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American gun policy looking from the outside

Elli87e
Posts: 45
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8/9/2015 11:49:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am not American. But your culture is of course a big part of the Northern Europe as well. We have taken in a lot of your ways of doing things. Especially when it comes to media, movies, commercials. We salute you :) I think its awesome and I've always been intrigued when it comes to the US. In so many ways we are the same. And then there are some extremes that we do not condone at all here.

We read headlines. Shootings. Every single day. We have awful headlines here as well. We have sick people here. Of course America has more because the nation is so big! But if you look at the difference...taking size into account, we just don't have any shootings going on. It happens once in a blue moon. I remember 4-5 years ago there were some gang related shootings here in Copenhagen. But thats it. Our police officers NEVER draw a weapon. They have one of course. But they are trained NOT to draw it. Why? Because when you take a heated situation where people are stressed, pressured, angry, afraid and you then imagine: BAM here is a gun in your hand! Now is that not very obvious what will happen?
We have criminals! Many! But we never have crazy mass shootings. We have a criminal who kills his girlfriend or something like that. Just as awful but there is not much you can do to prevent something like that from happening. Can you prevent a 4 year old from shooting his mommy? Yeah I kinda think you can.

From our point of view (looking in to the US without living there) its is insane. There are no normal people in this country who would ever own a gun. Never. We don't see the reason.
I understand the thought of all criminals owning guns and people therefor feeling scared. But its a never ending circle.
If you count accidental shootings, school shooting, mass shootings and just murder cases that are not gang related etc and then compare with the cases where intruders come into people's homes and just shoot them...does it add up? I don't know the numbers so I am asking you!
My point is: is it worth all the innocent people dying to own a gun so YOU can sleep well at night? Is it not a bit too "every man for himself"? How about taking a collective responsibility?

I am not just looking at your headlines and getting mad and deciding guns should be banned. I actually did follow this discussion for years and I have looked at it from both sides. I usually hear the same arguments from Americans so I would find it interesting if we could take the following out of the discussion:

1. The Constitution! It is just not a valid reason for keeping a law that is causing deaths! We have a law like yours. It has a lot of meaning to the Danish people! That does not mean that we did not change it in 40 years!? Just because it says so on a piece of paper does not mean its non debatable.

2. "Stay out of US". Ah yes. The never ending "this aint your business". To me that is just a way of saying that you only care about yourself. The world is my business. Children dying is my business. And America is not exactly a nation that keep to itself now is it? So that argument is just ignorant and I have heard it too many times! I don't get the defensive about Denmark because we don't think that our country is without flaw. Many Americans do! The day I stop being critical about my society you may take one of your guns and shoot me!!

3. "Denmark sucks". Haha. Yeah. Sure it does. This is sadly the "go to" argument a lot of Americans use, when I state something remotely negative about the US. And then I get the "you pay 65% in taxes (no we pay 36%)", or the "you are a socialist country (yeah well we don't live in the streets)". It is irrelevant to this discussion. I am not bashing America I am talking about a problem about people getting killed. Just as we could discuss ISIS, racism, etc etc

Yup. That was it.
ecco
Posts: 180
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8/9/2015 1:07:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/9/2015 11:49:18 AM, Elli87e wrote:
I am not American.
<snip long post>

I am an American. I agree completely with your well written comments.

In the 21st Century, "foreign terrorists" have killed fewer the 5000 American civilians in this country; in the same time frame American civilians have killed over 150,000 American civilians in this country.
Think
Elli87e
Posts: 45
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8/9/2015 4:13:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/9/2015 1:07:01 PM, ecco wrote:
At 8/9/2015 11:49:18 AM, Elli87e wrote:
I am not American.
<snip long post>

I am an American. I agree completely with your well written comments.

In the 21st Century, "foreign terrorists" have killed fewer the 5000 American civilians in this country; in the same time frame American civilians have killed over 150,000 American civilians in this country.

That is actually a very good point. Maybe its time for a bit of perspective on things.

