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Political Ideologies

wsmunit7
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7/31/2015 3:32:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am often amused by those on the right (politically conservative) when they attempt to disparage those on the left (politically liberal) by attempting to label them as "Fascist" and / or "Nazis" when they are, in fact, oxymornic. They seem to be Rush Limbaugh, Mike Huckabee's and their ilk (as well as several contributors here on DDO) favorite adjectives. Unfortunately for them, all they are accomplishing is illuminating their own ignorance. If you are going to attempt to denigrate someone, you should at least have SOME idea of what you are saying. Therefore, allow me to offer a primer on political ideologies:
https://en.wikipedia.org...
Fascism (/f"@3;=8;zəm/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and Anarchism. Fascism is often placed on the far-right within the traditional left"right spectrum, but some academics call that description inadequate.[3][4]
Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[12] Following World War II, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist, and the term is usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The terms neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Nazism (/G2;naH0;ts=8;zJ98;m/), or National Socialism in full (German: Nationalsozialismus), and rarely Hitlerism, was the ideology and practice of the German Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany as a whole, though it is sometimes <em>applied to other far-right groups. Usually characterised as an offshoot of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism, Nazism arose from pan-Germanism, the V"lkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps after World War I.
Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and social Darwinism. Germanic peoples (called the Nordic race) were depicted as the purest of the Aryan race, and were therefore the master race. Opposed to both capitalism and communism, it aimed to overcome social divisions, with all parts of a homogeneous society seeking national unity and traditionalism, and what it viewed as historically German territory as well as additional lands for expansion.
The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism", as an alternative to both internationalist Marxist socialism and free market capitalism. The Nazis sought to achieve this by a "people's community" (Volksgemeinschaft) with the aim of uniting all Germans as national comrades, whilst excluding those deemed either to be community aliens or of a foreign race (Fremdv"lkische). It rejected the Marxist concept of class struggle, opposed ideas of class equality and international solidarity, and sought to defend private property and businesses.


So, as one can see from above, both Fascism and Nazism are right wing ideologies, NOT liberal ideologies.
Fascism is, in fact, opposed to liberalism, just as the Republican Party in the USA is. They also favor protectionist economics. Sound familiar?
Nazism is an offshoot of fascism that incorporates racism, traditionalism, exclusion of those deemed to be aliens (xenophobia, anti-immigration), opposition to ideas of equality, and support of business. Again, sound familiar?

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality.[1][2] The former principle is stressed in classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in social liberalism.[3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free markets, civil rights</strong>, democratic societies, secular governments, and international cooperation
Skepsikyma
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7/31/2015 4:02:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Basing our political categories on what beliefs were held by the two parties sitting in a French legislative body several centuries ago is ridiculous. It has no bearing on the actual substance or origin of an ideology, hence the constant attempts by both party to pigeonhole the other with ideologies which both have little in common with.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
wsmunit7
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7/31/2015 4:13:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 4:02:18 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Basing our political categories on what beliefs were held by the two parties sitting in a French legislative body several centuries ago is ridiculous. It has no bearing on the actual substance or origin of an ideology, hence the constant attempts by both party to pigeonhole the other with ideologies which both have little in common with.

You are speaking of the French Revolution? You ARE aware that came AFTER the founding of the USA? Neither Fascism nor Nazism were French concepts. Both are 20th century concepts. So are the Republican and Democratic Parties. I don't understand your reference to "centuries ago". Have the overall concepts changed over the last century to the point that they are now reversed?
Skepsikyma
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7/31/2015 4:22:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 4:13:21 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 4:02:18 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Basing our political categories on what beliefs were held by the two parties sitting in a French legislative body several centuries ago is ridiculous. It has no bearing on the actual substance or origin of an ideology, hence the constant attempts by both party to pigeonhole the other with ideologies which both have little in common with.

You are speaking of the French Revolution? You ARE aware that came AFTER the founding of the USA? Neither Fascism nor Nazism were French concepts. Both are 20th century concepts. So are the Republican and Democratic Parties. I don't understand your reference to "centuries ago". Have the overall concepts changed over the last century to the point that they are now reversed?

'Left wing' and 'right wing' refer to the ideas represented by two major political forces which sat in the legislative assembly of the Ancien Regime (before the Revolution). We basically say 'do these people have more in common with the forces which supported the church and the king, or those who wished to overthrow the monarchy and establish a republic?' That's a ridiculous standard for classification, especially when applied to very new, conglomerate ideas like Fascism, Soviet-style Communism, and Democratic Socialism.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
wsmunit7
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7/31/2015 4:25:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 4:22:59 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 7/31/2015 4:13:21 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 4:02:18 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Basing our political categories on what beliefs were held by the two parties sitting in a French legislative body several centuries ago is ridiculous. It has no bearing on the actual substance or origin of an ideology, hence the constant attempts by both party to pigeonhole the other with ideologies which both have little in common with.

