, for him and others, safety is more important than freedom, or so it seems to me. I always hated bills like the Patriot act and despised this phony bologna war on terror because it violated several of my supposed rights, and even if the terrorists would attack if we lifted at least most of these security measures, my rational is, the probability of me or anyone I give a crap about being a victim are astronomical, and also,

whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death?"

Isn't that what America was founded on? A group of militia with hunting rifles taking on the best military in the world.

Isn't valuing freedom over life a large part of the American ideal?

Isn't that the patriotic thing to do?

Idk, but what do you think?

Do you value life over liberty?

Or liberty over life?

Where do you draw the line?

I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything, so please don't attack me, I'm just curious as to where others draw the line, because I know it's different for every person.
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
ben2974
Posts: 767
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 11:37:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I was talking to this conservative at work the other day and we were debating George Bush and the Patriot Act and all that. I was saying that the Patriot Act is almost the most unpatriotic legislation ever passed by the US government, because it strips down our privacy, and several freedoms listed in the Bill of Rights. And I was complaining about violation of privacy in the airport, internet, and other public venues, and his main point was, "when do you put safety of yourself in others above liberty?". You know, for him and others, safety is more important than freedom, or so it seems to me. I always hated bills like the Patriot act and despised this phony bologna war on terror because it violated several of my supposed rights, and even if the terrorists would attack if we lifted at least most of these security measures, my rational is, the probability of me or anyone I give a crap about being a victim are astronomical, and also,

whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death?"

Isn't that what America was founded on? A group of militia with hunting rifles taking on the best military in the world.

Isn't valuing freedom over life a large part of the American ideal?

Isn't that the patriotic thing to do?

Idk, but what do you think?

Do you value life over liberty?

Or liberty over life?

Where do you draw the line?

I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything, so please don't attack me, I'm just curious as to where others draw the line, because I know it's different for every person.

I couldn't give two sh!ts about the NSA spying on me and having recorded every word that came out of my mouth. I have nothing to hide. I also find very little to be "private" to me. And, even then, who gives 2 sh!ts about what some random surveillance agent picks up about me. I won't know who does and there's nothing s/he can do with such "private" information. It's small price to pay (if there's a price here at all . . .) for our own security.

I value life AND liberty. But people take privacy too strictly.
Gmork
Posts: 82
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 11:58:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I was talking to this conservative at work the other day and we were debating George Bush and the Patriot Act and all that. I was saying that the Patriot Act is almost the most unpatriotic legislation ever passed by the US government, because it strips down our privacy, and several freedoms listed in the Bill of Rights. And I was complaining about violation of privacy in the airport, internet, and other public venues, and his main point was, "when do you put safety of yourself in others above liberty?". You know, for him and others, safety is more important than freedom, or so it seems to me. I always hated bills like the Patriot act and despised this phony bologna war on terror because it violated several of my supposed rights, and even if the terrorists would attack if we lifted at least most of these security measures, my rational is, the probability of me or anyone I give a crap about being a victim are astronomical, and also,

whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death?"

Isn't that what America was founded on? A group of militia with hunting rifles taking on the best military in the world.

Isn't valuing freedom over life a large part of the American ideal?

Isn't that the patriotic thing to do?

Idk, but what do you think?

Do you value life over liberty?

Or liberty over life?

Where do you draw the line?

I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything, so please don't attack me, I'm just curious as to where others draw the line, because I know it's different for every person.

Let's start with the obvious question: how do you define liberty? Why is the internet private in your opinion? It's not your fiber line, server, or your website.
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 12:11:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I couldn't give two sh!ts about the NSA spying on me and having recorded every word that came out of my mouth. I have nothing to hide. I also find very little to be "private" to me. And, even then, who gives 2 sh!ts about what some random surveillance agent picks up about me. I won't know who does and there's nothing s/he can do with such "private" information. It's small price to pay (if there's a price here at all . . .) for our own security.

I value life AND liberty. But people take privacy too strictly.