I understand that its not something you just change over night. America is a nation build with guns. No arguing there. Just like my country was a part of a killing, raping, stealing viking society. But that was just way more years ago. If that took place just 100 years ago I am sure my country would be violent! It takes times to escape a history. And I don't think anyone would try to argue that there is not a history of violence in America that is not that long ago. You see it in Europe as well...I mean Germany is not even allowed to have a real military! It takes time to build up a trust. History has to be changed by people deciding that this is not what we want out of our lives and country.
So of course it is quite astonishing to see that so many people still argue the RIGHT to have a gun. The right? Actually we have a law here that forbids us from carrying a knife for any reason. Even if you just bought it for slicing up some chicken. Its stupid. But nobody is ever saying they have a RIGHT to carry a knife. But I think that Danish society is more about the greater good than just the individual. Thats how we build our social system. Right. Its a strange way of putting it in my view. If lives are saved and my life is actually not really in danger then what does a right mean? It makes no sense to me.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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8/10/2015 5:59:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Most countries see Americans as invaders and want to shoot them when they are not fighting out of planes. So it is surprising more Americans are killed by Americans in their own country. But why should that be unusual?
Americans are just as despicable and unneighbourly in their own country and the constitution gives people the right to protect themselves from such unwelcome influences.
What is unusual is more than 42% of Americans do not accept evolution. Yet their gun policies are designed along natural selection or social Darwinism.
jnedwards11
Posts: 352
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8/11/2015 3:10:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/9/2015 11:49:18 AM, Elli87e wrote:
I am not American. But your culture is of course a big part of the Northern Europe as well. We have taken in a lot of your ways of doing things. Especially when it comes to media, movies, commercials. We salute you :) I think its awesome and I've always been intrigued when it comes to the US. In so many ways we are the same. And then there are some extremes that we do not condone at all here.

We read headlines. Shootings. Every single day. We have awful headlines here as well. We have sick people here. Of course America has more because the nation is so big! But if you look at the difference...taking size into account, we just don't have any shootings going on. It happens once in a blue moon. I remember 4-5 years ago there were some gang related shootings here in Copenhagen. But thats it. Our police officers NEVER draw a weapon. They have one of course. But they are trained NOT to draw it. Why? Because when you take a heated situation where people are stressed, pressured, angry, afraid and you then imagine: BAM here is a gun in your hand! Now is that not very obvious what will happen?
We have criminals! Many! But we never have crazy mass shootings. We have a criminal who kills his girlfriend or something like that. Just as awful but there is not much you can do to prevent something like that from happening. Can you prevent a 4 year old from shooting his mommy? Yeah I kinda think you can.

You can easily prevent this by being a responsible gun owner. Many many millions of Americans safely keep guns in the same home as their children everyday without incident. The millions of us Americans who are competent gun owners believe it is the job of society to prevent tragedies such as you've described, not the government. When children drown in your country, to cry out for the government to ban swimming?

From our point of view (looking in to the US without living there) its is insane. There are no normal people in this country who would ever own a gun. Never. We don't see the reason.

Do people get robbed, molested and murdered in your country? None of those people would have used a gun if they had one? I think this statement is pure exaggeration. You don't speak for your entire country. And even representing a majority does not, ipso-facto, prove your argument. It could be that a majority of your country has it all wrong.

I understand the thought of all criminals owning guns and people therefor feeling scared. But its a never ending circle.
If you count accidental shootings, school shooting, mass shootings and just murder cases that are not gang related etc and then compare with the cases where intruders come into people's homes and just shoot them...does it add up? I don't know the numbers so I am asking you!

Well no, by your very difficult standards it would likely not add up. However if you do not set the ridiculous standard of actually shooting someone, then the"defensive" use of firearms vastly outnumber the cases you've described. You don't have to fire a bullet to effectively defend yourself with a firearm. In some cases, a criminal just seeing it on your hip could stop a crime, and no one would ever know.

My point is: is it worth all the innocent people dying to own a gun so YOU can sleep well at night? Is it not a bit too "every man for himself"? How about taking a collective responsibility?

Good responsible people owning guns is being collectively responsible. And to answer your very one sided and rhetorical question bluntly. Yes, our freedoms are positively worth the deaths of innocents.

I am not just looking at your headlines and getting mad and deciding guns should be banned. I actually did follow this discussion for years and I have looked at it from both sides. I usually hear the same arguments from Americans so I would find it interesting if we could take the following out of the discussion:

1. The Constitution! It is just not a valid reason for keeping a law that is causing deaths! We have a law like yours. It has a lot of meaning to the Danish people! That does not mean that we did not change it in 40 years!? Just because it says so on a piece of paper does not mean its non debatable.