You are speaking of the French Revolution? You ARE aware that came AFTER the founding of the USA? Neither Fascism nor Nazism were French concepts. Both are 20th century concepts. So are the Republican and Democratic Parties. I don't understand your reference to "centuries ago". Have the overall concepts changed over the last century to the point that they are now reversed?

'Left wing' and 'right wing' refer to the ideas represented by two major political forces which sat in the legislative assembly of the Ancien Regime (before the Revolution). We basically say 'do these people have more in common with the forces which supported the church and the king, or those who wished to overthrow the monarchy and establish a republic?' That's a ridiculous standard for classification, especially when applied to very new, conglomerate ideas like Fascism, Soviet-style Communism, and Democratic Socialism.

Hey, it wasn't me that coined their common usage in the 20th & 21st centuries.
GeoLaureate8
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7/31/2015 4:30:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Rush Limbaugh does not call the left, fascists.

Fascism is centrist totalitarianism.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wsmunit7
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7/31/2015 4:40:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 4:30:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Rush Limbaugh does not call the left, fascists.

Excuse me??? Would you like me to google and directly quote him for you?


Fascism is centrist totalitarianism.

I cite the source for my definitions. Would you please cite your source for that one of yours?
GeoLaureate8
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7/31/2015 4:42:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A good case that Nazi fascism is left wing socialist:

'Nazism Is Socialism'

"By the standards of the Left, Adolf Hitler would have been deemed a "great statesman," had he died before he started the war (or if he had won it). That's because the left tends to measure greatness by the amount of land and number of people under one man's thumb. By that standard, Hitler was a great socialist-which is precisely what he and his part aspired to become.
...
Although economic centralization had to wait until political opponents and organized opposition was suppressed or liquidated, the Nazis' "new deal" began almost immediately.

For instance, in October 1933, Hitler declared that "the ruin of the German peasant will be the ruin of the German people." New farm programs were instated, along with propaganda about Blut und Bloden. Hitler appointed as head of the Ministry of Food and Agriculture Walther Darre, who in 1929 published a book, The Peasantry as the Life Source of the Nordic Race.

Darre wished to "reform" the production and marketing of food and to raise prices for farmers. Darre's entire program was designed with one objective in mind: to insulate the peasant farmer from the market."

https://mises.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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7/31/2015 4:52:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 4:40:47 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 4:30:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Rush Limbaugh does not call the left, fascists.

Excuse me??? Would you like me to google and directly quote him for you?

I listen to Rush Limbaugh everyday. If he did say it, it may have been once, but not regularly. But he really refrains from being hyperbolic, he's very deliberate and precise with his language and a wordsmith talk expert.

Even with Planned Parenthood chopping up, "crushing," and "crunching" babies, putting their body parts in a bowl, and then selling them for a profit in classic Joseph Mengele fashion Rush still avoiding calling them Nazis directly. He just danced around it and implied it, but said he wouldn't go that far, just that the argument could be made there is a comparison.

Fascism is centrist totalitarianism.

I cite the source for my definitions. Would you please cite your source for that one of yours?

"A number of historians regard fascism either as a revolutionary centrist doctrine, as a doctrine that mixes philosophies of the left and the right, or as both those things. Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists who combined left-wing and right-wing political views."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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7/31/2015 4:52:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 4:42:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
A good case that Nazi fascism is left wing socialist:

'Nazism Is Socialism'

"By the standards of the Left, Adolf Hitler would have been deemed a "great statesman," had he died before he started the war (or if he had won it). That's because the left tends to measure greatness by the amount of land and number of people under one man's thumb. By that standard, Hitler was a great socialist-which is precisely what he and his part aspired to become.
...
Although economic centralization had to wait until political opponents and organized opposition was suppressed or liquidated, the Nazis' "new deal" began almost immediately.

For instance, in October 1933, Hitler declared that "the ruin of the German peasant will be the ruin of the German people." New farm programs were instated, along with propaganda about Blut und Bloden. Hitler appointed as head of the Ministry of Food and Agriculture Walther Darre, who in 1929 published a book, The Peasantry as the Life Source of the Nordic Race.

Darre wished to "reform" the production and marketing of food and to raise prices for farmers. Darre's entire program was designed with one objective in mind: to insulate the peasant farmer from the market."

https://mises.org...

Hardly an unbiased source. That entire article reads more like a conservative OP/ED than a political science textbook.
wsmunit7
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7/31/2015 5:00:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 4:52:40 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 4:40:47 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 4:30:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Rush Limbaugh does not call the left, fascists.

