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A good argument against gun registration

thett3
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7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Fly
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7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
thett3
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7/20/2015 9:35:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?

I'm just being rhetorical mostly. But this is exactly what gun owners fear when they talk about registration--suddenly all of their information is public. And on such a divisive issue in a country as polarized as it is, that's actual danger.

There's actually a map of gun owners in NYC.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Fly
Posts: 2,044
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7/20/2015 9:47:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 9:35:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?

I'm just being rhetorical mostly. But this is exactly what gun owners fear when they talk about registration--suddenly all of their information is public. And on such a divisive issue in a country as polarized as it is, that's actual danger.

There's actually a map of gun owners in NYC.

If one could show how the gun registry has actually caused palpable harm to those registered, I would be very interested to see that. It seems that it has been in place for two years? Enough time to see if a disturbing trend has developed...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
thett3
Posts: 14,338
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7/20/2015 9:48:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 9:47:07 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:35:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?

I'm just being rhetorical mostly. But this is exactly what gun owners fear when they talk about registration--suddenly all of their information is public. And on such a divisive issue in a country as polarized as it is, that's actual danger.

There's actually a map of gun owners in NYC.

If one could show how the gun registry has actually caused palpable harm to those registered, I would be very interested to see that. It seems that it has been in place for two years? Enough time to see if a disturbing trend has developed...

You can't honestly think this is okay. Would you be comfortable if a website released a list containing the names of all atheists in a certain area? And drew up an interactive map showing where these people lived?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
Posts: 14,338
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7/20/2015 9:51:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 9:47:07 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:35:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?

I'm just being rhetorical mostly. But this is exactly what gun owners fear when they talk about registration--suddenly all of their information is public. And on such a divisive issue in a country as polarized as it is, that's actual danger.

There's actually a map of gun owners in NYC.

If one could show how the gun registry has actually caused palpable harm to those registered, I would be very interested to see that. It seems that it has been in place for two years? Enough time to see if a disturbing trend has developed...

Not to mention the harm to others. This tells criminals who has guns and where they live--allowing them to know who not to rob, or who TO rob if they want to steal a gun to use for another crime.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Fly
Posts: 2,044
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7/20/2015 10:10:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 9:48:57 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:47:07 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:35:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?

I'm just being rhetorical mostly. But this is exactly what gun owners fear when they talk about registration--suddenly all of their information is public. And on such a divisive issue in a country as polarized as it is, that's actual danger.

There's actually a map of gun owners in NYC.

If one could show how the gun registry has actually caused palpable harm to those registered, I would be very interested to see that. It seems that it has been in place for two years? Enough time to see if a disturbing trend has developed...

You can't honestly think this is okay. Would you be comfortable if a website released a list containing the names of all atheists in a certain area? And drew up an interactive map showing where these people lived?

Your problem seems to be with the Freedom of Information Act more than anything. Note that you supplied an article that states just how reluctant agencies are to give out address information, by the way.

My info is already a matter of public record by virtue of my licensing, so I am speaking from the inside, so to speak.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
thett3
Posts: 14,338
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7/20/2015 10:14:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 10:10:10 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:48:57 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:47:07 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:35:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?

I'm just being rhetorical mostly. But this is exactly what gun owners fear when they talk about registration--suddenly all of their information is public. And on such a divisive issue in a country as polarized as it is, that's actual danger.

There's actually a map of gun owners in NYC.

If one could show how the gun registry has actually caused palpable harm to those registered, I would be very interested to see that. It seems that it has been in place for two years? Enough time to see if a disturbing trend has developed...

You can't honestly think this is okay. Would you be comfortable if a website released a list containing the names of all atheists in a certain area? And drew up an interactive map showing where these people lived?

Your problem seems to be with the Freedom of Information Act more than anything. Note that you supplied an article that states just how reluctant agencies are to give out address information, by the way.

I know. Which is why I said I was being rhetorical. Although now that I know this, I would *certainly* oppose any gun registration that becomes a matter of public record. And that's just the problem...it doesn't work in a vacuum, but rather like all policy interacts with a variety of other laws. Like I said, this is *exactly* what people are afraid of when they're forced to give out any information.