Lol, the law does not cause deaths, that is opinion based rhetoric with nary a single piece of substance. Regardless though, the words on the paper represent a reason for having put them there. As the last great hope for freedom in this world, we believe bearing arms is essential in protecting ourselves from the tragedies that have befallen countless other governments throughout human history..

2. "Stay out of US". Ah yes. The never ending "this aint your business". To me that is just a way of saying that you only care about yourself. The world is my business. Children dying is my business. And America is not exactly a nation that keep to itself now is it? So that argument is just ignorant and I have heard it too many times! I don't get the defensive about Denmark because we don't think that our country is without flaw. Many Americans do! The day I stop being critical about my society you may take one of your guns and shoot me!!

If you are worried about the dying babies of the world then there are plenty of other countries with way bigger problems than us (and extensive gun laws to boot). Why choose this issue in our country to write your diatribe if babies of the world are your ultimate concern?

3. "Denmark sucks". Haha. Yeah. Sure it does. This is sadly the "go to" argument a lot of Americans use, when I state something remotely negative about the US. And then I get the "you pay 65% in taxes (no we pay 36%)", or the "you are a socialist country (yeah well we don't live in the streets)". It is irrelevant to this discussion. I am not bashing America I am talking about a problem about people getting killed. Just as we could discuss ISIS, racism, etc etc

I think they probably just mean "Denmark sucks.....compared to the U.S." Which is fair, if you're a gun lover, capitalist, like winning sports teams, enjoy top notch entertainment, like having a melting pot of cultures in your back yard, prefer being globally dominant, feel safer having the baddest a$$ military in the entire world, or just like living life to the fullest in general. Don't take it personally. We feel that way about most every country.

Yup. That was it.

Me too, I think
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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8/11/2015 4:04:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/9/2015 11:49:18 AM, Elli87e wrote:


We read headlines. Shootings. Every single day. We have awful headlines here as well. We have sick people here. Of course America has more because the nation is so big! But if you look at the difference...taking size into account, we just don't have any shootings going on. It happens once in a blue moon. I remember 4-5 years ago there were some gang related shootings here in Copenhagen. But thats it. Our police officers NEVER draw a weapon. They have one of course. But they are trained NOT to draw it. Why? Because when you take a heated situation where people are stressed, pressured, angry, afraid and you then imagine: BAM here is a gun in your hand! Now is that not very obvious what will happen?

Well, we had higher crime than most European countries before they severely restricted firearms. Also, the fact that the media reports on it at all demonstrates how rare of a phenomena it actually is. What is interesting is that the rate of mass shootings has not really increased despite an explosion in the number of guns in this country (http://papers.ssrn.com... for rate of mass shootings; http://dailycaller.com... gun stats).

We have criminals! Many! But we never have crazy mass shootings. We have a criminal who kills his girlfriend or something like that. Just as awful but there is not much you can do to prevent something like that from happening. Can you prevent a 4 year old from shooting his mommy? Yeah I kinda think you can.

... Norway? That guy bought guns ILLEGALLY and killed like 50 people. Germany has had a few mass shootings. IT is much more important to look at murder rates rather than mass shootings since they are a very very very small portion of the deaths in this country. Firearms murder has been falling in this country (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org...).


From our point of view (looking in to the US without living there) its is insane. There are no normal people in this country who would ever own a gun. Never. We don't see the reason.

You don't need a reason to own something, you need a reason to change the status quo and take it away.

I understand the thought of all criminals owning guns and people therefor feeling scared. But its a never ending circle.

You have to establish that firearms cause crime. They do. But they can also reduce it directly (by defense) or indirectly (by deterrence). We have evidence of both. The defense numbers vary significantly, from a low of 30,000 to a high of 2.5 million. I tend to think it is somewhere in between--anti gun surveys have gotten numbers between 300,000 to 1.5 million. That seems like a reasonable range. Though the evidence suggests that guns are used in defense about as often, if not moreso, than violent crimes in this country.

Evidence of deterrence:
http://homepages.wmich.edu...
http://repec.iza.org...
https://law.wm.edu...
http://www.utdallas.edu...

Evidence of defensive use:
http://www.guncite.com...
http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu...

