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Why "Hookup Culture" is Bad

ToddsAmerica
Posts: 28
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8/13/2015 2:06:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Many on the left dislike traditional gender roles and views about sexuality. They view them as outdated, unneeded, and, in the case of the farther left, oppressive (particularly against women).

This crowd tends to celebrate 'hookup culture' as a benchmark of a society that is more sexually liberated and less restrictive. A culture where sex is merely a source of mutual enjoyment. Women are finally becoming more free to express and act on sexual desires!

The problem is, as usual, this view is simply ignorant of the basic reality of human nature. Traditional norms regarding sexuality did not pop out of thin air. They have existed for centuries largely to help civilize people and direct individuals towards less harmful and more productive lifestyles.

Pre Christian, pagan societies were much more sexually liberated than enlightened Europe in the 1500s. And, contrary to what many believe, sexual liberation involved far more exploitation and oppression than boring old monogamy.

Sexual liberation basically plays into the basic human urge to procreate, procreate, procreate. It is the same norm that existed in hunter gatherer societies.

What happens in a state of sexual liberation is that a few, aggressive men tend to monopolize female reproductive capacity. They oftentimes achieve that monopoly through violence, by the way.

The poor beta males who are left without sex in this natural state basically just make trouble. They get in fights. They commit crimes. They obsess over doing extraordinary (but often stupid) things to impress women enough so, perhaps, they can gain access to females.

Studies have shown that, in high school, boys who do better academically are more likely to be virgins than their poorer performing (but louder and more athletic) male peers. There is no such negative effect on females.

This goes back to the basic fact of human reproduction. Women are much more in demand than men. Even attractive men can often have a hard time "getting laid" even if they try hard. Even unattractive women just have to be willing to have sex to have guys surrounding them ready to engage in intercourse.

Of course, this is due to the fact that females have a lower reproductive capacity than men. A baby requires a lot of investment for women (9 months) and only one ejaculation for men (9 seconds?).

That means that, in a tribal society, one man and 50 women can keep the population going. The reverse is not true.

I digress....

Anyways, hookup culture is not, as many claim, a triumph of progress. But a return to prehistoric norms. Prehistoric norms that ultimately led to no social order, high amounts of danger, and no real progress.

The golden age of monogamy was also the golden age of human progress. It would be unwise to celebrate the end of this age as a win for progress when it was really the exact opposite.

The reality of modern hookup culture has been a decline in happiness for women who at their core are not meant to be so promiscuous, an explosion in single motherhood, and a campus rape epidemic based on a culture that has done away with any discouragement of people from pursuing their short term pleasure. It's left millennials without meaning in their life. In short: it's been a miserable failure and we should recognize it as such.
ecco
Posts: 180
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8/15/2015 9:11:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:06:14 AM, ToddsAmerica wrote:

Anyways, hookup culture is not, as many claim, a triumph of progress. But a return to prehistoric norms. Prehistoric norms that ultimately led to no social order, high amounts of danger, and no real progress.

How do you know what was going on in prehistoric times?

The golden age of monogamy was also the golden age of human progress. It would be unwise to celebrate the end of this age as a win for progress when it was really the exact opposite.

When was "The golden age of monogamy"?
Think
jimtimmy8
Posts: 383
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8/15/2015 9:13:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/15/2015 9:11:51 PM, ecco wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:06:14 AM, ToddsAmerica wrote:


Anyways, hookup culture is not, as many claim, a triumph of progress. But a return to prehistoric norms. Prehistoric norms that ultimately led to no social order, high amounts of danger, and no real progress.

How do you know what was going on in prehistoric times?

I would say that it is a safe bet that strict monogamy wasn't the norm in prehistoric human tribes.



The golden age of monogamy was also the golden age of human progress. It would be unwise to celebrate the end of this age as a win for progress when it was really the exact opposite.


When was "The golden age of monogamy"?

Maybe 1500 to 1960 or so?
jimtimmy8
Posts: 383
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8/15/2015 9:15:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/15/2015 9:13:28 PM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
At 8/15/2015 9:11:51 PM, ecco wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:06:14 AM, ToddsAmerica wrote:


Anyways, hookup culture is not, as many claim, a triumph of progress. But a return to prehistoric norms. Prehistoric norms that ultimately led to no social order, high amounts of danger, and no real progress.

How do you know what was going on in prehistoric times?


I would say that it is a safe bet that strict monogamy wasn't the norm in prehistoric human tribes.




The golden age of monogamy was also the golden age of human progress. It would be unwise to celebrate the end of this age as a win for progress when it was really the exact opposite.