Excuse me??? Would you like me to google and directly quote him for you?

I listen to Rush Limbaugh everyday. If he did say it, it may have been once, but not regularly. But he really refrains from being hyperbolic, he's very deliberate and precise with his language and a wordsmith talk expert.

Even with Planned Parenthood chopping up, "crushing," and "crunching" babies, putting their body parts in a bowl, and then selling them for a profit in classic Joseph Mengele fashion Rush still avoiding calling them Nazis directly. He just danced around it and implied it, but said he wouldn't go that far, just that the argument could be made there is a comparison.


Fascism is centrist totalitarianism.

I cite the source for my definitions. Would you please cite your source for that one of yours?

"A number of historians regard fascism either as a revolutionary centrist doctrine, as a doctrine that mixes philosophies of the left and the right, or as both those things. Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists who combined left-wing and right-wing political views."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

From your link:

" Fascists view World War I as having made liberal democracy obsolete, and regard total mobilization of society under a totalitarian single-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict."
GeoLaureate8
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7/31/2015 5:45:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:20:27 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
Rush Limbaugh and Fascism:

http://cursor.org...

That article is full of falsehoods.

Rush does not reject modernism, he embraces capitalist tech innovation.

He does not fear difference.

He appeals to the middle class, yes. No he doesn't support Bush. He was against H. W. Bush, against George Bush, and now against Jeb Bush. Rush Limbaugh endorsed anti-war isolationist Pat Buchanan against Bush and still supports Buchanan today.

He does not support irrationalism. He is a man of reason and logic. He describes conservatism as the ideology that appeals to the intellect and liberalism appeals to irrational emotion. Liberals get upset and outraged about something and prescribe government as the solution to all of their emotional outrage.

Yes, yes he's right, there is a leftist plot. That is demonstrable.

No, he does not call immigrants and Muslims weak. He says the opposite.

The whole article is trash. Everything you think about Rush is wrong.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com...
"Liberal Fascist Bullies Have Created a Climate of Fear So You'll Give Up"

April 07, 2014

Limbaugh was referring to Liberal Fascism. If you read the transcript he directly refers to liberal fascism, and yes its a real thing, no not invented by conservatives.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wsmunit7
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7/31/2015 5:54:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Rush Limbaugh on Nazis:

http://limbaughbook.blogspot.com...
Tuesday, March 22, 2011
Limbaugh: Feminists Are Nazis

http://www.examiner.com...
Rush Limbaugh compares President Obama to the Nazis and communists
(Note: Nazism and communism are on the opposite ends of the political spectrum.)

http://contemptor.com...
Limbaugh Compares Liberals To Nazis Because They Believe In Evolution

http://bonosrama.newsvine.com...
Rush Limbaugh's liberal use of Nazi terminology
wsmunit7
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7/31/2015 6:01:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:45:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:20:27 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
Rush Limbaugh and Fascism:

http://cursor.org...

That article is full of falsehoods.

Rush does not reject modernism, he embraces capitalist tech innovation.

He does not fear difference.

He appeals to the middle class, yes. No he doesn't support Bush. He was against H. W. Bush, against George Bush, and now against Jeb Bush. Rush Limbaugh endorsed anti-war isolationist Pat Buchanan against Bush and still supports Buchanan today.

He does not support irrationalism. He is a man of reason and logic. He describes conservatism as the ideology that appeals to the intellect and liberalism appeals to irrational emotion. Liberals get upset and outraged about something and prescribe government as the solution to all of their emotional outrage.

Yes, yes he's right, there is a leftist plot. That is demonstrable.

No, he does not call immigrants and Muslims weak. He says the opposite.

The whole article is trash. Everything you think about Rush is wrong.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com...
"Liberal Fascist Bullies Have Created a Climate of Fear So You'll Give Up"

April 07, 2014

Limbaugh was referring to Liberal Fascism. If you read the transcript he directly refers to liberal fascism, and yes its a real thing, no not invented by conservatives.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

From your link directly above:

Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning is a book by Jonah Goldberg in which he argues that fascist movements were and are left-wing. Published in January 2008, it reached #1 on the New York Times Best Seller list of hardcover non-fiction in its seventh week on the list.[1] Goldberg is a syndicated columnist and the editor-at-large of National Review Online.

So you cite the "editor-at-large" of one of the most conservative groups in the USA making up his own definition to plug a book he has written?
wsmunit7
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7/31/2015 6:07:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:45:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:20:27 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
Rush Limbaugh and Fascism:

http://cursor.org...

That article is full of falsehoods.

That is a matter of opinion.

Rush does not reject modernism, he embraces capitalist tech innovation.

