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We need to end the fed

16kadams
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8/29/2015 11:24:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Wylted was right. I have been reading libertarian economic and political theory for days now, and am now a libertarian.

The Federal Reserve causes inflation. Inflation is a hidden tax--it is hidden robbery. The Fed has arisen from "progressive" bankers who wish to devalue the dollar to support their political agendas. Not only this, but I think there is a case to be made that the Rothschild family is still secretly powerful and runs the government. This video simplifies that evidence, but there is more than just this (https://www.youtube.com...).

The Fed messes with interest rates and inflation which causes the business cycle. If we are serious in trying to end the boom-and-bust cycle, we need to end the Fed.

I think that Rothbard makes the best case against central banking here: http://archive.lewrockwell.com...

JMK and I have been researching this together, sharing links and data. I mean, it is hard for me to say this, but we were fvcking wrong. The Fed is really nefarious and it disgusts me that I supported it.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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8/29/2015 11:30:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I would love to say that we were trolling: that this is all a hoax promulgated by the so-called "liberal media," and that I can hold my head high and continue to condone the actions of this Federal Reserve. But enough is enough, and I can no longer endorse and pay lip service to this treacherous, repugnant institution.

Ron Paul and Peter Schiff was right; I made fun of that video, too, and I called Schiff a charlatan, a crook, a goldbug, and a naive -- but he was right, and it's only about time until the U.S. dollar comes crashing down.

How do I know this? Well, I've seen the New York Fed's gold reserves. They're hiding $12.4 trillion in gold in their basement, about half of the amount of excess reserves -- read: printed money -- they're hiding in vaults. When countries come to claim their gold reserves, we'll have nothing left to back that flimsy paper currency we all know and love: the dollar will plummet, we'll have a balance-of-payments crisis, prices will rocket, and you'll require a wheelbarrow of cash to purchase a loaf of bread.

#EndtheFed
#SoundMoneyforAmerica
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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8/29/2015 11:33:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
And, btw, we're in the middle of an equity bubble, a housing bubble, a junk-bond bubble, a tech bubble, and are experiencing the preliminary steps of a bursting commodity bubble.

Buy gold and silver, ladies and gents.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
ErenBalkir
Posts: 157
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8/30/2015 12:07:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/29/2015 11:30:41 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
I would love to say that we were trolling: that this is all a hoax promulgated by the so-called "liberal media," and that I can hold my head high and continue to condone the actions of this Federal Reserve. But enough is enough, and I can no longer endorse and pay lip service to this treacherous, repugnant institution.

Ron Paul and Peter Schiff was right; I made fun of that video, too, and I called Schiff a charlatan, a crook, a goldbug, and a naive -- but he was right, and it's only about time until the U.S. dollar comes crashing down.

How do I know this? Well, I've seen the New York Fed's gold reserves. They're hiding $12.4 trillion in gold in their basement, about half of the amount of excess reserves -- read: printed money -- they're hiding in vaults. When countries come to claim their gold reserves, we'll have nothing left to back that flimsy paper currency we all know and love: the dollar will plummet, we'll have a balance-of-payments crisis, prices will rocket, and you'll require a wheelbarrow of cash to purchase a loaf of bread.

#EndtheFed
#SoundMoneyforAmerica

Can you explain to me (in basic economics) how interests rates would be set, the money supply controlled (bearing in mind 97% of money is electronic and mostly created by private banks not the central bank) and how there could be stimulus in recessions without the Fed. I am undecided.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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8/30/2015 12:19:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 12:07:03 AM, ErenBalkir wrote:
Can you explain to me (in basic economics) how interests rates would be set, the money supply controlled (bearing in mind 97% of money is electronic and mostly created by private banks not the central bank) and how there could be stimulus in recessions without the Fed. I am undecided.

Sure.

No one really suggested that money is physically *created* by the central bank, though it does create M0, or the monetary base. Usually, each dollar of base money injected into the economy results in a larger than $1 increase in the money supply (M1, M2, etc.) and each dollar of base money removed results in a larger than $1 decrease in the money supply. Right now, that multiplier is slightly below 1 -- about .7 -- because of banks holding excess reserves and households holding cash.