I value life and liberty as well; that's not the question, the question is what do you value more and to what extent
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 12:15:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 11:58:05 AM, Gmork wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I was talking to this conservative at work the other day and we were debating George Bush and the Patriot Act and all that. I was saying that the Patriot Act is almost the most unpatriotic legislation ever passed by the US government, because it strips down our privacy, and several freedoms listed in the Bill of Rights. And I was complaining about violation of privacy in the airport, internet, and other public venues, and his main point was, "when do you put safety of yourself in others above liberty?". You know, for him and others, safety is more important than freedom, or so it seems to me. I always hated bills like the Patriot act and despised this phony bologna war on terror because it violated several of my supposed rights, and even if the terrorists would attack if we lifted at least most of these security measures, my rational is, the probability of me or anyone I give a crap about being a victim are astronomical, and also,

whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death?"

Isn't that what America was founded on? A group of militia with hunting rifles taking on the best military in the world.

Isn't valuing freedom over life a large part of the American ideal?

Isn't that the patriotic thing to do?

Idk, but what do you think?

Do you value life over liberty?

Or liberty over life?

Where do you draw the line?

I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything, so please don't attack me, I'm just curious as to where others draw the line, because I know it's different for every person.

Let's start with the obvious question: how do you define liberty? Why is the internet private in your opinion? It's not your fiber line, server, or your website.

I'm talking about personal emails and personal information. I'm aware that this and most things on the internet are public information, so that's why I usually don't lean too much on internet privacy and such. I'm talking about airport security, civil forfeiture and the fact that, in a lot of instances, the police don't need a warrant to search you or your property, or tap your phone lines and such. And by liberty, I mean the freedoms and privileges warranted to American civilians in our founding documents.
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
Gmork
Posts: 82
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 12:28:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 12:15:07 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:58:05 AM, Gmork wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I was talking to this conservative at work the other day and we were debating George Bush and the Patriot Act and all that. I was saying that the Patriot Act is almost the most unpatriotic legislation ever passed by the US government, because it strips down our privacy, and several freedoms listed in the Bill of Rights. And I was complaining about violation of privacy in the airport, internet, and other public venues, and his main point was, "when do you put safety of yourself in others above liberty?". You know, for him and others, safety is more important than freedom, or so it seems to me. I always hated bills like the Patriot act and despised this phony bologna war on terror because it violated several of my supposed rights, and even if the terrorists would attack if we lifted at least most of these security measures, my rational is, the probability of me or anyone I give a crap about being a victim are astronomical, and also,

whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death?"

Isn't that what America was founded on? A group of militia with hunting rifles taking on the best military in the world.

Isn't valuing freedom over life a large part of the American ideal?

Isn't that the patriotic thing to do?

Idk, but what do you think?

Do you value life over liberty?

Or liberty over life?

Where do you draw the line?

I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything, so please don't attack me, I'm just curious as to where others draw the line, because I know it's different for every person.

Let's start with the obvious question: how do you define liberty? Why is the internet private in your opinion? It's not your fiber line, server, or your website.

I'm talking about personal emails and personal information. I'm aware that this and most things on the internet are public information, so that's why I usually don't lean too much on internet privacy and such. I'm talking about airport security, civil forfeiture and the fact that, in a lot of instances, the police don't need a warrant to search you or your property, or tap your phone lines and such. And by liberty, I mean the freedoms and privileges warranted to American civilians in our founding documents.

I ask you again, what is liberty? Can you define it? It is quite important.
The things you site appear to be untrue or are not inherently private, which you suggest they are. Boarding a plane is not private. If the NSA were airport workers instead of government agents, would you still make the same complaint? Personal email requires non-private servers and websites, so, why are those private? I am unaware of police being able to not have a warrant to search you, except with probable cause.
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 12:38:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I ask you again, what is liberty? Can you define it? It is quite important.
The things you site appear to be untrue or are not inherently private, which you suggest they are. Boarding a plane is not private. If the NSA were airport workers instead of government agents, would you still make the same complaint? Personal email requires non-private servers and websites, so, why are those private? I am unaware of police being able to not have a warrant to search you, except with probable cause.

