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Why do conservatives oppose healthcare rights

GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/31/2015 5:48:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Healthcare is not a right. If you believe healthcare is a right, you believe in slavery.

You do NOT have a right to the servitude of others. You do not get to coerce doctors and hospital staff and subject them to conscription in service of your "health care right."
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
16kadams
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7/31/2015 6:15:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I am aiming against the meaning of what you said, not the literal meaning (well, at least at first).

You assume the government is the best way to give people a right to health care.
- There are two main pathways for health care reform: cost reduction and access increase
- Free market health care systems could easily reduce costs, whereas single payer systems are unlikely to decrease costs in any significant manner. Not only this, but they would bring a lot of unintended negative consequences as well.
> Free market health care (of course, not entirely free market, but more market forces than we have now) would decrease costs. I am of the belief that if you decrease costs, access inevitably increases. These reforms (HSAs, ending ICD-10, etc.) would, in effect, convey the "right" of health care to people without liberal solutions.

So, in effect, I technically do see health care as a right because my reforms both lower costs AND increase access, meaning more people receive medical attention when needed.

Now, to answer the question directly, I don't think it is. We may have a right to life, but we are not obligated to force others to give us that right. Now, some people out of the kindness of their heart can--and should be socially applauded for--giving out free medical services (or services at reduced cost), but there is no reason to force people to do such a thing.

Is there a right to healthcare? probably not. But conservatives are not heartless; in fact, their policies better address the situation and make it easier for the poor to gain medical care when required.
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tejretics
Posts: 6,081
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7/31/2015 6:33:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 6:15:56 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I am aiming against the meaning of what you said, not the literal meaning (well, at least at first).

You assume the government is the best way to give people a right to health care.
- There are two main pathways for health care reform: cost reduction and access increase
- Free market health care systems could easily reduce costs, whereas single payer systems are unlikely to decrease costs in any significant manner. Not only this, but they would bring a lot of unintended negative consequences as well.
> Free market health care (of course, not entirely free market, but more market forces than we have now) would decrease costs. I am of the belief that if you decrease costs, access inevitably increases. These reforms (HSAs, ending ICD-10, etc.) would, in effect, convey the "right" of health care to people without liberal solutions.

So, in effect, I technically do see health care as a right because my reforms both lower costs AND increase access, meaning more people receive medical attention when needed.

Now, to answer the question directly, I don't think it is. We may have a right to life, but we are not obligated to force others to give us that right. Now, some people out of the kindness of their heart can--and should be socially applauded for--giving out free medical services (or services at reduced cost), but there is no reason to force people to do such a thing.

Is there a right to healthcare? probably not. But conservatives are not heartless; in fact, their policies better address the situation and make it easier for the poor to gain medical care when required.

This might be a bit off-topic, but why are conservatives con-gay marriage?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
GeoLaureate8
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7/31/2015 6:42:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 6:33:51 AM, tejretics wrote:
This might be a bit off-topic, but why are conservatives con-gay marriage?

We're not, there is no such thing as "gay marriage." We're against the big government "gay agenda" that is out to destroy the Constitution.

You might want to create a new thread to address the topic.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
n7
Posts: 1,358
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7/31/2015 3:56:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 6:42:40 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 6:33:51 AM, tejretics wrote:
This might be a bit off-topic, but why are conservatives con-gay marriage?

We're not, there is no such thing as "gay marriage." We're against the big government "gay agenda" that is out to destroy the Constitution.

You might want to create a new thread to address the topic.

Just the other day I had a gay person hand me a flyer on the pros of being gay. He then smiled at me and tried to touch my butt.

This gay agenda is real guys.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
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7/31/2015 4:07:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 6:33:51 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 7/31/2015 6:15:56 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I am aiming against the meaning of what you said, not the literal meaning (well, at least at first).

You assume the government is the best way to give people a right to health care.
- There are two main pathways for health care reform: cost reduction and access increase
- Free market health care systems could easily reduce costs, whereas single payer systems are unlikely to decrease costs in any significant manner. Not only this, but they would bring a lot of unintended negative consequences as well.
> Free market health care (of course, not entirely free market, but more market forces than we have now) would decrease costs. I am of the belief that if you decrease costs, access inevitably increases. These reforms (HSAs, ending ICD-10, etc.) would, in effect, convey the "right" of health care to people without liberal solutions.