Without the Fed, interest rates would merely be set by market forces. We wouldn't have banks holding over $2 trillion in excess reserves, which could spawn a future inflation timebomb, or improperly set, artificially suppressed interest rates that merely induce malinvestment, inflation, and financial imbalances (e.g., bubbles).

"Stimulus" wouldn't be a concern, because the only reason anyone supports stimulus is to create a sugar-high economy to compensate for and mask the weak fundamentals, all of which the Fed created with overly expansionary policy. With a free-market system, we would remove the shackles of government artificially propping up wages and the stock market and allow markets to clear -- wages and prices would adjust downward and we'd find ourselves at the old trend line, if only we pursued reforms that made labor markets more flexible.
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komododragon8
Posts: 405
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8/30/2015 12:40:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/29/2015 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Wylted was right. I have been reading libertarian economic and political theory for days now, and am now a libertarian.

The Federal Reserve causes inflation. Inflation is a hidden tax--it is hidden robbery. The Fed has arisen from "progressive" bankers who wish to devalue the dollar to support their political agendas. Not only this, but I think there is a case to be made that the Rothschild family is still secretly powerful and runs the government. This video simplifies that evidence, but there is more than just this (https://www.youtube.com...).

The Fed messes with interest rates and inflation which causes the business cycle. If we are serious in trying to end the boom-and-bust cycle, we need to end the Fed.

I think that Rothbard makes the best case against central banking here: http://archive.lewrockwell.com...

JMK and I have been researching this together, sharing links and data. I mean, it is hard for me to say this, but we were fvcking wrong. The Fed is really nefarious and it disgusts me that I supported it.

I have a question, to what extant would the federal government be removed. Are you talking about a anachro or laissez faire sytem of capitalism?
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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8/30/2015 12:45:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 12:40:48 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
I have a question, to what extant would the federal government be removed. Are you talking about a anachro or laissez faire sytem of capitalism?

We're talking about the Federal Reserve, not the federal government -- though we'd end that, too. We're reformed anarcho capitalists.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
komododragon8
Posts: 405
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8/30/2015 12:48:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 12:45:52 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:40:48 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
I have a question, to what extant would the federal government be removed. Are you talking about a anachro or laissez faire sytem of capitalism?

We're talking about the Federal Reserve, not the federal government -- though we'd end that, too. We're reformed anarcho capitalists.

Do you have any economic models or historical trends to support your ideas. Also how would your economy prevent unethical business practises such as slavery.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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8/30/2015 12:51:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 12:48:30 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:45:52 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:40:48 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
I have a question, to what extant would the federal government be removed. Are you talking about a anachro or laissez faire sytem of capitalism?

We're talking about the Federal Reserve, not the federal government -- though we'd end that, too. We're reformed anarcho capitalists.

Do you have any economic models or historical trends to support your ideas.

Sure, we have several: a basic Macro 101 Keynesian Cross (Bastard Keynesianism, as it was called) supports our thesis. And the Fed caused both the Depression and the Great Recession, and it's the driving force behind the next big crash.

Also how would your economy prevent unethical business practises such as slavery.

Lol, the idea that we need a government to point guns at people to prevent injustices, like slavery, is preposterous. The argument is self-defeating:

P1: People are bad.
P2: We need a few people to point guns at the majority to force them to do stuff .
C1: ???

The best way to prevent corruption is with a free-market system.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,246
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8/30/2015 12:58:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/29/2015 11:33:06 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
And, btw, we're in the middle of an equity bubble, a housing bubble, a junk-bond bubble, a tech bubble, and are experiencing the preliminary steps of a bursting commodity bubble.

Buy gold and silver, ladies and gents.

If this is legit we are in serious trouble. You 2 guys are freaks when it comes to researching this stuff.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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8/30/2015 1:00:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 12:58:30 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/29/2015 11:33:06 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
And, btw, we're in the middle of an equity bubble, a housing bubble, a junk-bond bubble, a tech bubble, and are experiencing the preliminary steps of a bursting commodity bubble.