He does not fear difference.

He appeals to the middle class, yes. No he doesn't support Bush. He was against H. W. Bush, against George Bush, and now against Jeb Bush. Rush Limbaugh endorsed anti-war isolationist Pat Buchanan against Bush and still supports Buchanan today.

He does not support irrationalism. He is a man of reason and logic. He describes conservatism as the ideology that appeals to the intellect and liberalism appeals to irrational emotion. Liberals get upset and outraged about something and prescribe government as the solution to all of their emotional outrage.

Again, opinion. In my opinion, Rush Limbaugh is the most irrational man in America, with the possible exception of Ted Cruz.

Yes, yes he's right, there is a leftist plot. That is demonstrable.

And just what IS this "plot"?

No, he does not call immigrants and Muslims weak. He says the opposite.

The whole article is trash. Everything you think about Rush is wrong.

Or, everything YOU think about Rush is wrong. Again, a matter of opinion.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com...
"Liberal Fascist Bullies Have Created a Climate of Fear So You'll Give Up"

April 07, 2014

Limbaugh was referring to Liberal Fascism. If you read the transcript he directly refers to liberal fascism, and yes its a real thing, no not invented by conservatives.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org...
wsmunit7
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7/31/2015 6:44:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:45:56 AM, GeoLaureate8

I received a request from you, but I am totally puzzled by it. At this time, I feel I must decline.
Wylted
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7/31/2015 6:48:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
statist liberals clearly have more in common with the statist nazis than the anti statist right.
GeoLaureate8
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7/31/2015 6:55:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 6:44:25 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:45:56 AM, GeoLaureate8

I received a request from you, but I am totally puzzled by it. At this time, I feel I must decline.

It's not about being friends, it's about putting active users in the debate feed on the user home page.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wsmunit7
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7/31/2015 9:09:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 6:55:44 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 6:44:25 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:45:56 AM, GeoLaureate8

I received a request from you, but I am totally puzzled by it. At this time, I feel I must decline.

It's not about being friends, it's about putting active users in the debate feed on the user home page.

Well, thanks, but no thanks. However, I do appreciate you posts to this thread. You have proven my point and been an exemplar of the issue I made in the OP. Good job!!!!!!
The_Running_Mate
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8/2/2015 8:53:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 3:32:45 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I am often amused by those on the right (politically conservative) when they attempt to disparage those on the left (politically liberal) by attempting to label them as "Fascist" and / or "Nazis" when they are, in fact, oxymornic. They seem to be Rush Limbaugh, Mike Huckabee's and their ilk (as well as several contributors here on DDO) favorite adjectives. Unfortunately for them, all they are accomplishing is illuminating their own ignorance. If you are going to attempt to denigrate someone, you should at least have SOME idea of what you are saying. Therefore, allow me to offer a primer on political ideologies:
https://en.wikipedia.org...
Fascism (/f"@3;=8;z&#601;m/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and Anarchism. Fascism is often placed on the far-right within the traditional left"right spectrum, but some academics call that description inadequate.[3][4]
Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[12] Following World War II, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist, and the term is usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The terms neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Nazism (/G2;naH0;ts=8;zJ98;m/), or National Socialism in full (German: Nationalsozialismus), and rarely Hitlerism, was the ideology and practice of the German Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany as a whole, though it is sometimes <em>applied to other far-right groups. Usually characterised as an offshoot of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism, Nazism arose from pan-Germanism, the V"lkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps after World War I.
Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and social Darwinism. Germanic peoples (called the Nordic race) were depicted as the purest of the Aryan race, and were therefore the master race. Opposed to both capitalism and communism, it aimed to overcome social divisions, with all parts of a homogeneous society seeking national unity and traditionalism, and what it viewed as historically German territory as well as additional lands for expansion.
The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism", as an alternative to both internationalist Marxist socialism and free market capitalism. The Nazis sought to achieve this by a "people's community" (Volksgemeinschaft) with the aim of uniting all Germans as national comrades, whilst excluding those deemed either to be community aliens or of a foreign race (Fremdv"lkische). It rejected the Marxist concept of class struggle, opposed ideas of class equality and international solidarity, and sought to defend private property and businesses.


So, as one can see from above, both Fascism and Nazism are right wing ideologies, NOT liberal ideologies.
Fascism is, in fact, opposed to liberalism, just as the Republican Party in the USA is. They also favor protectionist economics. Sound familiar?
Nazism is an offshoot of fascism that incorporates racism, traditionalism, exclusion of those deemed to be aliens (xenophobia, anti-immigration), opposition to ideas of equality, and support of business. Again, sound familiar?