If you count accidental shootings, school shooting, mass shootings and just murder cases that are not gang related etc and then compare with the cases where intruders come into people's homes and just shoot them...does it add up? I don't know the numbers so I am asking you!

More kids drown than get shot by firearms accidentally (http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org...).

The simple fact is, it is not that simple. In American society, firearms seem to have a dampening effect on homicide (reduce crime) rather than increase it. Of course, that is not to say that we need *some* control--guns in the hands of criminals are bad, but in the hands of law-abiding citizens they are good. Increasing the number in the latter group and decreasing it in the former would actually save lives. You have to weigh in more than just deaths--that is all you are doing! You have to weigh in lives saved by deterrence and self-defense.

My point is: is it worth all the innocent people dying to own a gun so YOU can sleep well at night? Is it not a bit too "every man for himself"? How about taking a collective responsibility?

Well... I like how you specifically single the reader out. Even assuming guns, on balance, increase crime... You are assuming that the specific gun that I own is causing crime? It doesn't. This was worded poorly. Regardless, I hope that the literature on the issue I gave above at lease convinces you that we aren't all rednecks who like to shoot people. The simple fact is, guns reduce crime in the US, and there is evidence that gun prohibition would make crime worse.

Of course, I support some gun controls (mostly for knee-jerk reactions) even though some evidence suggests they don't work. But, in theory, t hey work. So I support those :P
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Logical-Master
Posts: 2,538
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8/11/2015 4:48:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/9/2015 11:49:18 AM, Elli87e wrote:
I am not American. But your culture is of course a big part of the Northern Europe as well. We have taken in a lot of your ways of doing things. Especially when it comes to media, movies, commercials. We salute you :) I think its awesome and I've always been intrigued when it comes to the US. In so many ways we are the same. And then there are some extremes that we do not condone at all here.

We read headlines. Shootings. Every single day. We have awful headlines here as well. We have sick people here. Of course America has more because the nation is so big! But if you look at the difference...taking size into account, we just don't have any shootings going on. It happens once in a blue moon. I remember 4-5 years ago there were some gang related shootings here in Copenhagen. But thats it. Our police officers NEVER draw a weapon. They have one of course. But they are trained NOT to draw it. Why? Because when you take a heated situation where people are stressed, pressured, angry, afraid and you then imagine: BAM here is a gun in your hand! Now is that not very obvious what will happen?
We have criminals! Many! But we never have crazy mass shootings. We have a criminal who kills his girlfriend or something like that. Just as awful but there is not much you can do to prevent something like that from happening. Can you prevent a 4 year old from shooting his mommy? Yeah I kinda think you can.

From our point of view (looking in to the US without living there) its is insane. There are no normal people in this country who would ever own a gun. Never. We don't see the reason.
I understand the thought of all criminals owning guns and people therefor feeling scared. But its a never ending circle.
If you count accidental shootings, school shooting, mass shootings and just murder cases that are not gang related etc and then compare with the cases where intruders come into people's homes and just shoot them...does it add up? I don't know the numbers so I am asking you!
My point is: is it worth all the innocent people dying to own a gun so YOU can sleep well at night? Is it not a bit too "every man for himself"? How about taking a collective responsibility?


I am not just looking at your headlines and getting mad and deciding guns should be banned. I actually did follow this discussion for years and I have looked at it from both sides. I usually hear the same arguments from Americans so I would find it interesting if we could take the following out of the discussion:

1. The Constitution! It is just not a valid reason for keeping a law that is causing deaths! We have a law like yours. It has a lot of meaning to the Danish people! That does not mean that we did not change it in 40 years!? Just because it says so on a piece of paper does not mean its non debatable.

2. "Stay out of US". Ah yes. The never ending "this aint your business". To me that is just a way of saying that you only care about yourself. The world is my business. Children dying is my business. And America is not exactly a nation that keep to itself now is it? So that argument is just ignorant and I have heard it too many times! I don't get the defensive about Denmark because we don't think that our country is without flaw. Many Americans do! The day I stop being critical about my society you may take one of your guns and shoot me!!

3. "Denmark sucks". Haha. Yeah. Sure it does. This is sadly the "go to" argument a lot of Americans use, when I state something remotely negative about the US. And then I get the "you pay 65% in taxes (no we pay 36%)", or the "you are a socialist country (yeah well we don't live in the streets)". It is irrelevant to this discussion. I am not bashing America I am talking about a problem about people getting killed. Just as we could discuss ISIS, racism, etc etc

Yup. That was it.