"... by liberty, I mean the freedoms and privileges warranted to American civilians in our founding documents." private emails and private phone calls are private and should be so, that is why they are called private. Yes, If the NSA were airport workers and the only ones responsible for the grope fest you go through to board a plane, then yes, I'd be making the same complaint. It's not boarding the plane that is private, it is my genitals that are private. I've seen people try and bring an empty zippo lighter on a plane and then go through three hours of questioning, I've seen them search a decrepit old man like a convict, and I was in a house that was broken into by the police with no warrant. Probable cause means nothing, because the police could just say they had probable cause, when they just want to take something for you for "evidence", the police aren't these flawless, law abiding gods, they are people that just as subject to greed and corruption as anyone else.
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 12:42:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I ask you again, what is liberty? Can you define it? It is quite important.
The things you site appear to be untrue or are not inherently private, which you suggest they are. Boarding a plane is not private. If the NSA were airport workers instead of government agents, would you still make the same complaint? Personal email requires non-private servers and websites, so, why are those private? I am unaware of police being able to not have a warrant to search you, except with probable cause.

As I originally stated, I don't want to be inflammatory and I don't want fights about this. Invasion of privacy and constitutional rights by the NSA and the police are a fact, I've seen the mainstream news stories, I've heard what the politicians said, I've heard NSA agents confess, and I've seen it with my own two eyes. So, answer my original questions, please
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
ben2974
Posts: 767
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 12:43:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 12:11:22 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I couldn't give two sh!ts about the NSA spying on me and having recorded every word that came out of my mouth. I have nothing to hide. I also find very little to be "private" to me. And, even then, who gives 2 sh!ts about what some random surveillance agent picks up about me. I won't know who does and there's nothing s/he can do with such "private" information. It's small price to pay (if there's a price here at all . . .) for our own security.

I value life AND liberty. But people take privacy too strictly.

I value life and liberty as well; that's not the question, the question is what do you value more and to what extent

My point was that infringing privacy in the manner described is negligible when discussing the prospect and value of liberty.
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 12:44:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 12:43:31 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 12:11:22 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I couldn't give two sh!ts about the NSA spying on me and having recorded every word that came out of my mouth. I have nothing to hide. I also find very little to be "private" to me. And, even then, who gives 2 sh!ts about what some random surveillance agent picks up about me. I won't know who does and there's nothing s/he can do with such "private" information. It's small price to pay (if there's a price here at all . . .) for our own security.

I value life AND liberty. But people take privacy too strictly.

I value life and liberty as well; that's not the question, the question is what do you value more and to what extent


My point was that infringing privacy in the manner described is negligible when discussing the prospect and value of liberty.

To you it is, to me it isn't. There are several reasons for this we could discuss, but I feel no desire to as of now.
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
Gmork
Posts: 82
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 1:09:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 12:38:55 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I ask you again, what is liberty? Can you define it? It is quite important.
The things you site appear to be untrue or are not inherently private, which you suggest they are. Boarding a plane is not private. If the NSA were airport workers instead of government agents, would you still make the same complaint? Personal email requires non-private servers and websites, so, why are those private? I am unaware of police being able to not have a warrant to search you, except with probable cause.

"... by liberty, I mean the freedoms and privileges warranted to American civilians in our founding documents." private emails and private phone calls are private and should be so, that is why they are called private. Yes, If the NSA were airport workers and the only ones responsible for the grope fest you go through to board a plane, then yes, I'd be making the same complaint. It's not boarding the plane that is private, it is my genitals that are private. I've seen people try and bring an empty zippo lighter on a plane and then go through three hours of questioning, I've seen them search a decrepit old man like a convict, and I was in a house that was broken into by the police with no warrant. Probable cause means nothing, because the police could just say they had probable cause, when they just want to take something for you for "evidence", the police aren't these flawless, law abiding gods, they are people that just as subject to greed and corruption as anyone else.