So, in effect, I technically do see health care as a right because my reforms both lower costs AND increase access, meaning more people receive medical attention when needed.

Now, to answer the question directly, I don't think it is. We may have a right to life, but we are not obligated to force others to give us that right. Now, some people out of the kindness of their heart can--and should be socially applauded for--giving out free medical services (or services at reduced cost), but there is no reason to force people to do such a thing.

Is there a right to healthcare? probably not. But conservatives are not heartless; in fact, their policies better address the situation and make it easier for the poor to gain medical care when required.

This might be a bit off-topic, but why are conservatives con-gay marriage?

There are various wings of Conservatism in the United States. There's fiscal conservatism, foreign policy conservatism, social conservatism, etc (though many conservatives typically share all these traits). Social Conservatism, linked to Evangelical Christianity, holds that monogamous, heterosexual, lifelong marriage is the only good kind of marriage, and the only acceptable venue for sexual relations. Gay marriage, obviously, disagrees with the "heterosexual" aspect of this idea, which Evangelicals hold to be extremely important. Thus, many don't recognize same-sex marriage as legitimate marriage, but rather as two men or two women pretending to be married.
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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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7/31/2015 4:25:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 6:33:51 AM, tejretics wrote:

This might be a bit off-topic, but why are conservatives con-gay marriage?

Oh, and if you remember Prop 8 in California in 2008, which IIRC was an amendment to ban gay marriage in the state, it was expected to go in favor of the gay rights groups, but given all the new registrations from the election (mostly black and youth voters who came out to vote of Obama), Prop 8's fate did a 180.
This suggests that anti-gay sentiment is not only in conservative circles, since the black community is very much DFL (like, some 90%).
Further, if you look at #blacklivesmatter's website, is appears a major thing they are trying to change is the black community's view on gays in general.

So, while it appears conservatives, and the GOP in particular, are opposed to gay marraige, it is largely a religious issue, and so many people ignore the religious left.
My work here is, finally, done.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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7/31/2015 4:26:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

We have a right to not be hunted down murdered and slain or poisoned, but nobody has a right to near immortality.

When you say healthcare is a right, potentially, everyone should be allowed to drain the wealth of every nation for the millions of dollars required to survive past the age of 90.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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7/31/2015 9:01:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 6:33:51 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 7/31/2015 6:15:56 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I am aiming against the meaning of what you said, not the literal meaning (well, at least at first).

You assume the government is the best way to give people a right to health care.
- There are two main pathways for health care reform: cost reduction and access increase
- Free market health care systems could easily reduce costs, whereas single payer systems are unlikely to decrease costs in any significant manner. Not only this, but they would bring a lot of unintended negative consequences as well.
> Free market health care (of course, not entirely free market, but more market forces than we have now) would decrease costs. I am of the belief that if you decrease costs, access inevitably increases. These reforms (HSAs, ending ICD-10, etc.) would, in effect, convey the "right" of health care to people without liberal solutions.

So, in effect, I technically do see health care as a right because my reforms both lower costs AND increase access, meaning more people receive medical attention when needed.

Now, to answer the question directly, I don't think it is. We may have a right to life, but we are not obligated to force others to give us that right. Now, some people out of the kindness of their heart can--and should be socially applauded for--giving out free medical services (or services at reduced cost), but there is no reason to force people to do such a thing.

Is there a right to healthcare? probably not. But conservatives are not heartless; in fact, their policies better address the situation and make it easier for the poor to gain medical care when required.

This might be a bit off-topic, but why are conservatives con-gay marriage?

Because they feel as though marriage is an important institution for society, and that allowing homosexuals access may weaken the institution. So theoretically that would increase government control by having to expand welfare in order to deal with poverty, police in order to deal with crime, and overall spending measures to make up for the marriage deficit. They are correct in that weakening marriage is a bad thing--and that SSM could theoretically do that--but we have little evidence of that. We need at least 20 or 30 years before we find out, lol.