They were reluctant to give the information out because they realized this wasn't the intent of their sloppily written law, but it doesn't matter and they had to fork over the information. I would want an organization as incompetent as that knowing as little about me as possible, thanks.


My info is already a matter of public record by virtue of my licensing, so I am speaking from the inside, so to speak.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Skynet
Posts: 674
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7/20/2015 10:20:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 9:47:07 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:35:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?

I'm just being rhetorical mostly. But this is exactly what gun owners fear when they talk about registration--suddenly all of their information is public. And on such a divisive issue in a country as polarized as it is, that's actual danger.

There's actually a map of gun owners in NYC.

If one could show how the gun registry has actually caused palpable harm to those registered, I would be very interested to see that. It seems that it has been in place for two years? Enough time to see if a disturbing trend has developed...

I agree with Gawker, but they don't go far enough.

Blacks and Hispanics are more likely to cause crime, statistically. We should have a map of their names and addresses made public. Muslims, are also statistically more likely to be Muslim terrorists. We need to know who they are and where they live. People with AIDS pose more of a health risk to the public, they should be known, as well as their addresses. Hybrid and electric car owners are statistically more likely to permit themselves to take an immoral action because what they have done to benefit the planet through their purchase makes up for it. We need to keep track of them, too. Genital warts causes cervical cancer in females, which can be deadly. Everyone with Human pamplona virus should also be tracked and made public. You know, for the greater good.

(If you don't understand satire, please, report me for saying this.)
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Fly
Posts: 2,044
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7/20/2015 10:21:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 9:51:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:47:07 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:35:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?

I'm just being rhetorical mostly. But this is exactly what gun owners fear when they talk about registration--suddenly all of their information is public. And on such a divisive issue in a country as polarized as it is, that's actual danger.

There's actually a map of gun owners in NYC.

If one could show how the gun registry has actually caused palpable harm to those registered, I would be very interested to see that. It seems that it has been in place for two years? Enough time to see if a disturbing trend has developed...

Not to mention the harm to others. This tells criminals who has guns and where they live--allowing them to know who not to rob, or who TO rob if they want to steal a gun to use for another crime.

Uh, I already stated my interest in the data on this possibility. Got any? Your cited article did not.

But just off the top of my head-- it seems unlikely to me that thieves would be more motivated to invade the house of a person who is decidedly armed. Isn't that much of the argument for having a gun in the first place? That factor should counteract the motive of stealing weapons in a hopefully vacant house. Even with a vacant house, a burglar runs the risk of an armed owner coming home unexpectedly.

Ever hear the story of the guy who tried to rob a gun store? He got shot.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
thett3
Posts: 14,338
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7/20/2015 10:32:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 10:21:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:51:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:47:07 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:35:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?

I'm just being rhetorical mostly. But this is exactly what gun owners fear when they talk about registration--suddenly all of their information is public. And on such a divisive issue in a country as polarized as it is, that's actual danger.

There's actually a map of gun owners in NYC.

If one could show how the gun registry has actually caused palpable harm to those registered, I would be very interested to see that. It seems that it has been in place for two years? Enough time to see if a disturbing trend has developed...

Not to mention the harm to others. This tells criminals who has guns and where they live--allowing them to know who not to rob, or who TO rob if they want to steal a gun to use for another crime.

Uh, I already stated my interest in the data on this possibility. Got any? Your cited article did not.

Well obviously the article didn't...since it was the article that released the information in the first place. Considering the vast amounts of crime committed in NYC, to be able to attribute with any certainty if a specific crime made use of this information is not something I'm interested in doing. The point is, beyond the fact that it's totally asinine to release this kind of information on people, it's logical to assume that criminals could make use of this information in one way or another.


But just off the top of my head-- it seems unlikely to me that thieves would be more motivated to invade the house of a person who is decidedly armed.

