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Recycling is Bad?

mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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8/22/2010 6:44:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Except for aluminum cans, which are actually paid for by private companies.

Anybody have anything to refute this?
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
mongoose
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8/22/2010 7:02:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 7:00:47 PM, badger wrote:
do these two have many more episodes or are they just out to get the environment?

They have lots, over things like Wal-Mart and gun rights and PETA and college and...
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
MikeLoviN
Posts: 746
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8/22/2010 7:03:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 7:02:25 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 8/22/2010 7:00:47 PM, badger wrote:
do these two have many more episodes or are they just out to get the environment?

They have lots, over things like Wal-Mart and gun rights and PETA and college and...

orgasms and astrology
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/22/2010 7:03:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
oh right.. only seen this one and the one panda posted so far. in the process of watching the first part now.
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belle
Posts: 4,113
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8/22/2010 7:07:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
http://www.popularmechanics.com...

i trust popular mechanics more than penn and teller. not to say their show isn't funny.... but it doesn't give the whole story. recycling does save energy if you consider the energy requirements of extracting raw materials contra what those guys claimed. though it seems that recycling isn't particularly cost effective, at least not the way it is implemented in many cities.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
badger
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8/22/2010 7:11:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 7:07:11 PM, belle wrote:
http://www.popularmechanics.com...

i trust popular mechanics more than penn and teller. not to say their show isn't funny.... but it doesn't give the whole story. recycling does save energy if you consider the energy requirements of extracting raw materials contra what those guys claimed. though it seems that recycling isn't particularly cost effective, at least not the way it is implemented in many cities.

yeah, they've avoided mineral extraction so far.
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mongoose
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8/22/2010 7:29:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 7:07:11 PM, belle wrote:
http://www.popularmechanics.com...

i trust popular mechanics more than penn and teller. not to say their show isn't funny.... but it doesn't give the whole story. recycling does save energy if you consider the energy requirements of extracting raw materials contra what those guys claimed. though it seems that recycling isn't particularly cost effective, at least not the way it is implemented in many cities.

Unless you count money as energy, in which case it takes more (energy + money). If it really was effecient, the government wouldn't need to be in charge.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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8/22/2010 7:47:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 7:29:50 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 8/22/2010 7:07:11 PM, belle wrote:
http://www.popularmechanics.com...

i trust popular mechanics more than penn and teller. not to say their show isn't funny.... but it doesn't give the whole story. recycling does save energy if you consider the energy requirements of extracting raw materials contra what those guys claimed. though it seems that recycling isn't particularly cost effective, at least not the way it is implemented in many cities.

Unless you count money as energy, in which case it takes more (energy + money). If it really was effecient, the government wouldn't need to be in charge.

and healthcare is bad because government run healthcare is inefficient? lol

given the energy savings, it seems crazy to me that recycling isn't profitable. my guess is that low yield recyclables like glass and pvcs drag down the whole enterprise.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
mongoose
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8/22/2010 7:50:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 7:47:06 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/22/2010 7:29:50 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 8/22/2010 7:07:11 PM, belle wrote:
http://www.popularmechanics.com...

i trust popular mechanics more than penn and teller. not to say their show isn't funny.... but it doesn't give the whole story. recycling does save energy if you consider the energy requirements of extracting raw materials contra what those guys claimed. though it seems that recycling isn't particularly cost effective, at least not the way it is implemented in many cities.

Unless you count money as energy, in which case it takes more (energy + money). If it really was effecient, the government wouldn't need to be in charge.

and healthcare is bad because government run healthcare is inefficient? lol

given the energy savings, it seems crazy to me that recycling isn't profitable. my guess is that low yield recyclables like glass and pvcs drag down the whole enterprise.

Profitable ones, such as aluminum, are actually used by private companies.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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8/22/2010 7:52:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 7:47:06 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/22/2010 7:29:50 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 8/22/2010 7:07:11 PM, belle wrote:
http://www.popularmechanics.com...

i trust popular mechanics more than penn and teller. not to say their show isn't funny.... but it doesn't give the whole story. recycling does save energy if you consider the energy requirements of extracting raw materials contra what those guys claimed. though it seems that recycling isn't particularly cost effective, at least not the way it is implemented in many cities.