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality.[1][2] The former principle is stressed in classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in social liberalism.[3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free markets, civil rights</strong>, democratic societies, secular governments, and international cooperation

You make some valid points. Many people do tend to overrate the extremity of the ideologies of their political counterparts.Their opponents who dwell on the other side of the Political Spectrum. One of the first things I teach my student in my Poli Sci 101 class is that contrary to popular opinion, the GOD and the Democratic Party are NOT on opposite sides ot the political spectrum. Rather, they are right next to each other in the middle! With of course the GOP on the right-center of the line.
We would place Anarchy on the extreme left and Fascism or Totalitarian Theocracy on the extreme Right.
I also agree that thanks to the post 9/11 Bush Administration the word "liberal" has been unfairly maligned by even Moderates in America for the past 15 years or so.
16kadams
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8/2/2015 9:48:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 4:02:18 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Basing our political categories on what beliefs were held by the two parties sitting in a French legislative body several centuries ago is ridiculous. It has no bearing on the actual substance or origin of an ideology, hence the constant attempts by both party to pigeonhole the other with ideologies which both have little in common with.

I agree with this. Modern ideologies have little to do with anything that the OP even talked about. Fascism especially has no relation. It is socially conservative, so the left hates it, but they are economically liberal. (I am using the modern definitions of "conservative" and "liberal," a distinction the OP was too lazy to make because "liberal" has had many different meanings over time)

Plus, even if we assume modern ideologies had direct links to past ideologies (liberalism to socialism and communism, conservatism to fascism and Nazism) it wouldn't prove anything. It is just a dumb genetic fallacy. So, even assuming the premise that the OP is espousing is true, it doesn't mean that conservatism is wrong.

So yeah you are 100% right on this one.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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8/2/2015 9:54:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2015 8:53:29 PM, The_Running_Mate wrote:
At 7/31/2015 3:32:45 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I am often amused by those on the right (politically conservative) when they attempt to disparage those on the left (politically liberal) by attempting to label them as "Fascist" and / or "Nazis" when they are, in fact, oxymornic. They seem to be Rush Limbaugh, Mike Huckabee's and their ilk (as well as several contributors here on DDO) favorite adjectives. Unfortunately for them, all they are accomplishing is illuminating their own ignorance. If you are going to attempt to denigrate someone, you should at least have SOME idea of what you are saying. Therefore, allow me to offer a primer on political ideologies:
https://en.wikipedia.org...
Fascism (/f"@3;=8;z&#601;m/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and Anarchism. Fascism is often placed on the far-right within the traditional left"right spectrum, but some academics call that description inadequate.[3][4]
Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[12] Following World War II, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist, and the term is usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The terms neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Nazism (/G2;naH0;ts=8;zJ98;m/), or National Socialism in full (German: Nationalsozialismus), and rarely Hitlerism, was the ideology and practice of the German Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany as a whole, though it is sometimes <em>applied to other far-right groups. Usually characterised as an offshoot of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism, Nazism arose from pan-Germanism, the V"lkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps after World War I.
Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and social Darwinism. Germanic peoples (called the Nordic race) were depicted as the purest of the Aryan race, and were therefore the master race. Opposed to both capitalism and communism, it aimed to overcome social divisions, with all parts of a homogeneous society seeking national unity and traditionalism, and what it viewed as historically German territory as well as additional lands for expansion.
The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism", as an alternative to both internationalist Marxist socialism and free market capitalism. The Nazis sought to achieve this by a "people's community" (Volksgemeinschaft) with the aim of uniting all Germans as national comrades, whilst excluding those deemed either to be community aliens or of a foreign race (Fremdv"lkische). It rejected the Marxist concept of class struggle, opposed ideas of class equality and international solidarity, and sought to defend private property and businesses.


So, as one can see from above, both Fascism and Nazism are right wing ideologies, NOT liberal ideologies.
Fascism is, in fact, opposed to liberalism, just as the Republican Party in the USA is. They also favor protectionist economics. Sound familiar?
Nazism is an offshoot of fascism that incorporates racism, traditionalism, exclusion of those deemed to be aliens (xenophobia, anti-immigration), opposition to ideas of equality, and support of business. Again, sound familiar?