Buy gold and silver, ladies and gents.

If this is legit we are in serious trouble. You 2 guys are freaks when it comes to researching this stuff.

I'm afraid the day of reckoning is upon us...

I expect the first bubble to pop a year from now. Then, like a set of dominos, the next will pop... then the next... then the next... etc.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,246
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8/30/2015 1:09:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:00:49 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:58:30 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/29/2015 11:33:06 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
And, btw, we're in the middle of an equity bubble, a housing bubble, a junk-bond bubble, a tech bubble, and are experiencing the preliminary steps of a bursting commodity bubble.

Buy gold and silver, ladies and gents.

If this is legit we are in serious trouble. You 2 guys are freaks when it comes to researching this stuff.

I'm afraid the day of reckoning is upon us...

I expect the first bubble to pop a year from now. Then, like a set of dominos, the next will pop... then the next... then the next... etc.

Well thanks for the heads up. I liked the video 16k posted.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
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8/30/2015 1:10:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:09:35 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:00:49 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:58:30 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/29/2015 11:33:06 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
And, btw, we're in the middle of an equity bubble, a housing bubble, a junk-bond bubble, a tech bubble, and are experiencing the preliminary steps of a bursting commodity bubble.

Buy gold and silver, ladies and gents.

If this is legit we are in serious trouble. You 2 guys are freaks when it comes to researching this stuff.

I'm afraid the day of reckoning is upon us...

I expect the first bubble to pop a year from now. Then, like a set of dominos, the next will pop... then the next... then the next... etc.

Well thanks for the heads up. I liked the video 16k posted.

Yeah, it's pretty interesting. I'm watching it again -- it's almost become like a Bible to me, tbh.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,246
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8/30/2015 1:12:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:10:50 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:09:35 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:00:49 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:58:30 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/29/2015 11:33:06 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
And, btw, we're in the middle of an equity bubble, a housing bubble, a junk-bond bubble, a tech bubble, and are experiencing the preliminary steps of a bursting commodity bubble.

Buy gold and silver, ladies and gents.

If this is legit we are in serious trouble. You 2 guys are freaks when it comes to researching this stuff.

I'm afraid the day of reckoning is upon us...

I expect the first bubble to pop a year from now. Then, like a set of dominos, the next will pop... then the next... then the next... etc.

Well thanks for the heads up. I liked the video 16k posted.

Yeah, it's pretty interesting. I'm watching it again -- it's almost become like a Bible to me, tbh.

I actually had no idea the fed was a private bank. It all makes sense now. Nobody is looking out for our interests, and there is zero accountability.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
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8/30/2015 1:13:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:12:14 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:10:50 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:09:35 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:00:49 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:58:30 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/29/2015 11:33:06 PM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
And, btw, we're in the middle of an equity bubble, a housing bubble, a junk-bond bubble, a tech bubble, and are experiencing the preliminary steps of a bursting commodity bubble.

Buy gold and silver, ladies and gents.

If this is legit we are in serious trouble. You 2 guys are freaks when it comes to researching this stuff.

I'm afraid the day of reckoning is upon us...

I expect the first bubble to pop a year from now. Then, like a set of dominos, the next will pop... then the next... then the next... etc.

Well thanks for the heads up. I liked the video 16k posted.

Yeah, it's pretty interesting. I'm watching it again -- it's almost become like a Bible to me, tbh.

I actually had no idea the fed was a private bank. It all makes sense now. Nobody is looking out for our interests, and there is zero accountability.

Agreed.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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8/30/2015 1:17:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 12:40:48 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/29/2015 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
Wylted was right. I have been reading libertarian economic and political theory for days now, and am now a libertarian.

The Federal Reserve causes inflation. Inflation is a hidden tax--it is hidden robbery. The Fed has arisen from "progressive" bankers who wish to devalue the dollar to support their political agendas. Not only this, but I think there is a case to be made that the Rothschild family is still secretly powerful and runs the government. This video simplifies that evidence, but there is more than just this (https://www.youtube.com...).