You could always wait til they were out of the house. I agree though, these people aren't likely to be robbed--I made that argument because leftists often make the argument that guns in civilian hands often get stolen and then used in crime and therefore are bad. It's a bad argument, but this preempts it.

Isn't that much of the argument for having a gun in the first place? That factor should counteract the motive of stealing weapons in a hopefully vacant house. Even with a vacant house, a burglar runs the risk of an armed owner coming home unexpectedly.

Right. So basically this map puts in danger everyone who didn't go through the bureaucratic nightmare of trying to get a gun in NYC. Would you really want criminals knowing who is unarmed and therefore can easily be pushed around? Doesn't sound like good policy to me.

Not to mention the ethics of the situation, which is my major issue with it. You never answered if you would be comfortable with a national atheist registry. I know I wouldn't. In this country we have a very dangerous mix of hyper polarization and a penchant for large scale moral panic and mobbing on both sides of the political spectrum. I certainly would not want my name and address as public record on some divisive issue. It seems that, so far, nothing *really* bad happened with this list but Gawker did not know it wouldn't when it irresponsibly chose to publish this information. We don't know what could happen next time something like this happens.

And very few of these people would *want* to be outed--it's a total privacy issue. Just because their privacy wasn't legally protected doesn't mean it shouldn't have been, and doesn't mean that it's not morally wrong to do divulge their private information and call them an "assshole" as you do it.

No man, any way you cut it this was a really awful, irresponsible thing to do. No gun registration for me if there's even a remote chance of it becoming public record.


Ever hear the story of the guy who tried to rob a gun store? He got shot.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
Posts: 14,338
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7/20/2015 11:07:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 10:21:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:51:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:47:07 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:35:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?

I'm just being rhetorical mostly. But this is exactly what gun owners fear when they talk about registration--suddenly all of their information is public. And on such a divisive issue in a country as polarized as it is, that's actual danger.

There's actually a map of gun owners in NYC.

If one could show how the gun registry has actually caused palpable harm to those registered, I would be very interested to see that. It seems that it has been in place for two years? Enough time to see if a disturbing trend has developed...

Not to mention the harm to others. This tells criminals who has guns and where they live--allowing them to know who not to rob, or who TO rob if they want to steal a gun to use for another crime.

Uh, I already stated my interest in the data on this possibility. Got any? Your cited article did not.

But just off the top of my head-- it seems unlikely to me that thieves would be more motivated to invade the house of a person who is decidedly armed. Isn't that much of the argument for having a gun in the first place? That factor should counteract the motive of stealing weapons in a hopefully vacant house. Even with a vacant house, a burglar runs the risk of an armed owner coming home unexpectedly.

Ever hear the story of the guy who tried to rob a gun store? He got shot.

Here's one of the first comments on the article: "The journal posted my address and name for my gun ownership. My past stalker saw this. I haven't heard from him in two years, because I disappeared. Now he is back and calling me......thanks to people like you bunch of asssholes, looks like I will have to protect myself from becoming a murder victim. Gracias."

Obviously there's no way for me to verify this story, but it's extremely plausible that something like this would happen. It's almost never a good idea to divulge peoples information publicly on the internet without their permission.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Fly
Posts: 2,044
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7/20/2015 11:08:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 10:32:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 10:21:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:51:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:47:07 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:35:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 9:24:41 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Can you detail your journey from "mildly pro" to "mildly con" and what part this article played in that process? And could you describe the reasoning behind your old and new positions (if that is not already implied by my first question)?

I'm just being rhetorical mostly. But this is exactly what gun owners fear when they talk about registration--suddenly all of their information is public. And on such a divisive issue in a country as polarized as it is, that's actual danger.

There's actually a map of gun owners in NYC.

If one could show how the gun registry has actually caused palpable harm to those registered, I would be very interested to see that. It seems that it has been in place for two years? Enough time to see if a disturbing trend has developed...

Not to mention the harm to others. This tells criminals who has guns and where they live--allowing them to know who not to rob, or who TO rob if they want to steal a gun to use for another crime.

Uh, I already stated my interest in the data on this possibility. Got any? Your cited article did not.