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality.[1][2] The former principle is stressed in classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in social liberalism.[3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free markets, civil rights</strong>, democratic societies, secular governments, and international cooperation

You make some valid points. Many people do tend to overrate the extremity of the ideologies of their political counterparts.Their opponents who dwell on the other side of the Political Spectrum. One of the first things I teach my student in my Poli Sci 101 class is that contrary to popular opinion, the GOD and the Democratic Party are NOT on opposite sides ot the political spectrum. Rather, they are right next to each other in the middle! With of course the GOP on the right-center of the line.
We would place Anarchy on the extreme left and Fascism or Totalitarian Theocracy on the extreme Right.
I also agree that thanks to the post 9/11 Bush Administration the word "liberal" has been unfairly maligned by even Moderates in America for the past 15 years or so.

wait wait wait... democrats in the center?! LOL
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Skepsikyma
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8/2/2015 10:17:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2015 9:48:57 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/31/2015 4:02:18 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Basing our political categories on what beliefs were held by the two parties sitting in a French legislative body several centuries ago is ridiculous. It has no bearing on the actual substance or origin of an ideology, hence the constant attempts by both party to pigeonhole the other with ideologies which both have little in common with.

I agree with this. Modern ideologies have little to do with anything that the OP even talked about. Fascism especially has no relation. It is socially conservative, so the left hates it, but they are economically liberal. (I am using the modern definitions of "conservative" and "liberal," a distinction the OP was too lazy to make because "liberal" has had many different meanings over time)

Plus, even if we assume modern ideologies had direct links to past ideologies (liberalism to socialism and communism, conservatism to fascism and Nazism) it wouldn't prove anything. It is just a dumb genetic fallacy. So, even assuming the premise that the OP is espousing is true, it doesn't mean that conservatism is wrong.

So yeah you are 100% right on this one.

Yep. It also hamstrings the entire political discussion by rooting everything in a church and state vs. the little people dichotomy. But within religion there's also a huge range of positions, and various political forces. Rome has revolutionized itself several time from within, and though doctrine isn't really changing, there are interesting political maneuvers going on at the moment. Sometimes the little people are bigoted and revolutionary, sometimes they are bigoted and reactionary; they are seldom voices of measured wisdom, and they aren't always liberal. Politics is always an intersection between all of the political social and powers at play in a given time in history. Ideological categorizations are useful for historical description and analysis, but using historical ideologies which are no longer functional as arguments against currently established paradigms is just silly.

I think that longing for one party rule is always a bad thing, because society is best when conflict is balanced and the passions of the various parties are tempered by compromise. I may not agree with everything that conservatives say, but I wouldn't for one moment want them all to disappear. But I feel like that's what things like the OP are getting at: trying to turn politics into The Last Alliance vs, the Forces of Mordor.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
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8/2/2015 10:58:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There are a few similarities between American liberalism and fascism: the centrist economic positions are pretty similar, and so are the mutually held views that the state should protect the people and their interests and be sort of paternalistic. There are also similarities between conservatism and fascism, namely the nationalism, militarism and social conservatism. This is expected though, because they're all capitalist ideologies. The one ideology which is really different from fascism in every respect is socialism. Of course, though, liberalism and conservatism shouldn't be conflated with fascism merely because they have a few features in common.
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The_Running_Mate
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8/3/2015 1:11:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2015 9:54:14 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 8/2/2015 8:53:29 PM, The_Running_Mate wrote:
At 7/31/2015 3:32:45 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I am often amused by those on the right (politically conservative) when they attempt to disparage those on the left (politically liberal) by attempting to label them as "Fascist" and / or "Nazis" when they are, in fact, oxymornic. They seem to be Rush Limbaugh, Mike Huckabee's and their ilk (as well as several contributors here on DDO) favorite adjectives. Unfortunately for them, all they are accomplishing is illuminating their own ignorance. If you are going to attempt to denigrate someone, you should at least have SOME idea of what you are saying. Therefore, allow me to offer a primer on political ideologies:
https://en.wikipedia.org...
Fascism (/f"@3;=8;z&#601;m/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and Anarchism. Fascism is often placed on the far-right within the traditional left"right spectrum, but some academics call that description inadequate.[3][4]
Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[12] Following World War II, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist, and the term is usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The terms neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Nazism (/G2;naH0;ts=8;zJ98;m/), or National Socialism in full (German: Nationalsozialismus), and rarely Hitlerism, was the ideology and practice of the German Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany as a whole, though it is sometimes <em>applied to other far-right groups. Usually characterised as an offshoot of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism, Nazism arose from pan-Germanism, the V"lkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps after World War I.
Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and social Darwinism. Germanic peoples (called the Nordic race) were depicted as the purest of the Aryan race, and were therefore the master race. Opposed to both capitalism and communism, it aimed to overcome social divisions, with all parts of a homogeneous society seeking national unity and traditionalism, and what it viewed as historically German territory as well as additional lands for expansion.
The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism", as an alternative to both internationalist Marxist socialism and free market capitalism. The Nazis sought to achieve this by a "people's community" (Volksgemeinschaft) with the aim of uniting all Germans as national comrades, whilst excluding those deemed either to be community aliens or of a foreign race (Fremdv"lkische). It rejected the Marxist concept of class struggle, opposed ideas of class equality and international solidarity, and sought to defend private property and businesses.