All of this is consented to, except for the police. So, I am not sure what this has to do with liberty. Therefore, I cannot answer your question.
I am curious, though, as to the circumstances of the house. It was not your house, it seems. If it was not, then perhaps consent was given there, too.
ben2974
Posts: 767
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 1:29:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 12:44:30 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
At 7/17/2015 12:43:31 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 12:11:22 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I couldn't give two sh!ts about the NSA spying on me and having recorded every word that came out of my mouth. I have nothing to hide. I also find very little to be "private" to me. And, even then, who gives 2 sh!ts about what some random surveillance agent picks up about me. I won't know who does and there's nothing s/he can do with such "private" information. It's small price to pay (if there's a price here at all . . .) for our own security.

I value life AND liberty. But people take privacy too strictly.

I value life and liberty as well; that's not the question, the question is what do you value more and to what extent


My point was that infringing privacy in the manner described is negligible when discussing the prospect and value of liberty.

To you it is, to me it isn't. There are several reasons for this we could discuss, but I feel no desire to as of now.

You asked a lot of questions in the OP and it looked like you were interested in discussion. I gave you my opinion, and you flatly disagreed without wanting to expand on that. Excuse me!
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 1:29:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 1:09:21 PM, Gmork wrote:
At 7/17/2015 12:38:55 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I ask you again, what is liberty? Can you define it? It is quite important.
The things you site appear to be untrue or are not inherently private, which you suggest they are. Boarding a plane is not private. If the NSA were airport workers instead of government agents, would you still make the same complaint? Personal email requires non-private servers and websites, so, why are those private? I am unaware of police being able to not have a warrant to search you, except with probable cause.

"... by liberty, I mean the freedoms and privileges warranted to American civilians in our founding documents." private emails and private phone calls are private and should be so, that is why they are called private. Yes, If the NSA were airport workers and the only ones responsible for the grope fest you go through to board a plane, then yes, I'd be making the same complaint. It's not boarding the plane that is private, it is my genitals that are private. I've seen people try and bring an empty zippo lighter on a plane and then go through three hours of questioning, I've seen them search a decrepit old man like a convict, and I was in a house that was broken into by the police with no warrant. Probable cause means nothing, because the police could just say they had probable cause, when they just want to take something for you for "evidence", the police aren't these flawless, law abiding gods, they are people that just as subject to greed and corruption as anyone else.

All of this is consented to, except for the police. So, I am not sure what this has to do with liberty. Therefore, I cannot answer your question.
I am curious, though, as to the circumstances of the house. It was not your house, it seems. If it was not, then perhaps consent was given there, too.

I'm just saying that it is a pain in the a$$ to get on a plane. All I'm saying is that the Patriot Act is warranting far too much power to the government; that's all I'm saying. And no, consent was not given in the event of the house; me and the owner were sitting in his living room and two police cruisers show up. They bang on the door aggressively, he opens and ask for a warrant, but they just push past us and demand that we stand by as they search the house for drugs, because the guys brother-in-law is a known drug dealer in the area and he hangs around that house a lot. So when the police got wind of a lot of drugs coming in, they assumed it was the guys brother-in-law and broke down my friend's door looking for him and his stash.
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 1:32:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:


You should have given him the ol Ben Franklin quote "Those who would trade in a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserve neither and will lose both."
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 1:34:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 1:29:01 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 12:44:30 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
At 7/17/2015 12:43:31 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 12:11:22 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I couldn't give two sh!ts about the NSA spying on me and having recorded every word that came out of my mouth. I have nothing to hide. I also find very little to be "private" to me. And, even then, who gives 2 sh!ts about what some random surveillance agent picks up about me. I won't know who does and there's nothing s/he can do with such "private" information. It's small price to pay (if there's a price here at all . . .) for our own security.

I value life AND liberty. But people take privacy too strictly.

I value life and liberty as well; that's not the question, the question is what do you value more and to what extent


My point was that infringing privacy in the manner described is negligible when discussing the prospect and value of liberty.