See, this is an issue where I still favor the universal civil union thing, but I don't know of any policies that would actually strengthen the institution we call "marriage" to prevent those social ills. Doing what I would would probably destroy the institution and its benefits it brings to society, but it would help the homosexuals a lot... So I really don't know. I will have to wait 20 years before I know :P
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ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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7/31/2015 11:06:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 4:26:35 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

We have a right to not be hunted down murdered and slain or poisoned, but nobody has a right to near immortality.

When you say healthcare is a right, potentially, everyone should be allowed to drain the wealth of every nation for the millions of dollars required to survive past the age of 90.

Conservatives are selfish for not wanting people to have healthcare and contraception. My body, my right to choose. If I do not want to be sick or injured, I do not have to. You have no right to my body. Conservatives only care abiout money, not people.
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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7/31/2015 11:09:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Healthcare is not a right. If you believe healthcare is a right, you believe in slavery.

You do NOT have a right to the servitude of others. You do not get to coerce doctors and hospital staff and subject them to conscription in service of your "health care right."

Yes it is. I have the right to my body.
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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7/31/2015 11:10:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Healthcare is not a right. If you believe healthcare is a right, you believe in slavery.

You do NOT have a right to the servitude of others. You do not get to coerce doctors and hospital staff and subject them to conscription in service of your "health care right."

Strawman fallacy. I oppose slavery.
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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7/31/2015 11:13:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Healthcare is not a right. If you believe healthcare is a right, you believe in slavery.

You do NOT have a right to the servitude of others. You do not get to coerce doctors and hospital staff and subject them to conscription in service of your "health care right."

If you believe that people should be denied healthcare, you are a fascist, see how that works?
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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8/1/2015 12:41:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Healthcare is not a right. If you believe healthcare is a right, you believe in slavery.

You do NOT have a right to the servitude of others. You do not get to coerce doctors and hospital staff and subject them to conscription in service of your "health care right."

Did you really compare healthcare rights to slavery? That is the most ridiculous red herring argument I have heard in a while.
briantheliberal
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8/1/2015 12:46:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 6:42:40 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 6:33:51 AM, tejretics wrote:
This might be a bit off-topic, but why are conservatives con-gay marriage?

We're not, there is no such thing as "gay marriage." We're against the big government "gay agenda" that is out to destroy the Constitution.

You might want to create a new thread to address the topic.

There you go again with these logically fallacious arguments. One, there is a such thing as "gay marriage" seeing as people of the same sex can and do get married. Two, there is no such thing as the "gay agenda" that is "out to destroy the Constitution". This is nothing more than a fear mongering tactic and excuse to justify violating the rights of gay American citizens. And lastly, if you actually knew anything about the U.S. Constitution, it clearly says nothing about marriage only being between two people of the opposite sex, and by effectively denying same sex couples from getting married, you are violating their 14th Amendment rights, which is unconstitutional.
16kadams
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8/1/2015 1:27:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 11:13:36 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:48:56 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Healthcare is not a right. If you believe healthcare is a right, you believe in slavery.

You do NOT have a right to the servitude of others. You do not get to coerce doctors and hospital staff and subject them to conscription in service of your "health care right."

If you believe that people should be denied healthcare, you are a fascist, see how that works?

Fascism is not necessarily against health care being a right... they support private industries being controlled by the state. They could easily manufacture a single payer system controlled by the government under the premise that health care is a right. Therefore, fascists don't necessarily oppose the idea of healthcare being a "right".
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/1/2015 1:50:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I'm a conservative Independent. So I think maybe I can speak a bit for most of us in this topic. Your title is a Straw Man. We don't oppose health care "rights." We would like to see all Americans have reasonably access to quality health care. What we oppose is Obama Care. Socialized medicine. We believe this is going to be a cluster-f*ck of gigantic proportions. MD's know this too, which is why most of them oppose it as well. We just think there are different methods--not as drastic--as what Obama has written into law. Mark me words...Universal Care will be a huge mess. And remember that Universal "coverage" does not equal Universal "care." As you will see.
A better start to getting everybody affordable health care would be to have simply reeled-in the insurance companies and made them cover more people for less. We could subsidize them for this and it would cost far less than Obama Care will. We also would like to have reeled-in Big Pharma to lower their prices, by using the same methods. But Obama just over-swung is all. Too much too soon. The health care industry is not ready for it.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
ILoveSitarMusic
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8/1/2015 2:00:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 1:50:57 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I'm a conservative Independent. So I think maybe I can speak a bit for most of us in this topic. Your title is a Straw Man. We don't oppose health care "rights." We would like to see all Americans have reasonably access to quality health care. What we oppose is Obama Care. Socialized medicine. We believe this is going to be a cluster-f*ck of gigantic proportions. MD's know this too, which is why most of them oppose it as well. We just think there are different methods--not as drastic--as what Obama has written into law. Mark me words...Universal Care will be a huge mess. And remember that Universal "coverage" does not equal Universal "care." As you will see.
A better start to getting everybody affordable health care would be to have simply reeled-in the insurance companies and made them cover more people for less. We could subsidize them for this and it would cost far less than Obama Care will. We also would like to have reeled-in Big Pharma to lower their prices, by using the same methods. But Obama just over-swung is all. Too much too soon. The health care industry is not ready for it.