Unless you count money as energy, in which case it takes more (energy + money). If it really was effecient, the government wouldn't need to be in charge.

and healthcare is bad because government run healthcare is inefficient? lol
No, health care is good because privately run healthcare is efficient. Just because the government botches up anything it touches doesn't mean any particular industry is bad.

given the energy savings, it seems crazy to me that recycling isn't profitable. my guess is that low yield recyclables like glass and pvcs drag down the whole enterprise.
It's profitable for aluminum, at least. Maybe it will be profitable for more things in the future, with technological advancements.
Volkov
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8/22/2010 7:59:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I generally think Penn and Teller are right on a lot of things, but this doesn't really click with me.

The way the current recycling system is set up doesn't translate into large profits mainly because they're designed for high capacity. I mean, when you look at the regular trash-bin recycling which is collected once a week and never as much as regular trash, compared to large-scale operations where industrial metal and plastics and etc. are recycled on a constant, high-volume basis, its obvious that the latter can be a big boon to business through profit and cost-saving. If trash-bin recycling reached that sort of level, it could be wildly successful.

However, despite all the campaigns, how many people actually recycle? And if there is nothing to come out of, both private and government agencies won't waste the money to run the programs.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/22/2010 9:01:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I started a politics forum topic on "The Story of Stuff" a while back, and in it the author postulates that we operate in a "linear system" in which we use resources, throw them out, and simply continue to use and waste in a linear fashion. Tarzan made a relevant comment after that, which I responded to, which pretty much sums up my point.

Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 7/27/2010 9:08:19 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Linear system? Ever heard of recycling?

Recycling actually is NOT the answer, and it is a common misconception that it is the save-all of the environmental movement. Recycling is actually only the third-best solution available, and should NOT be utilized until the first two have been completely exhausted (she has a very small point about this in her criticism of our recycling program).

From a resource management perspective, REDUCING is the only way to go. In other words, instead of planning on recycling goods, we just don't make them in the first place. Industries have used reducing to become more economically viable by using less materials in their manufacturing processes (particularly of the toxic sort). Using things that are made to last instead of single-serve is another way of reducing. This is why I often argue that it actually would cost less to give everyone high-quality goods that do not need to be replaced than it is under our current system where we all buy cheap sh11 and replace them often. We are electing to get the worst out of both worlds (cheap sh11/high cost) instead of getting the best of both worlds (high quality/low cost).

This is not always attainable, and in cases where you cannot reduce you should turn to REUSING instead of recycling. The computer example in the video is a good reusing example - instead of recycling all the parts in the computer, let's just make the housing a (relatively) permanent piece of equipment while only replacing the cpu. In this way we have completely gone around recycling. Other pieces will of course need replacing sooner or later but you can obviously see that we throw out lots of good components that never needed to be manufactured in the first place every time we throw out an old computer.

Recycling is only the last resort when we cannot reduce and reuse. Recycling is energy inefficient and many things have limits to how many times they can be recycled. And of course, the vast majority of the things we use are not recyclable at all anyways. Nevertheless, recycling is better than any of the options further down the list (incineration with energy recovery, landfilling, etc.) so we should still put every effort into maintaining and improving our current recycling programs.

------------------------------------

Tarzan's misconception of the magnitude of recycling (my post was never answered) is, generally, what I believe the videos are describing (although I only watched the first one because they didn't seem very useful other than poking fun at ignorant liberals). Suffice to say that we are going to need a hell of a lot more than effective recycling to maintain equilibrium with our environment; our current trends lead to sure doom and the only consolation we have is that we will be killed off before we ruin the planet completely.

The real answer? Sustainable communities. However you all are not going to be very happy with that answer because it means an end to capitalism. IOWs, there's no way we can sustain your favorite economic system which is based off the whims of consumers. "Consumers" are beings who consume resources and spit out garbage. The future will only support non-consumers: those who live in equilibrium with the environment. I'm a radical wacko though so I doubt this concept will gain any traction with the general public. We're all pretty much fvcked, but I believe several generations down the road there will still be enough of us to pick up the pieces and learn from our mistakes.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Volkov
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8/22/2010 9:21:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 9:01:35 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I'm a radical wacko though

Pretty much. I thought your post might have been TL;DR, but I gave it a chance, and then I was sorely disappointed in the drivel afterwards.
Zetsubou
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8/22/2010 9:25:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 9:21:55 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 8/22/2010 9:01:35 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I'm a radical wacko though

Pretty much. I thought your post might have been TL;DR, but I gave it a chance, and then I was sorely disappointed in the drivel afterwards.

This post is very unlike you, Volkov.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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8/22/2010 9:29:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 9:25:08 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
This post is very unlike you, Volkov.