When was "The golden age of monogamy"?


Maybe 1500 to 1960 or so?

It's pretty well established from genetic research that a few men did all the reproducing with many women. Most men were left out.[

80% of women that have ever lived have reproduced...only 40%of men have
breaxxbaxx
Posts: 40
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8/15/2015 10:05:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think one big thing to note, that you missed, on the liberal perspective of "hook-up culture" would be the big emphasis on consent and sexual health. Now, this is particularly emphasized in feminist circles, but making sure that while you can make your own choices in regards to how you'd like to express your sexuality, you should also keep yourself educated as well. The number one rule being, make sure you and the person you are with are comfortable and safe in what you are doing.

Long story short, just because there is more of an encouragement for a bit of freedom when it comes to sex, that doesn't mean that you don't also carry responsibilities in that freedom.
ecco
Posts: 180
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8/16/2015 2:54:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/15/2015 9:13:28 PM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
At 8/15/2015 9:11:51 PM, ecco wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:06:14 AM, ToddsAmerica wrote:


Anyways, hookup culture is not, as many claim, a triumph of progress. But a return to prehistoric norms. Prehistoric norms that ultimately led to no social order, high amounts of danger, and no real progress.



The golden age of monogamy was also the golden age of human progress. It would be unwise to celebrate the end of this age as a win for progress when it was really the exact opposite.


When was "The golden age of monogamy"?


Maybe 1500 to 1960 or so?

I googled The golden age of monogamy.

Nothing comes up. It seems you coined that phrase - that's OK. Originality is good.
But now it becomes your burden to provide evidence for it.

Several articles don't support the notion that there was a golden age of monogamy in the 1500's or the 1800's:

http://fascinatinghistory.blogspot.com...
Prostitution of course was also very popular and as men have always been prepared to pay extra for having a virgin, the Elizabethans came up with a liquid, which once applied would draw the muscles / tissue very closely together and stiffen them up, thus giving the 'client' the impression of virginity. Henry VIII had closed all brothels in 1546 but his son Edward VI later had them re-opened. The South Bank was the most popular place for brothels, but they could also be found in poverty-stricken areas of Westminster and Shoreditch - even to this day parts of Shoreditch carry on this legacy.

http://www.independent.co.uk...
In Britain the ideal of the middle-class wife, safely installed with her family in a bourgeois home, was the universal ideal. But the repression of natural urges led to a dark underground world of debauchery and vice. As the purity of the wifely figure was promoted (once-a-month sex was generally considered enough), prostitution became more widespread than ever before. In 1839, in London, a city of two million inhabitants, there were estimated to be around 80,000 prostitutes.


The ball is in your court.

.
.
.
.

Just rereading this before I posted and realized it was two different people making claims.

ToddsAmerica - Please show when and what you believe the golden age of monogamy was.
jimtimmy8 - Please provide evidence for why you believe that the 16th and 19th Centuries were part of a golden age of monogamy.
Think
jimtimmy8
Posts: 383
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8/16/2015 7:34:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/16/2015 2:54:47 AM, ecco wrote:
At 8/15/2015 9:13:28 PM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
At 8/15/2015 9:11:51 PM, ecco wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:06:14 AM, ToddsAmerica wrote:


Anyways, hookup culture is not, as many claim, a triumph of progress. But a return to prehistoric norms. Prehistoric norms that ultimately led to no social order, high amounts of danger, and no real progress.



The golden age of monogamy was also the golden age of human progress. It would be unwise to celebrate the end of this age as a win for progress when it was really the exact opposite.


When was "The golden age of monogamy"?


Maybe 1500 to 1960 or so?

I googled The golden age of monogamy.

Nothing comes up. It seems you coined that phrase - that's OK. Originality is good.
But now it becomes your burden to provide evidence for it.

Several articles don't support the notion that there was a golden age of monogamy in the 1500's or the 1800's:

http://fascinatinghistory.blogspot.com...
Prostitution of course was also very popular and as men have always been prepared to pay extra for having a virgin, the Elizabethans came up with a liquid, which once applied would draw the muscles / tissue very closely together and stiffen them up, thus giving the 'client' the impression of virginity. Henry VIII had closed all brothels in 1546 but his son Edward VI later had them re-opened. The South Bank was the most popular place for brothels, but they could also be found in poverty-stricken areas of Westminster and Shoreditch - even to this day parts of Shoreditch carry on this legacy.

http://www.independent.co.uk...
In Britain the ideal of the middle-class wife, safely installed with her family in a bourgeois home, was the universal ideal. But the repression of natural urges led to a dark underground world of debauchery and vice. As the purity of the wifely figure was promoted (once-a-month sex was generally considered enough), prostitution became more widespread than ever before. In 1839, in London, a city of two million inhabitants, there were estimated to be around 80,000 prostitutes.