Well obviously the article didn't...since it was the article that released the information in the first place. Considering the vast amounts of crime committed in NYC, to be able to attribute with any certainty if a specific crime made use of this information is not something I'm interested in doing. The point is, beyond the fact that it's totally asinine to release this kind of information on people, it's logical to assume that criminals could make use of this information in one way or another.

Again, you are making points against the FIA here. Rather than addressing my points in response to yours, you are merely talking past me by repeating yourself.

But just off the top of my head-- it seems unlikely to me that thieves would be more motivated to invade the house of a person who is decidedly armed.

You could always wait til they were out of the house. I agree though, these people aren't likely to be robbed--I made that argument because leftists often make the argument that guns in civilian hands often get stolen and then used in crime and therefore are bad. It's a bad argument, but this preempts it.

Isn't that much of the argument for having a gun in the first place? That factor should counteract the motive of stealing weapons in a hopefully vacant house. Even with a vacant house, a burglar runs the risk of an armed owner coming home unexpectedly.

Right. So basically this map puts in danger everyone who didn't go through the bureaucratic nightmare of trying to get a gun in NYC. Would you really want criminals knowing who is unarmed and therefore can easily be pushed around? Doesn't sound like good policy to me.

My, you are being dodgy here. You have completely reversed your original argument in order to counter my rebuttal. Well in that case, these "poor people who are known to be defenseless" have the peace of mind that their privacy remains intact. And perhaps they have invested in window guards, deadbolt locks, an alarm system, or a dog with very pointy teeth.

Not to mention the ethics of the situation, which is my major issue with it. You never answered if you would be comfortable with a national atheist registry. I know I wouldn't. In this country we have a very dangerous mix of hyper polarization and a penchant for large scale moral panic and mobbing on both sides of the political spectrum. I certainly would not want my name and address as public record on some divisive issue. It seems that, so far, nothing *really* bad happened with this list but Gawker did not know it wouldn't when it irresponsibly chose to publish this information. We don't know what could happen next time something like this happens.

Well, I didn't answer your question because it is a monumentally stupid and irrelevant one. There-- I said it. I guess my polite silence was not enough.

For the record, you refused to answer my rather relevant and genuine question at the outset of your thread.

And it seems to me that Gawker published various names of gun permit holders. The joke "more Chins than a Chinese phone book" comes to mind in response to that "scandalous" disclosure.

And very few of these people would *want* to be outed--it's a total privacy issue. Just because their privacy wasn't legally protected doesn't mean it shouldn't have been, and doesn't mean that it's not morally wrong to do divulge their private information and call them an "assshole" as you do it.

Here your issue is with the article you cited and, again, the FRIA. Not so much an argument against the consequences of a firearm registry.

Using that article, would you be able to knock on someone's door and ask for them by name?

No man, any way you cut it this was a really awful, irresponsible thing to do. No gun registration for me if there's even a remote chance of it becoming public record.

Hey, you're the one who is opening up this crass article to even greater exposure. And it doesn't even make an argument either way on a firearm registry.


Ever hear the story of the guy who tried to rob a gun store? He got shot.
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thett3
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7/20/2015 11:32:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 11:08:43 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/20/2015 10:32:51 PM, thett3 wrote:

Well obviously the article didn't...since it was the article that released the information in the first place. Considering the vast amounts of crime committed in NYC, to be able to attribute with any certainty if a specific crime made use of this information is not something I'm interested in doing. The point is, beyond the fact that it's totally asinine to release this kind of information on people, it's logical to assume that criminals could make use of this information in one way or another.

Again, you are making points against the FIA here. Rather than addressing my points in response to yours, you are merely talking past me by repeating yourself.

My point is that the issue with gun registration expands far further than just "is registration a good idea in a vacuum?" There are very real implications, like the danger of this kind of info being made public against your consent, and your name and address being given to people who have no business knowing anything about you.

You could always wait til they were out of the house. I agree though, these people aren't likely to be robbed--I made that argument because leftists often make the argument that guns in civilian hands often get stolen and then used in crime and therefore are bad. It's a bad argument, but this preempts it.