The Fed messes with interest rates and inflation which causes the business cycle. If we are serious in trying to end the boom-and-bust cycle, we need to end the Fed.

I think that Rothbard makes the best case against central banking here: http://archive.lewrockwell.com...

JMK and I have been researching this together, sharing links and data. I mean, it is hard for me to say this, but we were fvcking wrong. The Fed is really nefarious and it disgusts me that I supported it.

I have a question, to what extant would the federal government be removed. Are you talking about a anachro or laissez faire sytem of capitalism?

Anarcho capitalism.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
komododragon8
Posts: 405
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8/30/2015 1:19:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 12:51:37 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:48:30 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:45:52 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:40:48 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
I have a question, to what extant would the federal government be removed. Are you talking about a anachro or laissez faire sytem of capitalism?

We're talking about the Federal Reserve, not the federal government -- though we'd end that, too. We're reformed anarcho capitalists.

Do you have any economic models or historical trends to support your ideas.

Sure, we have several: a basic Macro 101 Keynesian Cross (Bastard Keynesianism, as it was called) supports our thesis. And the Fed caused both the Depression and the Great Recession, and it's the driving force behind the next big crash.

Also how would your economy prevent unethical business practises such as slavery.

Lol, the idea that we need a government to point guns at people to prevent injustices, like slavery, is preposterous. The argument is self-defeating:

P1: People are bad.
P2: We need a few people to point guns at the majority to force them to do stuff .
C1: ???

The best way to prevent corruption is with a free-market system.

Your answer to the second part of my question makes no sense. We have huge historical records of slavery and brutality carried out by individuals. Even now there are black markets where you can buy and sell people. What systems would be in place in anachro capitalism to stop people from enslaving people?
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
Posts: 12,398
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8/30/2015 1:22:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:19:29 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:51:37 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:48:30 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:45:52 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:40:48 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
I have a question, to what extant would the federal government be removed. Are you talking about a anachro or laissez faire sytem of capitalism?

We're talking about the Federal Reserve, not the federal government -- though we'd end that, too. We're reformed anarcho capitalists.

Do you have any economic models or historical trends to support your ideas.

Sure, we have several: a basic Macro 101 Keynesian Cross (Bastard Keynesianism, as it was called) supports our thesis. And the Fed caused both the Depression and the Great Recession, and it's the driving force behind the next big crash.

Also how would your economy prevent unethical business practises such as slavery.

Lol, the idea that we need a government to point guns at people to prevent injustices, like slavery, is preposterous. The argument is self-defeating:

P1: People are bad.
P2: We need a few people to point guns at the majority to force them to do stuff .
C1: ???

The best way to prevent corruption is with a free-market system.

Your answer to the second part of my question makes no sense. We have huge historical records of slavery and brutality carried out by individuals. Even now there are black markets where you can buy and sell people. What systems would be in place in anachro capitalism to stop people from enslaving people?

Those systems corresponded with tyrannical governments that codified and enforced those barbaric standards. Hell, the South fought a war to attempt to maintain slavery. Indentured servant programs were government-run, and that's the necessary byproduct of any tyrannical regime with a monopoly on force -- slavery, because I don't own myself or the product of my labor.

I wouldn't put in any system, but people acting voluntarily might choose to do so. In a genuine free market, as opposed to a monopoly -- and we've never had this kind of system -- there would be genuine sanctions and public outcry should a system on par with slavery ensue, though it wouldn't.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,246
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8/30/2015 1:26:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:22:36 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

I wouldn't put in any system, but people acting voluntarily might choose to do so. In a genuine free market, as opposed to a monopoly -- and we've never had this kind of system -- there would be genuine sanctions and public outcry should a system on par with slavery ensue, though it wouldn't.