Fallacy fallacy. Disagreement does not equal a fallacy. All of the conservatives I have dealt with oppose healthcare and contraceptive rights. You need to stop CONtrolling other people. Conservatives ALWAYS scream "not my wallet", and "healthcare is not a right" ad nauseum. Reich wingers claim to be about liberty, but the are not. If you committ the fallacy fallacy one more time, I will block you. It is a fact that conservatives oppose healthcare rights All I hear when you speak is "blah, blah, blah.
August_Burns_Red
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8/1/2015 2:04:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 2:00:03 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/1/2015 1:50:57 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I'm a conservative Independent. So I think maybe I can speak a bit for most of us in this topic. Your title is a Straw Man. We don't oppose health care "rights." We would like to see all Americans have reasonably access to quality health care. What we oppose is Obama Care. Socialized medicine. We believe this is going to be a cluster-f*ck of gigantic proportions. MD's know this too, which is why most of them oppose it as well. We just think there are different methods--not as drastic--as what Obama has written into law. Mark me words...Universal Care will be a huge mess. And remember that Universal "coverage" does not equal Universal "care." As you will see.
A better start to getting everybody affordable health care would be to have simply reeled-in the insurance companies and made them cover more people for less. We could subsidize them for this and it would cost far less than Obama Care will. We also would like to have reeled-in Big Pharma to lower their prices, by using the same methods. But Obama just over-swung is all. Too much too soon. The health care industry is not ready for it.

Fallacy fallacy. Disagreement does not equal a fallacy. All of the conservatives I have dealt with oppose healthcare and contraceptive rights. You need to stop CONtrolling other people. Conservatives ALWAYS scream "not my wallet", and "healthcare is not a right" ad nauseum. Reich wingers claim to be about liberty, but the are not. If you committ the fallacy fallacy one more time, I will block you. It is a fact that conservatives oppose healthcare rights All I hear when you speak is "blah, blah, blah.

You are hanging around with the wrong conservatives, bro. That type of thinking is for the extreme Right Wing. The Libertarians. Please be aware that there is a whole group out there who call ourselves Moderates. Or Compassionate Conservatives. Go ahead and block me if you dont want to learn a bit about Political Science. And look up the word "conservative" while you're blocking me. I used to be a campaign worker (I minored in Poli Sci in college) for a GOP congressman in California. He agreed to all I said in my OP about health care. What's your political Sci experience? Just curious. Thank you!
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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8/1/2015 2:07:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 2:04:46 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/1/2015 2:00:03 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/1/2015 1:50:57 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I'm a conservative Independent. So I think maybe I can speak a bit for most of us in this topic. Your title is a Straw Man. We don't oppose health care "rights." We would like to see all Americans have reasonably access to quality health care. What we oppose is Obama Care. Socialized medicine. We believe this is going to be a cluster-f*ck of gigantic proportions. MD's know this too, which is why most of them oppose it as well. We just think there are different methods--not as drastic--as what Obama has written into law. Mark me words...Universal Care will be a huge mess. And remember that Universal "coverage" does not equal Universal "care." As you will see.
A better start to getting everybody affordable health care would be to have simply reeled-in the insurance companies and made them cover more people for less. We could subsidize them for this and it would cost far less than Obama Care will. We also would like to have reeled-in Big Pharma to lower their prices, by using the same methods. But Obama just over-swung is all. Too much too soon. The health care industry is not ready for it.