To you it is, to me it isn't. There are several reasons for this we could discuss, but I feel no desire to as of now.

You asked a lot of questions in the OP and it looked like you were interested in discussion. I gave you my opinion, and you flatly disagreed without wanting to expand on that. Excuse me!

I wasn't looking for a discussion or a debate on whether or not privacy is necessary, I am looking for a discussion, or at least answers to the questions I asked. You only addressed one and it wasn't clear enough for me to understand nor a complete answer. I wasn't trying to be aggressive, I offer my apologies if it sounded that way. You said you value liberty and life, but I was asking which do you value more.
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 1:35:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 1:32:38 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:


You should have given him the ol Ben Franklin quote "Those who would trade in a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserve neither and will lose both."

I'm glad to see someone's on my side. Is that how you feel about this topic?
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 2:08:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 1:35:07 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:32:38 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:


You should have given him the ol Ben Franklin quote "Those who would trade in a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserve neither and will lose both."

I'm glad to see someone's on my side. Is that how you feel about this topic?

I think there's a balance to be made. True uninhibited freedom would lead to anarchy, the other would be a totalitarian state. I'd like to know how effective the patriot act has been at preventing terrorism.
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 2:12:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 2:08:23 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:35:07 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:32:38 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:


You should have given him the ol Ben Franklin quote "Those who would trade in a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserve neither and will lose both."

I'm glad to see someone's on my side. Is that how you feel about this topic?

I think there's a balance to be made. True uninhibited freedom would lead to anarchy, the other would be a totalitarian state. I'd like to know how effective the patriot act has been at preventing terrorism.

Well, I'm not talking about like anarchy, I just mean the constitution, and I like to have my privacy from the government
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
Gmork
Posts: 82
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 2:30:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 1:32:38 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:


You should have given him the ol Ben Franklin quote "Those who would trade in a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserve neither and will lose both."

Is this referring to me?
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 2:41:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 2:30:19 PM, Gmork wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:32:38 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:


You should have given him the ol Ben Franklin quote "Those who would trade in a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserve neither and will lose both."

Is this referring to me?

idk who u r.
Gmork
Posts: 82
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 2:41:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 1:29:39 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:09:21 PM, Gmork wrote:
At 7/17/2015 12:38:55 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I ask you again, what is liberty? Can you define it? It is quite important.
The things you site appear to be untrue or are not inherently private, which you suggest they are. Boarding a plane is not private. If the NSA were airport workers instead of government agents, would you still make the same complaint? Personal email requires non-private servers and websites, so, why are those private? I am unaware of police being able to not have a warrant to search you, except with probable cause.

"... by liberty, I mean the freedoms and privileges warranted to American civilians in our founding documents." private emails and private phone calls are private and should be so, that is why they are called private. Yes, If the NSA were airport workers and the only ones responsible for the grope fest you go through to board a plane, then yes, I'd be making the same complaint. It's not boarding the plane that is private, it is my genitals that are private. I've seen people try and bring an empty zippo lighter on a plane and then go through three hours of questioning, I've seen them search a decrepit old man like a convict, and I was in a house that was broken into by the police with no warrant. Probable cause means nothing, because the police could just say they had probable cause, when they just want to take something for you for "evidence", the police aren't these flawless, law abiding gods, they are people that just as subject to greed and corruption as anyone else.

All of this is consented to, except for the police. So, I am not sure what this has to do with liberty. Therefore, I cannot answer your question.
I am curious, though, as to the circumstances of the house. It was not your house, it seems. If it was not, then perhaps consent was given there, too.

I'm just saying that it is a pain in the a$$ to get on a plane.
And that is not liberty, you have no right to a plane.

All I'm saying is that the Patriot Act is warranting far too much power to the government; that's all I'm saying.
Actually, you are saying much more than that and, yet, not that at all. I do agree it gives too much power, but I doubt we are talking about the same thing. You are saying it affects liberty, but the things you mention are not liberties. Take an email: it is not your website, your server, nor your internet lines that connect you. Why do you claim that hotmail is not violating your liberty if they were to read your email? Is a law that forbids them from doing so violating their liberty to do so? Is the law really violating your liberty if hotmail is giving them the information? It seems hotmail is the one violating your so-called privacy, and giving that information to the feds. So, what you are complaining about I don't fully understand.