You're reading a lot of sensationalized media. Unfortunately, unreliable when it comes to matters regarding gun ownership. This same sensationalized media appears very disinterested in discussing the appalling murder rates in places such as Chicago and Detroit. Especially the black on black crimes for some reason.

Much of gun crime is incidentally in places with the most gun restrictions. Places like Detroit and Chicago run rampant with blood. Places like Lubbock Texas run rampant with guns, but very little gun crime. Throughout the US, you are about as likely to get killed with a gun as you are to get killed in automobile accident.

Criminals don't suddenly pop up out of thin air because they realize "Hey, I can get a gun! I'm going to go kill people!" Rather, we have some cultural issues that these same headlines you refer to are never interested in addressing.
JMcKinley
Posts: 314
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8/11/2015 5:24:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
When you ban guns, gun crime does shrink. There is statistical proof of this but I can't be bothered to search it out right now. But gun crime is only part of the picture.

Overall crime does not shrink after a gun ban. In fact it tends to grow. Especially break-and-enter type crime. This is also statistically proven, but once again, I don't have the time to search that out for you right now. I believe the studies were done on both England and Australia with regards to this if you want to search it out for yourself.

So for the purpose of crime reduction, gun bans are ineffective. They do reduce gun-related crime. But violent crime in general does not decrease significantly. Tackling crime requires a different approach.

At this point the only justifications for a ban that remain are to reduce gun accidents and to reduce the occurrence of "madman shootings". These are areas in which smart gun laws can make a real difference. Safe storage laws, awareness and enforcement are worthy of our time. Also mandatory background checks (that actually work nationwide) and potentially a licensing system would work wonders here. But I would argue that an outright ban is not necessary to see significant improvement in those areas. Just smart gun laws.

I don't understand why so many Americans are so steadfastly resistant to any gun laws at all. After all there are clearly problems in their current system. But I also don't understand why people continue to think that a ban is going to improve matters. There is no good reason to resist a few intelligent gun laws aimed at tackling the problems of accidental deaths and madman shooting sprees. But there is also no good reason to outright ban all firearms. An intelligent, targeted approach is the answer.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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8/11/2015 5:53:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The constitution gives Americans the right to bear arms. The courts also recognize the need to protect those Americans who use guns to kill other Americans and protects them under the insanity plea. When you have so many mentally ill Americans running around with guns many are bound to get killed and the constitution and courts enshrine common sense conclusions.
What is over reaching in the constitution is giving Americans the right to bear arms against foreign countries under the Bush Doctrine (preemptive strikes) or in the pretext of regime change. The backlash from such shortsighted policies has given the jihadist the moral right to kill all and any American.
Oddly America is determined to disarm Iran of nuclear weapons when it has none and ignores the fact Israel has over a 100 nuclear bombs. America is the only country to have used nuclear bombs in the bombing of Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki). Why such hypocrisy?
Fly
Posts: 2,049
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8/11/2015 6:43:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/9/2015 4:13:50 PM, Elli87e wrote:
At 8/9/2015 1:07:01 PM, ecco wrote:
At 8/9/2015 11:49:18 AM, Elli87e wrote:
I am not American.
<snip long post>

I am an American. I agree completely with your well written comments.

In the 21st Century, "foreign terrorists" have killed fewer the 5000 American civilians in this country; in the same time frame American civilians have killed over 150,000 American civilians in this country.

That is actually a very good point. Maybe its time for a bit of perspective on things.

I understand that its not something you just change over night. America is a nation build with guns. No arguing there. Just like my country was a part of a killing, raping, stealing viking society. But that was just way more years ago. If that took place just 100 years ago I am sure my country would be violent! It takes times to escape a history. And I don't think anyone would try to argue that there is not a history of violence in America that is not that long ago. You see it in Europe as well...I mean Germany is not even allowed to have a real military! It takes time to build up a trust. History has to be changed by people deciding that this is not what we want out of our lives and country.
So of course it is quite astonishing to see that so many people still argue the RIGHT to have a gun. The right? Actually we have a law here that forbids us from carrying a knife for any reason. Even if you just bought it for slicing up some chicken. Its stupid. But nobody is ever saying they have a RIGHT to carry a knife. But I think that Danish society is more about the greater good than just the individual. Thats how we build our social system. Right. Its a strange way of putting it in my view. If lives are saved and my life is actually not really in danger then what does a right mean? It makes no sense to me.