Fallacy fallacy. Disagreement does not equal a fallacy. All of the conservatives I have dealt with oppose healthcare and contraceptive rights. You need to stop CONtrolling other people. Conservatives ALWAYS scream "not my wallet", and "healthcare is not a right" ad nauseum. Reich wingers claim to be about liberty, but the are not. If you committ the fallacy fallacy one more time, I will block you. It is a fact that conservatives oppose healthcare rights All I hear when you speak is "blah, blah, blah.

You are hanging around with the wrong conservatives, bro. That type of thinking is for the extreme Right Wing. The Libertarians. Please be aware that there is a whole group out there who call ourselves Moderates. Or Compassionate Conservatives. Go ahead and block me if you dont want to learn a bit about Political Science. And look up the word "conservative" while you're blocking me. I used to be a campaign worker (I minored in Poli Sci in college) for a GOP congressman in California. He agreed to all I said in my OP about health care. What's your political Sci experience? Just curious. Thank you!

It is the conservatives who oppose Obama's healthcare plan.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/1/2015 2:13:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 2:07:52 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/1/2015 2:04:46 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/1/2015 2:00:03 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/1/2015 1:50:57 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I'm a conservative Independent. So I think maybe I can speak a bit for most of us in this topic. Your title is a Straw Man. We don't oppose health care "rights." We would like to see all Americans have reasonably access to quality health care. What we oppose is Obama Care. Socialized medicine. We believe this is going to be a cluster-f*ck of gigantic proportions. MD's know this too, which is why most of them oppose it as well. We just think there are different methods--not as drastic--as what Obama has written into law. Mark me words...Universal Care will be a huge mess. And remember that Universal "coverage" does not equal Universal "care." As you will see.
A better start to getting everybody affordable health care would be to have simply reeled-in the insurance companies and made them cover more people for less. We could subsidize them for this and it would cost far less than Obama Care will. We also would like to have reeled-in Big Pharma to lower their prices, by using the same methods. But Obama just over-swung is all. Too much too soon. The health care industry is not ready for it.

Fallacy fallacy. Disagreement does not equal a fallacy. All of the conservatives I have dealt with oppose healthcare and contraceptive rights. You need to stop CONtrolling other people. Conservatives ALWAYS scream "not my wallet", and "healthcare is not a right" ad nauseum. Reich wingers claim to be about liberty, but the are not. If you committ the fallacy fallacy one more time, I will block you. It is a fact that conservatives oppose healthcare rights All I hear when you speak is "blah, blah, blah.

You are hanging around with the wrong conservatives, bro. That type of thinking is for the extreme Right Wing. The Libertarians. Please be aware that there is a whole group out there who call ourselves Moderates. Or Compassionate Conservatives. Go ahead and block me if you dont want to learn a bit about Political Science. And look up the word "conservative" while you're blocking me. I used to be a campaign worker (I minored in Poli Sci in college) for a GOP congressman in California. He agreed to all I said in my OP about health care. What's your political Sci experience? Just curious. Thank you!

It is the conservatives who oppose Obama's healthcare plan.

are you retarded? Or just dont read too well. YES! Conservatives AND MODERATES oppose it for the REASONS I SAID IN MY OP!!

Wow.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
August_Burns_Red
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8/1/2015 2:15:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

read this before you block me. Hope it helps!

http://www.businessinsider.com...
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
August_Burns_Red
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8/1/2015 2:16:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 6:15:56 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I am aiming against the meaning of what you said, not the literal meaning (well, at least at first).

You assume the government is the best way to give people a right to health care.
- There are two main pathways for health care reform: cost reduction and access increase
- Free market health care systems could easily reduce costs, whereas single payer systems are unlikely to decrease costs in any significant manner. Not only this, but they would bring a lot of unintended negative consequences as well.
> Free market health care (of course, not entirely free market, but more market forces than we have now) would decrease costs. I am of the belief that if you decrease costs, access inevitably increases. These reforms (HSAs, ending ICD-10, etc.) would, in effect, convey the "right" of health care to people without liberal solutions.