Right. So basically this map puts in danger everyone who didn't go through the bureaucratic nightmare of trying to get a gun in NYC. Would you really want criminals knowing who is unarmed and therefore can easily be pushed around? Doesn't sound like good policy to me.

My, you are being dodgy here. You have completely reversed your original argument in order to counter my rebuttal. Well in that case, these "poor people who are known to be defenseless" have the peace of mind that their privacy remains intact. And perhaps they have invested in window guards, deadbolt locks, an alarm system, or a dog with very pointy teeth.

I didn't reverse my original argument. I made an argument that showed multiple issues with this information being public in that criminals seeking weapons to steal know where to go and robbers seeking homes without weapons to terrorize know where to go, too. Just because the latter is a far bigger issue than the former doesn't mean that the former isn't and issue and it doesn't mean that it's "dodgy" to emphasize the latter as the great issue.


Not to mention the ethics of the situation, which is my major issue with it. You never answered if you would be comfortable with a national atheist registry. I know I wouldn't. In this country we have a very dangerous mix of hyper polarization and a penchant for large scale moral panic and mobbing on both sides of the political spectrum. I certainly would not want my name and address as public record on some divisive issue. It seems that, so far, nothing *really* bad happened with this list but Gawker did not know it wouldn't when it irresponsibly chose to publish this information. We don't know what could happen next time something like this happens.

Well, I didn't answer your question because it is a monumentally stupid and irrelevant one. There-- I said it. I guess my polite silence was not enough.

But it's not an irrelevant question. Gun control/ownership is also a hot button identity politics issue just like religion itself is. Would it be okay to publish a list and map of all suspected homosexuals in a given area? It's just not a good idea to divulge this kind of info.


For the record, you refused to answer my rather relevant and genuine question at the outset of your thread.

And it seems to me that Gawker published various names of gun permit holders. The joke "more Chins than a Chinese phone book" comes to mind in response to that "scandalous" disclosure.

And very few of these people would *want* to be outed--it's a total privacy issue. Just because their privacy wasn't legally protected doesn't mean it shouldn't have been, and doesn't mean that it's not morally wrong to do divulge their private information and call them an "assshole" as you do it.

Here your issue is with the article you cited and, again, the FRIA. Not so much an argument against the consequences of a firearm registry.

Using that article, would you be able to knock on someone's door and ask for them by name?

There was another organization that created a map of gun owners in specific counties, and the only reason I *can't* knock on someones door from this article is because the NYPD violated the law and (nobly) refused to divulge the addresses. Had it gone to court, the NYPD almost certainly would've lost and the addresses could've been published. Is this not a legitimate concern for someone, like me, who just wants to be left alone?

I could also check the list to see if someone I wanted to rob was on it. There are probably thousands of ways to use it I haven't thought of--a good guiding principle is to not make public peoples information without their consent.

And yes, my argument relies upon their being a poorly written law that allows this information to be public. But without the information being collected in the first place, no law can make it public.

No man, any way you cut it this was a really awful, irresponsible thing to do. No gun registration for me if there's even a remote chance of it becoming public record.

Hey, you're the one who is opening up this crass article to even greater exposure.

You know that's actually a point I hadn't thought of. The virtue of silence is one that often slips our mind.

And it doesn't even make an argument either way on a firearm registry.

The point is that there's a danger to this kind of thing happening. I don't want my name put on the internet declaring that I own guns. Is that not a fair desire to have? Is the fear of the mob when your name is against your will thrown into the ring of identity politics not a legitimate thing to want to avoid? Is it not fair to resent and resist any attempt of datamining by an organization so incompetent it can't even write it's laws properly? Is not the fact that none of these people CONSENTED to having their names published not reason enough to object to making it public? Come on now.