So, as one can see from above, both Fascism and Nazism are right wing ideologies, NOT liberal ideologies.
Fascism is, in fact, opposed to liberalism, just as the Republican Party in the USA is. They also favor protectionist economics. Sound familiar?
Nazism is an offshoot of fascism that incorporates racism, traditionalism, exclusion of those deemed to be aliens (xenophobia, anti-immigration), opposition to ideas of equality, and support of business. Again, sound familiar?

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality.[1][2] The former principle is stressed in classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in social liberalism.[3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free markets, civil rights</strong>, democratic societies, secular governments, and international cooperation

You make some valid points. Many people do tend to overrate the extremity of the ideologies of their political counterparts.Their opponents who dwell on the other side of the Political Spectrum. One of the first things I teach my student in my Poli Sci 101 class is that contrary to popular opinion, the GOD and the Democratic Party are NOT on opposite sides ot the political spectrum. Rather, they are right next to each other in the middle! With of course the GOP on the right-center of the line.
We would place Anarchy on the extreme left and Fascism or Totalitarian Theocracy on the extreme Right.
I also agree that thanks to the post 9/11 Bush Administration the word "liberal" has been unfairly maligned by even Moderates in America for the past 15 years or so.

wait wait wait... democrats in the center?! LOL

Yep...both of our two parties or toward the middle of the Total Spectrum. With the fare left and right being composed of the ideologies I said in my previous post. Look it up. Or take my Poli Sci 101 this fall!
The_Running_Mate
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8/3/2015 1:17:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2015 9:54:14 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 8/2/2015 8:53:29 PM, The_Running_Mate wrote:
At 7/31/2015 3:32:45 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I am often amused by those on the right (politically conservative) when they attempt to disparage those on the left (politically liberal) by attempting to label them as "Fascist" and / or "Nazis" when they are, in fact, oxymornic. They seem to be Rush Limbaugh, Mike Huckabee's and their ilk (as well as several contributors here on DDO) favorite adjectives. Unfortunately for them, all they are accomplishing is illuminating their own ignorance. If you are going to attempt to denigrate someone, you should at least have SOME idea of what you are saying. Therefore, allow me to offer a primer on political ideologies:
https://en.wikipedia.org...
Fascism (/f"@3;=8;z&#601;m/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and Anarchism. Fascism is often placed on the far-right within the traditional left"right spectrum, but some academics call that description inadequate.[3][4]
Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[12] Following World War II, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist, and the term is usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The terms neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Nazism (/G2;naH0;ts=8;zJ98;m/), or National Socialism in full (German: Nationalsozialismus), and rarely Hitlerism, was the ideology and practice of the German Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany as a whole, though it is sometimes <em>applied to other far-right groups. Usually characterised as an offshoot of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism, Nazism arose from pan-Germanism, the V"lkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps after World War I.
Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and social Darwinism. Germanic peoples (called the Nordic race) were depicted as the purest of the Aryan race, and were therefore the master race. Opposed to both capitalism and communism, it aimed to overcome social divisions, with all parts of a homogeneous society seeking national unity and traditionalism, and what it viewed as historically German territory as well as additional lands for expansion.
The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism", as an alternative to both internationalist Marxist socialism and free market capitalism. The Nazis sought to achieve this by a "people's community" (Volksgemeinschaft) with the aim of uniting all Germans as national comrades, whilst excluding those deemed either to be community aliens or of a foreign race (Fremdv"lkische). It rejected the Marxist concept of class struggle, opposed ideas of class equality and international solidarity, and sought to defend private property and businesses.


So, as one can see from above, both Fascism and Nazism are right wing ideologies, NOT liberal ideologies.
Fascism is, in fact, opposed to liberalism, just as the Republican Party in the USA is. They also favor protectionist economics. Sound familiar?
Nazism is an offshoot of fascism that incorporates racism, traditionalism, exclusion of those deemed to be aliens (xenophobia, anti-immigration), opposition to ideas of equality, and support of business. Again, sound familiar?