So, in effect, I technically do see health care as a right because my reforms both lower costs AND increase access, meaning more people receive medical attention when needed.

Now, to answer the question directly, I don't think it is. We may have a right to life, but we are not obligated to force others to give us that right. Now, some people out of the kindness of their heart can--and should be socially applauded for--giving out free medical services (or services at reduced cost), but there is no reason to force people to do such a thing.

Is there a right to healthcare? probably not. But conservatives are not heartless; in fact, their policies better address the situation and make it easier for the poor to gain medical care when required.

Link please? On some of the GOP's alternative ideas to Obama Care? Thanks!
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
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8/1/2015 2:17:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 2:07:52 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/1/2015 2:04:46 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/1/2015 2:00:03 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/1/2015 1:50:57 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I'm a conservative Independent. So I think maybe I can speak a bit for most of us in this topic. Your title is a Straw Man. We don't oppose health care "rights." We would like to see all Americans have reasonably access to quality health care. What we oppose is Obama Care. Socialized medicine. We believe this is going to be a cluster-f*ck of gigantic proportions. MD's know this too, which is why most of them oppose it as well. We just think there are different methods--not as drastic--as what Obama has written into law. Mark me words...Universal Care will be a huge mess. And remember that Universal "coverage" does not equal Universal "care." As you will see.
A better start to getting everybody affordable health care would be to have simply reeled-in the insurance companies and made them cover more people for less. We could subsidize them for this and it would cost far less than Obama Care will. We also would like to have reeled-in Big Pharma to lower their prices, by using the same methods. But Obama just over-swung is all. Too much too soon. The health care industry is not ready for it.

Fallacy fallacy. Disagreement does not equal a fallacy. All of the conservatives I have dealt with oppose healthcare and contraceptive rights. You need to stop CONtrolling other people. Conservatives ALWAYS scream "not my wallet", and "healthcare is not a right" ad nauseum. Reich wingers claim to be about liberty, but the are not. If you committ the fallacy fallacy one more time, I will block you. It is a fact that conservatives oppose healthcare rights All I hear when you speak is "blah, blah, blah.

You are hanging around with the wrong conservatives, bro. That type of thinking is for the extreme Right Wing. The Libertarians. Please be aware that there is a whole group out there who call ourselves Moderates. Or Compassionate Conservatives. Go ahead and block me if you dont want to learn a bit about Political Science. And look up the word "conservative" while you're blocking me. I used to be a campaign worker (I minored in Poli Sci in college) for a GOP congressman in California. He agreed to all I said in my OP about health care. What's your political Sci experience? Just curious. Thank you!

It is the conservatives who oppose Obama's healthcare plan.

Several things about the plan:
1. If it pays for people's healthcare, then it's bound to increase taxes. Somebody's gonna have to pay more for it. It's easy to think that those "dang rich folks" should pay for it just because they're rich and that they somehow owe us for being rich, but they don't want to have to pay for you and me.
2. If it only pays part of the price to simply make it affordable, then that's a bit more acceptable.
3. If it forces health insurance people to charge less, then those health insurance people will make less money and they might not even make a profit, discouraging people from entering the field of health insurance and causing a few companies to hold a huge monopoly.
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ax123man
Posts: 317
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8/1/2015 2:30:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The rights you are entitled to are negative rights: the right to NOT be killed, punched, or stolen from. These rights are essentially free and certainly moral and just. However, the "right" to healthcare is a positive right - it requires the use of a scarce resource. Since resources, like health care, are scarce, they cannot simply be conjured up out of nothing based on claims of rights.

So how do we avoid conflict when resources are scarce and everyone wants has much of those resources as they can get? We establish rules of private property. You own what you create and can then trade what you own for other resources. There is no other way, well, except by some form of theft. So your claim that health care is a right is really just an underhanded way of claiming that theft should be legitimized.

Why are so many claiming this right recently? Wouldn't have anything to do with politicians making the same statement would it? Politicians who are essentially trying to buy your vote.