Like I said, I'm being rhetorical when I say that this drove me against gun registration, because in theory there's really no issue with it. My problem is with the existence of a database. Like I said, I'm going to oppose it if there's even a remote chance that it becomes public record.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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7/20/2015 11:40:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 11:08:43 PM, Fly wrote:

Yeah, so I did five minutes of research and I did find a database giving the names AND addresses of permit holders. I'm not going to link it because I'm not going to give out information that isn't mine to give even if it is incredibly easy to get. But yeah, screw any database. I don't want my information collected. That's what it comes down to.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Fly
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7/21/2015 12:06:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Your argument is not so much against a firearm registry in particular but government controlled registries of all kinds, and, of course, their transparency via the Freedom of Information Act. There are many activities that put a person's info into a government registry. I even noted my own presence on a registry. Although you assert otherwise, these registrations are always done with the person's consent. Concealed weapons permits already are a form of registry in most states.

Ironically, I could probably pose a more germane argument against firearm registries from a rights vs. privileges standpoint, but that is not my goal here.

Although you refused to do so, I will state why I agree with a registry for handguns-- handguns (pistols) are most responsible for violent crimes and homicides, and a registry would allow them to be tracked if they have been found in connection to criminal activity. It could then be determined more easily how they wind up in criminal hands so commonly. It would also cause arms dealers to be held more accountable, which would curtail illegal arms sales. It would also drive up the price of handguns on the black market, making them less available to criminals.

That, versus refraining from having my info reside on a government computer disk or file cabinet somewhere if I opt to own a handgun.
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Death23
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7/21/2015 12:08:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Or maybe it's a good argument against not having gun registration lists subject to FOIA requests.
thett3
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7/21/2015 12:12:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 12:06:00 AM, Fly wrote:
Your argument is not so much against a firearm registry in particular but government controlled registries of all kinds, and, of course, their transparency via the Freedom of Information Act. There are many activities that put a person's info into a government registry. I even noted my own presence on a registry. Although you assert otherwise, these registrations are always done with the person's consent. Concealed weapons permits already are a form of registry in most states.

I never said that gun ownership was unique in this respect. The critique does cut through to any registry, which adds an extra hurdle to justify them. I tend to already be suspicious of government intervention and data collection and so the danger of having my name and address divulged by some idiot is enough to sway me.

I said it's a good argument, not a be all end all. The issue of gun registration is still very much debatable, but what isn't debatable is that there's always a danger that collected information can be given out. That's what it comes down to.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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7/21/2015 12:14:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 12:08:44 AM, Death23 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Or maybe it's a good argument against not having gun registration lists subject to FOIA requests.

Sure, assuming you can get that passed to exempt guns. I've said in this thread that I'll consider supporting any gun registration policy if there's absolutely no chance of it becoming public. In the status quo, that isn't the case so I'm opposed.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Death23
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7/21/2015 12:29:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 12:14:01 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/21/2015 12:08:44 AM, Death23 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Or maybe it's a good argument against not having gun registration lists subject to FOIA requests.

Sure, assuming you can get that passed to exempt guns. I've said in this thread that I'll consider supporting any gun registration policy if there's absolutely no chance of it becoming public. In the status quo, that isn't the case so I'm opposed.

I'd imagine that the individual registrations on any such list would likely be used as evidence in criminal trials. The trials have to be public. So, I don't see that there would be "absolutely no chance" of individual registrations becoming public. Additionally, data can always be compromised by hackers or negligence, etc.
thett3
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7/21/2015 12:31:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 12:29:05 AM, Death23 wrote:
At 7/21/2015 12:14:01 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/21/2015 12:08:44 AM, Death23 wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Or maybe it's a good argument against not having gun registration lists subject to FOIA requests.

Sure, assuming you can get that passed to exempt guns. I've said in this thread that I'll consider supporting any gun registration policy if there's absolutely no chance of it becoming public. In the status quo, that isn't the case so I'm opposed.

I'd imagine that the individual registrations on any such list would likely be used as evidence in criminal trials. The trials have to be public. So, I don't see that there would be "absolutely no chance" of individual registrations becoming public. Additionally, data can always be compromised by hackers or negligence, etc.