And no, consent was not given in the event of the house; me and the owner were sitting in his living room and two police cruisers show up. They bang on the door aggressively, he opens and ask for a warrant, but they just push past us and demand that we stand by as they search the house for drugs, because the guys brother-in-law is a known drug dealer in the area and he hangs around that house a lot. So when the police got wind of a lot of drugs coming in, they assumed it was the guys brother-in-law and broke down my friend's door looking for him and his stash.

First, that is probable cause, IMO, but they should have had a warrant. Are you sure they didn't have one? Why did you not sue? Just because they didn't show you one at the time does not mean they didn't have one, or that one was not on the way, and if they didn't have one, you should have sued or something. I am pretty sure that a warrant does not need to be on the officer's person when executing it.
Second, I could be wrong, and it depends on the state, but I do believe opening the door can be considered an invitation. However, you mention breaking down the door, and the friend opened the door, so one of these is inaccurate.
Gmork
Posts: 82
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 2:42:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 2:41:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 2:30:19 PM, Gmork wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:32:38 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:


You should have given him the ol Ben Franklin quote "Those who would trade in a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserve neither and will lose both."

Is this referring to me?

idk who u r.

I didn't know if the "him" was me or the cops.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 2:43:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 2:12:17 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
At 7/17/2015 2:08:23 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:35:07 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:32:38 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:


You should have given him the ol Ben Franklin quote "Those who would trade in a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserve neither and will lose both."

I'm glad to see someone's on my side. Is that how you feel about this topic?

I think there's a balance to be made. True uninhibited freedom would lead to anarchy, the other would be a totalitarian state. I'd like to know how effective the patriot act has been at preventing terrorism.

Well, I'm not talking about like anarchy, I just mean the constitution, and I like to have my privacy from the government

Ah as far as the Constitution is concerned, yea the NSA and Patriot Act have certainly violated it. But like i said, there must be a balance, it's hard to balance the pragmatism of security with the idealism of freedom.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 2:43:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 2:42:16 PM, Gmork wrote:
At 7/17/2015 2:41:30 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 2:30:19 PM, Gmork wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:32:38 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:26:43 AM, Black-Jesus wrote:


You should have given him the ol Ben Franklin quote "Those who would trade in a little bit of liberty for a little bit of security deserve neither and will lose both."

Is this referring to me?

idk who u r.

I didn't know if the "him" was me or the cops.

Him was referring to the coworker in the OP.
Philocat
Posts: 728
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 2:47:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think you're confusing liberty with privacy. Liberty is just the freedom to do certain things and to live your life as you want to, whereas privacy is the concept of having information about yourself hidden from outside observers. The PATRIOT act mainly inhibits privacy by allowing the NSA to effectively spy on people suspected of terrorism, but this doesn't actually stop the average person from living their lives; it doesn't mean that their liberty is decreased.
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 2:53:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 2:41:31 PM, Gmork wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:29:39 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:09:21 PM, Gmork wrote:
At 7/17/2015 12:38:55 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
I ask you again, what is liberty? Can you define it? It is quite important.
The things you site appear to be untrue or are not inherently private, which you suggest they are. Boarding a plane is not private. If the NSA were airport workers instead of government agents, would you still make the same complaint? Personal email requires non-private servers and websites, so, why are those private? I am unaware of police being able to not have a warrant to search you, except with probable cause.