As you have already astutely pointed out, firearms are part of American culture. The US is a country that was founded upon a revolutionary war, and it was during a time when firearm technology was advancing quite steadily.

Because of this, there is a very entrenched arms manufacturing industry in the US-- we are one of the biggest arms exporters in the world. That pretty much rules out an outright ban right there.

The firearms lobby is one of the most powerful lobbies in this country, and it engages heavily in "slippery slope" rhetoric. That is why it is so difficult to get much at all in the way of effective measures passed-- even those measures which are labelled as "common sense."

Although loathe to admit it, the most irrefutable argument that gun fetishists have in their arsenal is, as one comedian put it, "Screw off! We LIKE guns."
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Elli87e
Posts: 45
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8/11/2015 8:21:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You're reading a lot of sensationalized media. Unfortunately, unreliable when it comes to matters regarding gun ownership. This same sensationalized media appears very disinterested in discussing the appalling murder rates in places such as Chicago and Detroit. Especially the black on black crimes for some reason.
I actually stated very clearly that I do not just read headlines but actually have followed this a lot. I don't believe that because there are 100 bad things to discuss you can't bring out one and talk about that. I believe its okay to concentrate on one thing. Otherwise we could go on and on and we would end up talking about starving children. Cause that is a subject much more serious right now.

Criminals don't suddenly pop up out of thin air because they realize "Hey, I can get a gun! I'm going to go kill people!" Rather, we have some cultural issues that these same headlines you refer to are never interested in addressing.
No I don't think so either. They don't decide to be criminals because they have a gun. But if you take petty crime and put a gun into a situation you might end up with a murder case when all you had to begin with was a desperate dude looking for cash.

Yes you are very right. Its not just "the gun". I hear a lot of people arguing their points saying stuff like "would you not want to shoot a man who attacked you". And the answer is no. And that is a cultural difference. We don't believe in punishing anything by death.
I have an example from my own life. I was going home from a night out. A drunk guy sneaks up on me to ask me for direction. i was listening to music and got really scared when he was suddenly there. What if I had been scared...walking on the street with a hand on a small pistol in my purse? Just for protection! But that second I got so frightened...I could have shot him!! And would that have been a good situation?
Vox_Veritas
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8/11/2015 8:57:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/9/2015 11:49:18 AM, Elli87e wrote:
I am not American. But your culture is of course a big part of the Northern Europe as well. We have taken in a lot of your ways of doing things. Especially when it comes to media, movies, commercials. We salute you :) I think its awesome and I've always been intrigued when it comes to the US. In so many ways we are the same. And then there are some extremes that we do not condone at all here.

We read headlines. Shootings. Every single day. We have awful headlines here as well. We have sick people here. Of course America has more because the nation is so big! But if you look at the difference...taking size into account, we just don't have any shootings going on. It happens once in a blue moon. I remember 4-5 years ago there were some gang related shootings here in Copenhagen. But thats it. Our police officers NEVER draw a weapon. They have one of course. But they are trained NOT to draw it. Why? Because when you take a heated situation where people are stressed, pressured, angry, afraid and you then imagine: BAM here is a gun in your hand! Now is that not very obvious what will happen?
We have criminals! Many! But we never have crazy mass shootings. We have a criminal who kills his girlfriend or something like that. Just as awful but there is not much you can do to prevent something like that from happening. Can you prevent a 4 year old from shooting his mommy? Yeah I kinda think you can.

From our point of view (looking in to the US without living there) its is insane. There are no normal people in this country who would ever own a gun. Never. We don't see the reason.
I understand the thought of all criminals owning guns and people therefor feeling scared. But its a never ending circle.
If you count accidental shootings, school shooting, mass shootings and just murder cases that are not gang related etc and then compare with the cases where intruders come into people's homes and just shoot them...does it add up? I don't know the numbers so I am asking you!
My point is: is it worth all the innocent people dying to own a gun so YOU can sleep well at night? Is it not a bit too "every man for himself"? How about taking a collective responsibility?