I have little tolerance for Rob's posts, sometimes. So, I have to be honest with my opinions. xD
lovelife
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8/23/2010 6:53:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 7:03:52 PM, badger wrote:
oh right.. only seen this one and the one panda posted so far. in the process of watching the first part now.

Yeah I only saw the endagered species one the pie one and the PETA one and now this one. 3/4 seem to attack the environment in some way lol.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/23/2010 10:37:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 6:44:06 PM, mongoose wrote:




Except for aluminum cans, which are actually paid for by private companies.

Anybody have anything to refute this?:

They aren't saying recycling is bad, just that it is ultimately pointless.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
mongeese
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8/23/2010 5:51:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 10:37:50 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:

They aren't saying recycling is bad, just that it is ultimately pointless.

They say it sometimes harms the environment and wastes billions of dollars every year. Yeah, I'd say that that's bad.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/23/2010 6:53:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 5:51:13 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/23/2010 10:37:50 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:

They aren't saying recycling is bad, just that it is ultimately pointless.

They say it sometimes harms the environment and wastes billions of dollars every year. Yeah, I'd say that that's bad.

Recycling is similar to business in that it is an art; efficiency must be brought to bear and it can be botched. For instance, should a community implement single-stream or multiple stream? My university uses multiple streams and has a bin for every single type of item (kind of like in the video) but it has proved inefficient. Instead of trying to keep the streams separate the whole way our local recycling center uses machinery to separate it after the fact. Certain facilities maintain certain efficiencies and can be judged similar to businesses in this fashion.

Whether recycling is cost-effective compared to dumping it is a relatively moot argument; of course its going to cost more to recycle than to just dump it and forget about it. As with most capitalist economics, the environmental externalities of our activities are not realized soon enough to be valid inputs into the common cost-benefit analysis. Suffice to say finite resources should be recycled.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
SportsGuru
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8/23/2010 7:48:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
For those who are to lazy to watch the video: Japanese guy invents machine that converts plastic to oil.

Not in video but found with research: Converts 1 kg of plastic to 1 liter of oil with 1 kilowatt

Your move
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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8/23/2010 8:17:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 7:48:37 PM, SportsGuru wrote:


For those who are to lazy to watch the video: Japanese guy invents machine that converts plastic to oil.

Not in video but found with research: Converts 1 kg of plastic to 1 liter of oil with 1 kilowatt


Your move

So if this is efficient (seems to be), private companies will use it and recycling will be good.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/24/2010 8:19:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 7:48:37 PM, SportsGuru wrote:


For those who are to lazy to watch the video: Japanese guy invents machine that converts plastic to oil.

Not in video but found with research: Converts 1 kg of plastic to 1 liter of oil with 1 kilowatt


Your move

I'm not a scientist but this seems too wonderful and simple to be true. With all the universities, thesis projects, scientists etc. in the US alone no one has figured out we can melt plastic back into oil? There's GOT to be more to this than he's alluding to. Possible explanations why it fails:

1) Where did all the dyes and impurities in the plastics go?
2) Which types of plastics did he use? Can they be mixed?
3) How many Btus did it take to render the oil compared to Btus gained in re-burning it?
4) He says 80% of the C02 is saved in the process, but why exactly? He's clearly burning it right back into the atmosphere...
5) What is the quality of thiis rendered oil?

Again, I'm not well-trained in chemistry so we'd really need to do some research to see if this holds any weight.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Rob1Billion
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8/24/2010 9:55:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
So now recycling is a "liberal idea" lol. I suppose when your body recycles oxygen from the air into new compounds that's a liberal idea as well. Biological symbiosis is a liberal idea too. Recycling isn't about making money; it's about being able to sustain our civilization beyond the next century.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Rob1Billion
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8/24/2010 9:57:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I can't believe that capitalism, individualism, and greed has evolved so far that even a conversation about science now must be justified by how much money it can produce. I wonder what the great philosophers and scientists of antiquity would say about how pathetic we truly have become - they probably would have destroyed thier writings and inventions and forced humanity into a perpetual dark age in which we could not reach this tragic state.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Danielle
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8/24/2010 10:09:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is old news and has been exposed on the show Penn and Teller's Bullsh!t a long time ago. Most recycling is very bad and counterproductive. Yet the government mandates it in many states. Is anyone surprised?
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LaissezFaire
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8/24/2010 10:13:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/24/2010 10:11:17 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Watch this. It's 3 parts and this is part 1.



Isn't that the same video mongoose posted when starting the thread?
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