"... by liberty, I mean the freedoms and privileges warranted to American civilians in our founding documents." private emails and private phone calls are private and should be so, that is why they are called private. Yes, If the NSA were airport workers and the only ones responsible for the grope fest you go through to board a plane, then yes, I'd be making the same complaint. It's not boarding the plane that is private, it is my genitals that are private. I've seen people try and bring an empty zippo lighter on a plane and then go through three hours of questioning, I've seen them search a decrepit old man like a convict, and I was in a house that was broken into by the police with no warrant. Probable cause means nothing, because the police could just say they had probable cause, when they just want to take something for you for "evidence", the police aren't these flawless, law abiding gods, they are people that just as subject to greed and corruption as anyone else.

All of this is consented to, except for the police. So, I am not sure what this has to do with liberty. Therefore, I cannot answer your question.
I am curious, though, as to the circumstances of the house. It was not your house, it seems. If it was not, then perhaps consent was given there, too.

I'm just saying that it is a pain in the a$$ to get on a plane.
And that is not liberty, you have no right to a plane.

All I'm saying is that the Patriot Act is warranting far too much power to the government; that's all I'm saying.
Actually, you are saying much more than that and, yet, not that at all. I do agree it gives too much power, but I doubt we are talking about the same thing. You are saying it affects liberty, but the things you mention are not liberties. Take an email: it is not your website, your server, nor your internet lines that connect you. Why do you claim that hotmail is not violating your liberty if they were to read your email? Is a law that forbids them from doing so violating their liberty to do so? Is the law really violating your liberty if hotmail is giving them the information? It seems hotmail is the one violating your so-called privacy, and giving that information to the feds. So, what you are complaining about I don't fully understand.

And no, consent was not given in the event of the house; me and the owner were sitting in his living room and two police cruisers show up. They bang on the door aggressively, he opens and ask for a warrant, but they just push past us and demand that we stand by as they search the house for drugs, because the guys brother-in-law is a known drug dealer in the area and he hangs around that house a lot. So when the police got wind of a lot of drugs coming in, they assumed it was the guys brother-in-law and broke down my friend's door looking for him and his stash.

First, that is probable cause, IMO, but they should have had a warrant. Are you sure they didn't have one? Why did you not sue? Just because they didn't show you one at the time does not mean they didn't have one, or that one was not on the way, and if they didn't have one, you should have sued or something. I am pretty sure that a warrant does not need to be on the officer's person when executing it.
Second, I could be wrong, and it depends on the state, but I do believe opening the door can be considered an invitation. However, you mention breaking down the door, and the friend opened the door, so one of these is inaccurate.

Why do you keep coming back to the internet thing? I've acknowledge that, I'm aware of what you are saying. Some websites has contracts and some have legal guarantees, some do, not all, some. Privacy is a right Americans are supposed to have. The internet is not a private place, again I've acknowledged that. The only reason the privacy issue keeps coming up is because you keep bringing it up. The warrant does have to be with the police and they have to show it or have explicit permission, such as "come on in". When I said "break down the door" I was exaggerating in my own instance, but in some cases, this does happen. We could've sued, but the guy had already had police barge into his car like that; his family doesn't have a good name in his area, and when he tried to sue the whole case was a massive, judicial jerk-off.
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 3:05:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 2:47:04 PM, Philocat wrote:
I think you're confusing liberty with privacy. Liberty is just the freedom to do certain things and to live your life as you want to, whereas privacy is the concept of having information about yourself hidden from outside observers. The PATRIOT act mainly inhibits privacy by allowing the NSA to effectively spy on people suspected of terrorism, but this doesn't actually stop the average person from living their lives; it doesn't mean that their liberty is decreased.

Privacy is a right; therefore a liberty. Not only that but the Patriot Act violates, the 1st amendment, 4th amendment, and 6th amendment. I'm not just complaining about the privacy, but these issues as well. Privacy is something that I would like to have and have the US government butt the hell out. I'm sorry if I'm overreacting to your particular response, Philocat, but I'm starting to get very aggravated. I HATE the Patriot Act because it gives too much power to the government, including the right to spy on US citizens without probable cause nor a warrant, and it allows several of our liberties mentioned in the constitution and stated by the US supreme court such as the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, as well as the several amendments and clauses that guarantee privacy as stated by the United States Supreme Court to become toilet paper.