I am not just looking at your headlines and getting mad and deciding guns should be banned. I actually did follow this discussion for years and I have looked at it from both sides. I usually hear the same arguments from Americans so I would find it interesting if we could take the following out of the discussion:

1. The Constitution! It is just not a valid reason for keeping a law that is causing deaths! We have a law like yours. It has a lot of meaning to the Danish people! That does not mean that we did not change it in 40 years!? Just because it says so on a piece of paper does not mean its non debatable.

2. "Stay out of US". Ah yes. The never ending "this aint your business". To me that is just a way of saying that you only care about yourself. The world is my business. Children dying is my business. And America is not exactly a nation that keep to itself now is it? So that argument is just ignorant and I have heard it too many times! I don't get the defensive about Denmark because we don't think that our country is without flaw. Many Americans do! The day I stop being critical about my society you may take one of your guns and shoot me!!

3. "Denmark sucks". Haha. Yeah. Sure it does. This is sadly the "go to" argument a lot of Americans use, when I state something remotely negative about the US. And then I get the "you pay 65% in taxes (no we pay 36%)", or the "you are a socialist country (yeah well we don't live in the streets)". It is irrelevant to this discussion. I am not bashing America I am talking about a problem about people getting killed. Just as we could discuss ISIS, racism, etc etc

Yup. That was it.

Wait...Mirza did you get banned?
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Vox_Veritas
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8/11/2015 9:21:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Switzerland also has a very high gun rate. In Switzerland in 2010 there were 240 murders and attempted murders. Guns do not by themselves cause a high crime rate. Other factors do, such as:

1. Large poor population
2. More individualistic culture

There are, of course, some advantages to it. For instance, in our history there has never been an attempt by the Government to dominate the populace and rule it with an iron fist. Though a separation of powers played a very large part in this, so did the gun culture probably. During WWII the Japanese forces did not invade the United States because there'd be "a rifle behind every blade of grass". This would probably apply even today. Very hard to occupy a country where most adult males (and many females) have guns. Also, a country with large amounts of gun usage has probably benefited the quality of our military. One famous American war hero during WW1 grew up in the Appalachians, using his gun for hunting and contests often.

And of course, by this point there are hundreds of millions of guns. You can't get rid of them all, especially in a country this big. In the short term and possibly the long term this would result in a massive spike in gun violence. And of course, guns have been used for hunting and defensive purposes for a long time. Crime rates are actually declining now, though gun ownership is still very high.
It is noteworthy that stricter gun laws exist in Mexico than in the United States

Basically guns are, with both benefits and drawbacks attached to them, too important a part of American culture to give up and frankly, it'd be very difficult to implement.
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Vox_Veritas
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8/11/2015 10:05:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 10:00:07 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/11/2015 8:57:11 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Wait...Mirza did you get banned?
You wish. :)

I mean seriously; that guy not only spouting the typical anti-America stuff you're associated with but he even implied that he's from Denmark. Is he related to you?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Mirza
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8/11/2015 10:08:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 10:05:33 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I mean seriously; that guy not only spouting the typical anti-America stuff you're associated with but he even implied that he's from Denmark. Is he related to you?
No. I don't recruit people for this. Maybe I will when I lead Europe's siege against you, but that's a little early to talk about. :)
Elli87e
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8/13/2015 5:55:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 5:53:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The constitution gives Americans the right to bear arms. The courts also recognize the need to protect those Americans who use guns to kill other Americans and protects them under the insanity plea. When you have so many mentally ill Americans running around with guns many are bound to get killed and the constitution and courts enshrine common sense conclusions.
What is over reaching in the constitution is giving Americans the right to bear arms against foreign countries under the Bush Doctrine (preemptive strikes) or in the pretext of regime change. The backlash from such shortsighted policies has given the jihadist the moral right to kill all and any American.
Oddly America is determined to disarm Iran of nuclear weapons when it has none and ignores the fact Israel has over a 100 nuclear bombs. America is the only country to have used nuclear bombs in the bombing of Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki). Why such hypocrisy?

I can only agree with you.

Especially on the last part! Its the mentality...