The ball is in your court.



.
.
.
.


Just rereading this before I posted and realized it was two different people making claims.

ToddsAmerica - Please show when and what you believe the golden age of monogamy was.
jimtimmy8 - Please provide evidence for why you believe that the 16th and 19th Centuries were part of a golden age of monogamy.

I'm referring to cultural attitudes towards monogamy. And the "golden age" I refer to is relatively speaking. It doesn't mean that men never cheated. It means that, on average, they may have been less likely too. Or, at the very least, cultural attitudes towards sex were much more monogamous and conservative.

Sadly, it's difficult to find data on this so confirming or debunking this would be difficult.
Philocat
Posts: 728
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8/16/2015 8:17:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say, that is mainly an argument against polygamy - there is nothing wrong with hookup culture if eventually you settle downin a monagpmous marriage.
jimtimmy8
Posts: 383
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8/16/2015 8:58:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/15/2015 10:05:59 PM, breaxxbaxx wrote:
I think one big thing to note, that you missed, on the liberal perspective of "hook-up culture" would be the big emphasis on consent and sexual health. Now, this is particularly emphasized in feminist circles, but making sure that while you can make your own choices in regards to how you'd like to express your sexuality, you should also keep yourself educated as well. The number one rule being, make sure you and the person you are with are comfortable and safe in what you are doing.

Long story short, just because there is more of an encouragement for a bit of freedom when it comes to sex, that doesn't mean that you don't also carry responsibilities in that freedom.

Funny how unrealistic feminists are about sex.
ecco
Posts: 180
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8/16/2015 2:20:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/16/2015 7:34:53 AM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
At 8/16/2015 2:54:47 AM, ecco wrote:


I googled The golden age of monogamy.

Nothing comes up. It seems you coined that phrase - that's OK. Originality is good.
But now it becomes your burden to provide evidence for it.

Several articles don't support the notion that there was a golden age of monogamy in the 1500's or the 1800's:

http://fascinatinghistory.blogspot.com...
Prostitution of course was also very popular and as men have always been prepared to pay extra for having a virgin, the Elizabethans came up with a liquid, which once applied would draw the muscles / tissue very closely together and stiffen them up, thus giving the 'client' the impression of virginity. Henry VIII had closed all brothels in 1546 but his son Edward VI later had them re-opened. The South Bank was the most popular place for brothels, but they could also be found in poverty-stricken areas of Westminster and Shoreditch - even to this day parts of Shoreditch carry on this legacy.

http://www.independent.co.uk...
In Britain the ideal of the middle-class wife, safely installed with her family in a bourgeois home, was the universal ideal. But the repression of natural urges led to a dark underground world of debauchery and vice. As the purity of the wifely figure was promoted (once-a-month sex was generally considered enough), prostitution became more widespread than ever before. In 1839, in London, a city of two million inhabitants, there were estimated to be around 80,000 prostitutes.


The ball is in your court.



jimtimmy8 - Please provide evidence for why you believe that the 16th and 19th Centuries were part of a golden age of monogamy.



I'm referring to cultural attitudes towards monogamy. And the "golden age" I refer to is relatively speaking. It doesn't mean that men never cheated. It means that, on average, they may have been less likely too. Or, at the very least, cultural attitudes towards sex were much more monogamous and conservative.

Sadly, it's difficult to find data on this so confirming or debunking this would be difficult.

In other words, it's your opinion which is based on nothing. OK
Think
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,389
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8/16/2015 3:24:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
We have a natural instinct to reproduce. This not only makes people want sex, it also makes them want to have children and pass their genes on to the next generation.
Comprende? If you don't pass your genes on to the next generation, you don't matter.
This makes a man want to own a female who only does it with him, this proves that the child is his offspring.
This arrangement is good for a woman because her man has an instinct to take care of her and her children. If he knows her children are his offspring, this creates an emotional bond between father and child that is analogous to the bond between mother and child.
A woman's instincts tell her to mate with an alpha male . Thing is, an Alpha Male's instincts would prefer to have all the wives he can get. This creates a conflict between him and the men who can't get a female. They will want to get their seed into the Alpha Males female.