Well I mean the database becoming public, not specific cases in the proper legal context. That the data can be hacked is certainly an issue but when I think about it, there's a lot more dangerous information (social security and credit card numbers for example) that can also be hacked. However when it's literally legal to get this information upon request? Yeah, no I will not support any law until that is changed.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
FullMetal.Alchemist
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7/21/2015 11:28:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

That's not a problem with gun registration. It's a problem with the Freedom of Information Act, which doesn't allow the federal government to keep information secret from the public. Obviously, it is retarded to make an "map" of gun owners using registration data and then release that publicly, for reasons which you have already expressed in this thread. However, gun registration is quite useful for law enforcement purposes; if registration data was only available to law enforcement agencies, then none of what you are saying would be a problem.
thett3
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7/21/2015 12:17:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 11:28:11 AM, FullMetal.Alchemist wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

That's not a problem with gun registration. It's a problem with the Freedom of Information Act, which doesn't allow the federal government to keep information secret from the public. Obviously, it is retarded to make an "map" of gun owners using registration data and then release that publicly, for reasons which you have already expressed in this thread. However, gun registration is quite useful for law enforcement purposes; if registration data was only available to law enforcement agencies, then none of what you are saying would be a problem.

Like I said, good luck amending the law. If and when that happens, we can talk. Like I said, this completely vindicates the fears of gun owners when they resist registration
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
FullMetal.Alchemist
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7/21/2015 12:27:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 12:17:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/21/2015 11:28:11 AM, FullMetal.Alchemist wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

That's not a problem with gun registration. It's a problem with the Freedom of Information Act, which doesn't allow the federal government to keep information secret from the public. Obviously, it is retarded to make an "map" of gun owners using registration data and then release that publicly, for reasons which you have already expressed in this thread. However, gun registration is quite useful for law enforcement purposes; if registration data was only available to law enforcement agencies, then none of what you are saying would be a problem.

Like I said, good luck amending the law. If and when that happens, we can talk. Like I said, this completely vindicates the fears of gun owners when they resist registration

It's amusing because many of those same gun owners would vehemently support the Freedom of Information Act, because the government keeping any secrets is obviously a slippery slope to tyranny...
thett3
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7/21/2015 12:30:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 12:27:16 PM, FullMetal.Alchemist wrote:
At 7/21/2015 12:17:40 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 7/21/2015 11:28:11 AM, FullMetal.Alchemist wrote:
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

That's not a problem with gun registration. It's a problem with the Freedom of Information Act, which doesn't allow the federal government to keep information secret from the public. Obviously, it is retarded to make an "map" of gun owners using registration data and then release that publicly, for reasons which you have already expressed in this thread. However, gun registration is quite useful for law enforcement purposes; if registration data was only available to law enforcement agencies, then none of what you are saying would be a problem.

Like I said, good luck amending the law. If and when that happens, we can talk. Like I said, this completely vindicates the fears of gun owners when they resist registration

It's amusing because many of those same gun owners would vehemently support the Freedom of Information Act, because the government keeping any secrets is obviously a slippery slope to tyranny...

Well obviously. Except the military, which is of course always free to do whatever it wants
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
16kadams
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7/21/2015 5:49:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 8:17:33 PM, thett3 wrote:
This "article" made me go from mildly pro gun registration to mildly con. How is this even *remotely* okay?

http://tinyurl.com...

The link is a tinyurl because the real URL contains the word "assh0le" and the profanity filter won't let me post it.

Why would you even favor registration? Background checks? Yeah ok. But registration is dumb. In Canada it has had no appreciable effect on crime rates while costing a sh!t ton of money to maintain. Costed like $2 billion in Canada. Imagine the cost here with the amount of firearms we have, lol.
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thett3
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7/21/2015 9:39:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/21/2015 9:09:58 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Why can't we just get rid of this dumb law and keep gun registration? I don't see how they are linked.

It's a status quo argument. Things don't have to be inherently linked to be used as arguments--until a change is made to avoid an oversight like this, I'm not going to support gun registration. I've said like 20 times in this thread that if that were changed I would consider changing my opinion
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right