I value everything in the constitution over my own safety. If it came down to the Patriot Act still being active and my possible death, I'd choose my possible death. All I'm asking is this and other similar questions. If you don't see privacy as a right, say so, but still answer the actual questions. If you have a fundamental disagreement with me, then just don't answer my original forum post. If you don't agree that the Patriot Act violates your rights, then don't answer mt original forum post.
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
Philocat
Posts: 728
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 4:41:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 3:05:42 PM, Black-Jesus wrote:
At 7/17/2015 2:47:04 PM, Philocat wrote:
I think you're confusing liberty with privacy. Liberty is just the freedom to do certain things and to live your life as you want to, whereas privacy is the concept of having information about yourself hidden from outside observers. The PATRIOT act mainly inhibits privacy by allowing the NSA to effectively spy on people suspected of terrorism, but this doesn't actually stop the average person from living their lives; it doesn't mean that their liberty is decreased.

Privacy is a right; therefore a liberty. Not only that but the Patriot Act violates, the 1st amendment, 4th amendment, and 6th amendment. I'm not just complaining about the privacy, but these issues as well. Privacy is something that I would like to have and have the US government butt the hell out. I'm sorry if I'm overreacting to your particular response, Philocat, but I'm starting to get very aggravated. I HATE the Patriot Act because it gives too much power to the government, including the right to spy on US citizens without probable cause nor a warrant, and it allows several of our liberties mentioned in the constitution and stated by the US supreme court such as the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, as well as the several amendments and clauses that guarantee privacy as stated by the United States Supreme Court to become toilet paper.

I value everything in the constitution over my own safety. If it came down to the Patriot Act still being active and my possible death, I'd choose my possible death. All I'm asking is this and other similar questions. If you don't see privacy as a right, say so, but still answer the actual questions. If you have a fundamental disagreement with me, then just don't answer my original forum post. If you don't agree that the Patriot Act violates your rights, then don't answer mt original forum post.

I understand you are very against the patriot act, so I would just like to clarify that I am not very much in support of it either (mainly because I'm not American). I'm just putting the other side of the argument.

However, I don't see how this act violates anything in the first, fourth, fifth or sixth amendments. From what I can see, the act isn't unconstitutional.

But even if there is a right to privacy, is it inalienable? Furthermore, rights are only important insofar as they protect the individual from harm, pain or unhappiness. Yet in the case of NSA spying, it isn't harmful. For the law-abiding citizen, the existence of the patriot act doesn't actually have any negative effects.
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 4:44:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I understand you are very against the patriot act, so I would just like to clarify that I am not very much in support of it either (mainly because I'm not American). I'm just putting the other side of the argument.

However, I don't see how this act violates anything in the first, fourth, fifth or sixth amendments. From what I can see, the act isn't unconstitutional.

But even if there is a right to privacy, is it inalienable? Furthermore, rights are only important insofar as they protect the individual from harm, pain or unhappiness. Yet in the case of NSA spying, it isn't harmful. For the law-abiding citizen, the existence of the patriot act doesn't actually have any negative effects.

All rights are legally unalienable. http://www.scn.org..., that is the address to a page that'll explain where the Patriot Act violates the constitution.
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...
Black-Jesus
Posts: 60
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2015 4:47:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I understand you are very against the patriot act, so I would just like to clarify that I am not very much in support of it either (mainly because I'm not American). I'm just putting the other side of the argument.

However, I don't see how this act violates anything in the first, fourth, fifth or sixth amendments. From what I can see, the act isn't unconstitutional.

But even if there is a right to privacy, is it inalienable? Furthermore, rights are only important insofar as they protect the individual from harm, pain or unhappiness. Yet in the case of NSA spying, it isn't harmful. For the law-abiding citizen, the existence of the patriot act doesn't actually have any negative effects.

And it's not so much the actual effects on the people, but the principle of it. If you start letting the government trample on you then they most definitely will trample you to death.
Vote on my newest debate(s):
Earth: Spherical vs Flat: http://www.debate.org...