What liberals want is a woman must be free to choose who she will share her body with. They are not gonna choose a loser who needs her to mate with him, they will choose the alpha male, even if she has to compete with other women to get this guy.

In parts of India the parents of boys get together with the parents of a girl and arrange a marriage. India's population is exploding while some western countries have negative population growth.
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,389
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8/19/2015 3:29:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The "Hookup Culture" is bad for women because it makes it easy for attractive men to get really casual about casual sex. So when her age gets close to 30, the good men her age are allready married. what is left for are players and losers. When she goes on tinder she gets to see a wide variety of available men. This is not neccesarily a good thing because she can compare the losers to the desirable men. After doing this she realizes just how bad the losers are when she compares them to the players and sees what all a player has to offer.
They are available because the girls don't want them or they don't want to be with just 1 woman. They like to try plenty of women and they compete to see who can get the hottest chick. Using the internet to meet women a player can sleep with 100 women a year.
These women who are dating these guys are sleeping with 100 men every year too. They are not going to talk about it because people will think they are a slut.
jimtimmy8
Posts: 383
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8/19/2015 6:01:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/16/2015 3:24:21 PM, xus00HAY wrote:
We have a natural instinct to reproduce. This not only makes people want sex, it also makes them want to have children and pass their genes on to the next generation.
Comprende? If you don't pass your genes on to the next generation, you don't matter.
This makes a man want to own a female who only does it with him, this proves that the child is his offspring.
This arrangement is good for a woman because her man has an instinct to take care of her and her children. If he knows her children are his offspring, this creates an emotional bond between father and child that is analogous to the bond between mother and child.
A woman's instincts tell her to mate with an alpha male . Thing is, an Alpha Male's instincts would prefer to have all the wives he can get. This creates a conflict between him and the men who can't get a female. They will want to get their seed into the Alpha Males female.

What liberals want is a woman must be free to choose who she will share her body with. They are not gonna choose a loser who needs her to mate with him, they will choose the alpha male, even if she has to compete with other women to get this guy.

In parts of India the parents of boys get together with the parents of a girl and arrange a marriage. India's population is exploding while some western countries have negative population growth.

This is the most realistic take I've seen on this thread
jimtimmy8
Posts: 383
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8/19/2015 6:02:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/16/2015 2:20:52 PM, ecco wrote:
At 8/16/2015 7:34:53 AM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
At 8/16/2015 2:54:47 AM, ecco wrote:


I googled The golden age of monogamy.

Nothing comes up. It seems you coined that phrase - that's OK. Originality is good.
But now it becomes your burden to provide evidence for it.

Several articles don't support the notion that there was a golden age of monogamy in the 1500's or the 1800's:

http://fascinatinghistory.blogspot.com...
Prostitution of course was also very popular and as men have always been prepared to pay extra for having a virgin, the Elizabethans came up with a liquid, which once applied would draw the muscles / tissue very closely together and stiffen them up, thus giving the 'client' the impression of virginity. Henry VIII had closed all brothels in 1546 but his son Edward VI later had them re-opened. The South Bank was the most popular place for brothels, but they could also be found in poverty-stricken areas of Westminster and Shoreditch - even to this day parts of Shoreditch carry on this legacy.

http://www.independent.co.uk...
In Britain the ideal of the middle-class wife, safely installed with her family in a bourgeois home, was the universal ideal. But the repression of natural urges led to a dark underground world of debauchery and vice. As the purity of the wifely figure was promoted (once-a-month sex was generally considered enough), prostitution became more widespread than ever before. In 1839, in London, a city of two million inhabitants, there were estimated to be around 80,000 prostitutes.


The ball is in your court.



jimtimmy8 - Please provide evidence for why you believe that the 16th and 19th Centuries were part of a golden age of monogamy.



I'm referring to cultural attitudes towards monogamy. And the "golden age" I refer to is relatively speaking. It doesn't mean that men never cheated. It means that, on average, they may have been less likely too. Or, at the very least, cultural attitudes towards sex were much more monogamous and conservative.

Sadly, it's difficult to find data on this so confirming or debunking this would be difficult.

In other words, it's your opinion which is based on nothing. OK

No. It's based on perception.... which is based on reading and study. I'd love some hard data but don't know where to find or what that data would even look like or consist of...
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,389
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8/20/2015 2:34:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If there was a golden age of monagamy, it existed when people lived in small villages near the land they worked. Everybody knew everybody else, so adultery could not be kept secret.
A city as large as London offers it's residents anonymity.
If a faithful wife had a husband who would rent a tart now and then, she could wind up with an STD that he brought home.