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality.[1][2] The former principle is stressed in classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in social liberalism.[3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free markets, civil rights</strong>, democratic societies, secular governments, and international cooperation

You make some valid points. Many people do tend to overrate the extremity of the ideologies of their political counterparts.Their opponents who dwell on the other side of the Political Spectrum. One of the first things I teach my student in my Poli Sci 101 class is that contrary to popular opinion, the GOD and the Democratic Party are NOT on opposite sides ot the political spectrum. Rather, they are right next to each other in the middle! With of course the GOP on the right-center of the line.
We would place Anarchy on the extreme left and Fascism or Totalitarian Theocracy on the extreme Right.
I also agree that thanks to the post 9/11 Bush Administration the word "liberal" has been unfairly maligned by even Moderates in America for the past 15 years or so.

wait wait wait... democrats in the center?! LOL

Check out some of these Graphs and Charts depicting Political Ideology Spectrum's. You'll se what I am talking about and how my OP might make more sense to you. The one I have enlarged on the page is the one I sometimes use in my class. You will know that in America Dems nor GOPers are ever Anarchists or Totalitarian Fascists. Hence, toward the median and NOT on left or right extreme edges of the Spectrum. Any more questions, please ask!

https://www.google.com...
16kadams
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8/3/2015 2:28:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 1:17:26 AM, The_Running_Mate wrote:
At 8/2/2015 9:54:14 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 8/2/2015 8:53:29 PM, The_Running_Mate wrote:
At 7/31/2015 3:32:45 AM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I am often amused by those on the right (politically conservative) when they attempt to disparage those on the left (politically liberal) by attempting to label them as "Fascist" and / or "Nazis" when they are, in fact, oxymornic. They seem to be Rush Limbaugh, Mike Huckabee's and their ilk (as well as several contributors here on DDO) favorite adjectives. Unfortunately for them, all they are accomplishing is illuminating their own ignorance. If you are going to attempt to denigrate someone, you should at least have SOME idea of what you are saying. Therefore, allow me to offer a primer on political ideologies:
https://en.wikipedia.org...
Fascism (/f"@3;=8;z&#601;m/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and Anarchism. Fascism is often placed on the far-right within the traditional left"right spectrum, but some academics call that description inadequate.[3][4]
Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[12] Following World War II, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist, and the term is usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The terms neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Nazism (/G2;naH0;ts=8;zJ98;m/), or National Socialism in full (German: Nationalsozialismus), and rarely Hitlerism, was the ideology and practice of the German Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany as a whole, though it is sometimes <em>applied to other far-right groups. Usually characterised as an offshoot of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism, Nazism arose from pan-Germanism, the V"lkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps after World War I.
Nazism subscribed to theories of racial hierarchy and social Darwinism. Germanic peoples (called the Nordic race) were depicted as the purest of the Aryan race, and were therefore the master race. Opposed to both capitalism and communism, it aimed to overcome social divisions, with all parts of a homogeneous society seeking national unity and traditionalism, and what it viewed as historically German territory as well as additional lands for expansion.
The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism", as an alternative to both internationalist Marxist socialism and free market capitalism. The Nazis sought to achieve this by a "people's community" (Volksgemeinschaft) with the aim of uniting all Germans as national comrades, whilst excluding those deemed either to be community aliens or of a foreign race (Fremdv"lkische). It rejected the Marxist concept of class struggle, opposed ideas of class equality and international solidarity, and sought to defend private property and businesses.


So, as one can see from above, both Fascism and Nazism are right wing ideologies, NOT liberal ideologies.
Fascism is, in fact, opposed to liberalism, just as the Republican Party in the USA is. They also favor protectionist economics. Sound familiar?
Nazism is an offshoot of fascism that incorporates racism, traditionalism, exclusion of those deemed to be aliens (xenophobia, anti-immigration), opposition to ideas of equality, and support of business. Again, sound familiar?

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality.[1][2] The former principle is stressed in classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in social liberalism.[3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free markets, civil rights</strong>, democratic societies, secular governments, and international cooperation

You make some valid points. Many people do tend to overrate the extremity of the ideologies of their political counterparts.Their opponents who dwell on the other side of the Political Spectrum. One of the first things I teach my student in my Poli Sci 101 class is that contrary to popular opinion, the GOD and the Democratic Party are NOT on opposite sides ot the political spectrum. Rather, they are right next to each other in the middle! With of course the GOP on the right-center of the line.
We would place Anarchy on the extreme left and Fascism or Totalitarian Theocracy on the extreme Right.
I also agree that thanks to the post 9/11 Bush Administration the word "liberal" has been unfairly maligned by even Moderates in America for the past 15 years or so.

wait wait wait... democrats in the center?! LOL


Check out some of these Graphs and Charts depicting Political Ideology Spectrum's. You'll se what I am talking about and how my OP might make more sense to you. The one I have enlarged on the page is the one I sometimes use in my class. You will know that in America Dems nor GOPers are ever Anarchists or Totalitarian Fascists. Hence, toward the median and NOT on left or right extreme edges of the Spectrum. Any more questions, please ask!

https://www.google.com...

I think the bases of both political parties drift further away from the center, while the establishments are probably right where they are on that line.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross