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Bad blood and Tuskegee

Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/23/2010 2:41:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I wonder how many people reading this are even aware of a piece of legislation called The Nürnberg Code, a legally binding code relating to medical experiments on human beings introduced in the US in '49 as a consequence of the horrors that took place in Nazi Germany and in China by the Japanese?

Or of the updated version that dotted a few "I"'s and crossed a few "t"'s and known as The 1964 Declaration of Helsinki.

http://www.cirp.org...

In essence a physician must not do anything without the consent of the patient given in full knowledge of the patient of what's proposed to be done and the possible outcomes plus a deal more regarding ethics and objectives of any treatment being given – or withheld.

And yet the US has a horrendous record of ignoring both Nürnberg and Helsinki.

Here's one example for starters. The Tuskegee syphilis experiment.

This was an experiment to establish the epidemiology and progress of syphilis within a largely closed population.

The experiment was the deliberate failure to treat a group of male Negroes in Macon County Alabama who had contracted syphilis. The experiment started in 1932 and only ended in 1972 and then only after uproar in the medical fraternity, an uproar that was largely hushed up as well as being kept to a great degree out of the pubic eye.

What in MY opinion makes Tuskegee so disgraceful is the lack of scientific worth of the experiment, it wasn't as if the effects and the epidemiology of Syphilis was unknown at the commencement of the experiment, and the availability of a cure for the disease in the form of Arsphenamine, discovered by the outstanding Jewish immunologist Dr. Paul Ehrlich, since 1910, over twenty years before the "experiment" was started.

Then add the ubiquitous availability of Penicillin from the mid 50's which STILL did not cause the experiment to be closed, in fact there was a conscious decision taken NOT to treat the sufferers with proven effective drug regimes.

What I've written is just scratching the surface, worse yet it is one of many quite astonishing things done in the not so distant past.

There is a book that chronicles the whole disgusting affair, Jones, J.H. 1993. Bad Blood: The Tuskegee Experiment, it makes fascinating and very disturbing reading.

I do wonder how widely this, and other disgraceful actions are well known, and what the opinion is amongst forum members.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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8/23/2010 5:59:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I didn't consent to that code. It's an experiment in there being other safeguards on medical procedures than whether I choose to consent. The only code I consent to on experiments is "The patient is informed there is an experiment afoot, and can opt out if they want to."

That is the only code I consent to. So that code being legally binding is self-refuting, since it does hold consent to be a minimum (but not sufficient) requirement.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/23/2010 6:03:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 2:57:38 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Negro is politically incorrect, Goldberg.

It's the official term.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Zetsubou
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8/23/2010 6:28:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 6:03:33 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2010 2:57:38 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Negro is politically incorrect, Goldberg.

It's the official term.

Nigroid is to black
as
Caucasian is to white

Negro is not an official term for black people.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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8/23/2010 6:34:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 6:28:44 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 8/23/2010 6:03:33 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2010 2:57:38 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Negro is politically incorrect, Goldberg.

It's the official term.

Nigroid is to black
as
Caucasian is to white

Negro is not an official term for black people.

It's a period term, probably from cutting and pasting. (Liking the derailment.)
Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/23/2010 6:51:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 6:34:37 AM, innomen wrote:
At 8/23/2010 6:28:44 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 8/23/2010 6:03:33 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2010 2:57:38 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Negro is politically incorrect, Goldberg.

It's the official term.

Nigroid is to black
as
Caucasian is to white

Negro is not an official term for black people.

It's a period term, probably from cutting and pasting. (Liking the derailment.)

It's a legitimate non-offensive term to describe somebody by race rather than political or national affiliation.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/23/2010 7:33:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 6:28:44 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 8/23/2010 6:03:33 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2010 2:57:38 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Negro is politically incorrect, Goldberg.

It's the official term.

Nigroid is to black
as
Caucasian is to white

Negro is not an official term for black people.

Negro is derived from negroid. They are the valid 'official' terms. Negro is not politically incorrect, I personally don't use the term because I am neurotic. I just say black.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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8/23/2010 7:49:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 7:33:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2010 6:28:44 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 8/23/2010 6:03:33 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2010 2:57:38 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Negro is politically incorrect, Goldberg.

It's the official term.

Nigroid is to black
as
Caucasian is to white

Negro is not an official term for black people.

Negro is derived from negroid. They are the valid 'official' terms. Negro is not politically incorrect, I personally don't use the term because I am neurotic. I just say black.

Yeah, i'd be careful how you use that term in certain areas in the US. I think in the mid to late 60's and even early 70's it was a no no, as colored was acceptable prior to the 50's and prior to that ... well there is a digression.
Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/23/2010 7:56:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 7:49:16 AM, innomen wrote:
At 8/23/2010 7:33:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2010 6:28:44 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 8/23/2010 6:03:33 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/23/2010 2:57:38 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Negro is politically incorrect, Goldberg.

It's the official term.

Nigroid is to black
as
Caucasian is to white

Negro is not an official term for black people.

Negro is derived from negroid. They are the valid 'official' terms. Negro is not politically incorrect, I personally don't use the term because I am neurotic. I just say black.

Yeah, i'd be careful how you use that term in certain areas in the US. I think in the mid to late 60's and even early 70's it was a no no, as colored was acceptable prior to the 50's and prior to that ... well there is a digression.

It's not offensive in Europe when its used in the context that I used it in the start of tjhis thread.

But what I do find sad is how a single word becomes the focus of attention while the disgrace of Tuskegee is ignored.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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8/23/2010 10:00:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
My Research Methods class watched a video on this as part of our ethics training. It's absolutely disgusting and infuriating what happened to these men. And one of the (white) men interviewed saw nothing wrong with what was done. I've never had such an urge to punch an 80 year old in the face.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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8/23/2010 10:03:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 2:41:47 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:

Then add the ubiquitous availability of Penicillin from the mid 50's which STILL did not cause the experiment to be closed, in fact there was a conscious decision taken NOT to treat the sufferers with proven effective drug regimes.


Yeah. They were told from the beginning they were receiving treatment, I believe. And when they realized their symptoms were getting worse and tried to get treatment elsewhere, they were actively sought out and prevented from receiving treatment.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/25/2010 6:10:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/23/2010 2:41:47 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:

What in MY opinion makes Tuskegee so disgraceful is the lack of scientific worth of the experiment, it wasn't as if the effects and the epidemiology of Syphilis was unknown at the commencement of the experiment, and the availability of a cure for the disease in the form of Arsphenamine, discovered by the outstanding Jewish immunologist Dr. Paul Ehrlich, since 1910, over twenty years before the "experiment" was started.


Really? That's what makes it so disgraceful? I think you have your priorities wrong, man.
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Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/26/2010 12:19:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/25/2010 6:10:22 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/23/2010 2:41:47 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:

What in MY opinion makes Tuskegee so disgraceful is the lack of scientific worth of the experiment, it wasn't as if the effects and the epidemiology of Syphilis was unknown at the commencement of the experiment, and the availability of a cure for the disease in the form of Arsphenamine, discovered by the outstanding Jewish immunologist Dr. Paul Ehrlich, since 1910, over twenty years before the "experiment" was started.


Really? That's what makes it so disgraceful? I think you have your priorities wrong, man.

Care to expand on that?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/26/2010 9:07:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 12:19:58 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 8/25/2010 6:10:22 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/23/2010 2:41:47 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:

What in MY opinion makes Tuskegee so disgraceful is the lack of scientific worth of the experiment, it wasn't as if the effects and the epidemiology of Syphilis was unknown at the commencement of the experiment, and the availability of a cure for the disease in the form of Arsphenamine, discovered by the outstanding Jewish immunologist Dr. Paul Ehrlich, since 1910, over twenty years before the "experiment" was started.


Really? That's what makes it so disgraceful? I think you have your priorities wrong, man.

Care to expand on that?

lol, I'm guessing he means the Really disgraceful bits are the whole experimenting on people without their consent thing...

and not really caring about any plausible Ethical problems with that... b/c they're black guys anyways
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

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Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/27/2010 12:16:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 9:07:48 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/26/2010 12:19:58 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 8/25/2010 6:10:22 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/23/2010 2:41:47 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:

What in MY opinion makes Tuskegee so disgraceful is the lack of scientific worth of the experiment, it wasn't as if the effects and the epidemiology of Syphilis was unknown at the commencement of the experiment, and the availability of a cure for the disease in the form of Arsphenamine, discovered by the outstanding Jewish immunologist Dr. Paul Ehrlich, since 1910, over twenty years before the "experiment" was started.


Really? That's what makes it so disgraceful? I think you have your priorities wrong, man.

Care to expand on that?

lol, I'm guessing he means the Really disgraceful bits are the whole experimenting on people without their consent thing...

and not really caring about any plausible Ethical problems with that... b/c they're black guys anyways

But both of those things - and more go without saying.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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8/27/2010 4:22:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I suspect a similar experiment is being conducted on the insular community that inhabits the County of Norfolk in England.

I don't know what the disease that is being left untreated is, but it causes serious brain damage – the doctors there write "NFN" - Normal For Norfolk - on their patients' case notes because of the exceptionally large number of people with profound learning difficulties in the County.

http://www.literarynorfolk.co.uk...

You are a doctor in Norfolk, aren't you Zeitgeist? What's really going on there? :)
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Zeitgeist
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8/27/2010 5:38:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 4:22:45 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I suspect a similar experiment is being conducted on the insular community that inhabits the County of Norfolk in England.

I don't know what the disease that is being left untreated is, but it causes serious brain damage – the doctors there write "NFN" - Normal For Norfolk - on their patients' case notes because of the exceptionally large number of people with profound learning difficulties in the County.

http://www.literarynorfolk.co.uk...

You are a doctor in Norfolk, aren't you Zeitgeist? What's really going on there? :)

Not a doctor of medicine.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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8/27/2010 10:38:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 5:38:56 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 8/27/2010 4:22:45 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I suspect a similar experiment is being conducted on the insular community that inhabits the County of Norfolk in England.

I don't know what the disease that is being left untreated is, but it causes serious brain damage – the doctors there write "NFN" - Normal For Norfolk - on their patients' case notes because of the exceptionally large number of people with profound learning difficulties in the County.

http://www.literarynorfolk.co.uk...

You are a doctor in Norfolk, aren't you Zeitgeist? What's really going on there? :)

Not a doctor of medicine.

Ah! I'm sure any immigrants in the Norwich area (if there are any) that may require medical attention will be relieved to hear that!
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