And I'd also like to mention that at one time in our country, doctors treated those who couldn't pay for free. Why do you think that stopped? (a lesson for another day)
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/1/2015 3:07:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I hope my link and my political info helped you a bit understand us Moderates' problems with, and alternatives to, Obama Care. Here;s one more I have always liked too! Read it at your leisure--maybe while listening to some Ravi Shankar?--and let me know what you think. If you ever have any Poli Sci questions please don't hesitate to ask. I'm here to help.
God Bless.

http://www.bloombergview.com...
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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8/1/2015 3:21:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 2:30:02 AM, ax123man wrote:
The rights you are entitled to are negative rights: the right to NOT be killed, punched, or stolen from. These rights are essentially free and certainly moral and just. However, the "right" to healthcare is a positive right - it requires the use of a scarce resource. Since resources, like health care, are scarce, they cannot simply be conjured up out of nothing based on claims of rights.

So how do we avoid conflict when resources are scarce and everyone wants has much of those resources as they can get? We establish rules of private property. You own what you create and can then trade what you own for other resources. There is no other way, well, except by some form of theft. So your claim that health care is a right is really just an underhanded way of claiming that theft should be legitimized.

Why are so many claiming this right recently? Wouldn't have anything to do with politicians making the same statement would it? Politicians who are essentially trying to buy your vote.

And I'd also like to mention that at one time in our country, doctors treated those who couldn't pay for free. Why do you think that stopped? (a lesson for another day)

I have the right to choose what to do with my body.
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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8/1/2015 3:23:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 2:17:36 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 8/1/2015 2:07:52 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/1/2015 2:04:46 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/1/2015 2:00:03 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/1/2015 1:50:57 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

I'm a conservative Independent. So I think maybe I can speak a bit for most of us in this topic. Your title is a Straw Man. We don't oppose health care "rights." We would like to see all Americans have reasonably access to quality health care. What we oppose is Obama Care. Socialized medicine. We believe this is going to be a cluster-f*ck of gigantic proportions. MD's know this too, which is why most of them oppose it as well. We just think there are different methods--not as drastic--as what Obama has written into law. Mark me words...Universal Care will be a huge mess. And remember that Universal "coverage" does not equal Universal "care." As you will see.
A better start to getting everybody affordable health care would be to have simply reeled-in the insurance companies and made them cover more people for less. We could subsidize them for this and it would cost far less than Obama Care will. We also would like to have reeled-in Big Pharma to lower their prices, by using the same methods. But Obama just over-swung is all. Too much too soon. The health care industry is not ready for it.

Fallacy fallacy. Disagreement does not equal a fallacy. All of the conservatives I have dealt with oppose healthcare and contraceptive rights. You need to stop CONtrolling other people. Conservatives ALWAYS scream "not my wallet", and "healthcare is not a right" ad nauseum. Reich wingers claim to be about liberty, but the are not. If you committ the fallacy fallacy one more time, I will block you. It is a fact that conservatives oppose healthcare rights All I hear when you speak is "blah, blah, blah.

You are hanging around with the wrong conservatives, bro. That type of thinking is for the extreme Right Wing. The Libertarians. Please be aware that there is a whole group out there who call ourselves Moderates. Or Compassionate Conservatives. Go ahead and block me if you dont want to learn a bit about Political Science. And look up the word "conservative" while you're blocking me. I used to be a campaign worker (I minored in Poli Sci in college) for a GOP congressman in California. He agreed to all I said in my OP about health care. What's your political Sci experience? Just curious. Thank you!

It is the conservatives who oppose Obama's healthcare plan.

Several things about the plan:
1. If it pays for people's healthcare, then it's bound to increase taxes. Somebody's gonna have to pay more for it. It's easy to think that those "dang rich folks" should pay for it just because they're rich and that they somehow owe us for being rich, but they don't want to have to pay for you and me.
2. If it only pays part of the price to simply make it affordable, then that's a bit more acceptable.
3. If it forces health insurance people to charge less, then those health insurance people will make less money and they might not even make a profit, discouraging people from entering the field of health insurance and causing a few companies to hold a huge monopoly.
Fact: Obama has a good healthcare plan. He made healthcare affordable. You will NOT change my mind on healthcare RIGHTS.
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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8/1/2015 3:26:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 2:15:46 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:26:30 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Healthcare is a right.

read this before you block me. Hope it helps!

http://www.businessinsider.com...

I will not change my mind.