You can't think if you are sure that you are right. And Americans are sure.
Mirza
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8/13/2015 5:59:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 5:55:12 PM, Elli87e wrote:
You can't think if you are sure that you are right. And Americans are sure.
Americans are crazy, but I don't think the gun policy is the best target with your criticism. However, their mentality and love for guns does say something.
Elli87e
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8/13/2015 6:00:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 10:05:33 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 8/11/2015 10:00:07 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/11/2015 8:57:11 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Wait...Mirza did you get banned?
You wish. :)

I mean seriously; that guy not only spouting the typical anti-America stuff you're associated with but he even implied that he's from Denmark. Is he related to you?

1. Hu?
2. Im sorry what now?
3. I made it very clear that this was meant as a valid discussion and I even said that this was not about bashing America. But hey...leave it up to Americans to get all defensive (yes now I made general assumption). Pointing out a huge gap in a society does not make you anti anything. I will now point out a huge problem here in Denmark (oh lord does that make me anti Denmark?? And if so am I then betraying my country by setting standards? ....og wait...Im Danish...we don't care about that kind of stuff...proud to be one but never ever will I stop being critical towards society). But here goes: we have racism. Like America we have had terror attacks. I think its an increasing problem that creates violence and hate. What do we do about it? Sit back and say "hey well its our right to throw any people we want out of our country"...or do we act in a constructive way?
Elli87e
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8/13/2015 8:52:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 9:21:12 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Switzerland also has a very high gun rate. In Switzerland in 2010 there were 240 murders and attempted murders. Guns do not by themselves cause a high crime rate. Other factors do, such as:

1. Large poor population
2. More individualistic culture

There are, of course, some advantages to it. For instance, in our history there has never been an attempt by the Government to dominate the populace and rule it with an iron fist. Though a separation of powers played a very large part in this, so did the gun culture probably. During WWII the Japanese forces did not invade the United States because there'd be "a rifle behind every blade of grass". This would probably apply even today. Very hard to occupy a country where most adult males (and many females) have guns. Also, a country with large amounts of gun usage has probably benefited the quality of our military. One famous American war hero during WW1 grew up in the Appalachians, using his gun for hunting and contests often.

And of course, by this point there are hundreds of millions of guns. You can't get rid of them all, especially in a country this big. In the short term and possibly the long term this would result in a massive spike in gun violence. And of course, guns have been used for hunting and defensive purposes for a long time. Crime rates are actually declining now, though gun ownership is still very high.
It is noteworthy that stricter gun laws exist in Mexico than in the United States

Basically guns are, with both benefits and drawbacks attached to them, too important a part of American culture to give up and frankly, it'd be very difficult to implement.

I am not sure what you mean about "individualistic culture". Scandinavian countries are build for individuals. You can be what ever you want in this country and we are not so judgemental so it is possible to live lives in a very individual way. If you mean the "every man for himself" kind of mentality I believe you are right. America has a culture that does not take enough care of the weak (or as much as us at least).

We have many many hunters. We have a lot of forest as our country is not very populated in many areas. I know many people with riffles. But they are (by law) locked up all the time. Of course there are cases where a crazy person will use a hunting riffle to hurt other or commit suicide. But I don't remember the last time I ever heard of that. I never heard of those riffles being used on intruders, attackers etc.
So how come? Its cultural. Its just not in our culture. You value your military and put soldier on a pedestal. Police officers as well. We do have a lot of respect for the police and we are happy to have a PROTECTIVE military. But ask the average Dane about our soldiers going to Iraq and most people will be against it. We were utterly unprepared when the Germans attacked in WWII! But times are different today. We know better. We can protect. But we don't want to attack.
I hear so many Americans saying "wouldn't you want to shoot a guy who tried to rape you?". The answer is no. I can't go on living knowing I killed a man. And we do not believe in punishing a crime with death.

I don't think you can just outlaw guns. There are too many out there as you said. But you could try to look into the way you think! When a mom just keeps a gun in her purse so her 4 year old can grab it there is something wrong. Of course that mom is insane. But also its a mentality all over the country. Same with police officers. Here they never get hurt! I remember one case of gang related criminal acts here in Copenhagen where an officer got shot. Years ago. They never take out their guns! Why do you have so many shootings involving police? Because the mentality is that you just take out your gun! The absolute last resort for a Danish cop would be to use a gun.

Its not the number of guns (or it kinda is but thats too late now). Its the entire way you think about the use of guns!