Yah, the Black Codes surely did not come from the free market. That was purely set in motion with the force of the minority elite authority.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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8/30/2015 1:27:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:26:02 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:22:36 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:

I wouldn't put in any system, but people acting voluntarily might choose to do so. In a genuine free market, as opposed to a monopoly -- and we've never had this kind of system -- there would be genuine sanctions and public outcry should a system on par with slavery ensue, though it wouldn't.

Yah, the Black Codes surely did not come from the free market. That was purely set in motion with the force of the minority elite authority.

^ This.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah
komododragon8
Posts: 405
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8/30/2015 1:47:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:22:36 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:19:29 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:51:37 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:48:30 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:45:52 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:40:48 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
I have a question, to what extant would the federal government be removed. Are you talking about a anachro or laissez faire sytem of capitalism?

We're talking about the Federal Reserve, not the federal government -- though we'd end that, too. We're reformed anarcho capitalists.

Do you have any economic models or historical trends to support your ideas.

Sure, we have several: a basic Macro 101 Keynesian Cross (Bastard Keynesianism, as it was called) supports our thesis. And the Fed caused both the Depression and the Great Recession, and it's the driving force behind the next big crash.

Also how would your economy prevent unethical business practises such as slavery.

Lol, the idea that we need a government to point guns at people to prevent injustices, like slavery, is preposterous. The argument is self-defeating:

P1: People are bad.
P2: We need a few people to point guns at the majority to force them to do stuff .
C1: ???

The best way to prevent corruption is with a free-market system.

Your answer to the second part of my question makes no sense. We have huge historical records of slavery and brutality carried out by individuals. Even now there are black markets where you can buy and sell people. What systems would be in place in anachro capitalism to stop people from enslaving people?

Those systems corresponded with tyrannical governments that codified and enforced those barbaric standards. Hell, the South fought a war to attempt to maintain slavery. Indentured servant programs were government-run, and that's the necessary byproduct of any tyrannical regime with a monopoly on force -- slavery, because I don't own myself or the product of my labor.

I wouldn't put in any system, but people acting voluntarily might choose to do so. In a genuine free market, as opposed to a monopoly -- and we've never had this kind of system -- there would be genuine sanctions and public outcry should a system on par with slavery ensue, though it wouldn't.

It was also governments which stopped slavery based regimes. Unfortunatly in anachro capitalism there is no government. Private enterprises would and do start up slavery. In fact most modern day slavery is conducted by private enterprises. This alone is proof that slavery would continue in anachro capitalism but in that situation it would get much worse. Slavery for one thing is very profitable meaning organizations which practice it will have higher chances of succes than their free counterparts. Ultimately with the use of mercenaries these organizations could protect themselves from any sort of opposing force. And thats only if they get caught, most could easily hide the way they produce products and because these products would be cheaper (they dont have to pay as much labour costs) they would recieve more customers.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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8/30/2015 1:54:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:47:03 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
It was also governments which stopped slavery based regimes.

But without the government, those regimes -- and all the problems which preceded and followed them -- never would have existed. So by supporting the existence of government, you're essentially saying that slavery is fine insofar as we address it with a lag. I don't accept that trade-off especially when, once again, putting a few people in charge because "people are bad" is unbelievably stupid.

Unfortunatly in anachro capitalism there is no government. Private enterprises would and do start up slavery.

This is completely false. It's the government that enables and creates monopolies, and allows certain corporations special favors that actively suppress competition. In a genuine free-market economy, "slavery" could not and would not exist because businesses practicing it would go out of business.

In fact most modern day slavery is conducted by private enterprises.

A) Today we don't have a free market.

B) This is just complete hogwash. The only slavery practiced today is that the government has a higher claim to my property than I do, and can force me to do certain things, lest they point a gun in my direction and threaten to lock me up in a cage .

This alone is proof that slavery would continue in anachro capitalism but in that situation it would get much worse.

Proof? You've provided no such thing: all you've given me is circular reasoning. See above for the justification to your last point.

Slavery for one thing is very profitable meaning organizations which practice it will have higher chances of succes than their free counterparts.

Totally false: they would go *out of business* in a free-market economy. Who in the world would purchase from a business practicing slavery? Moreover, who in the world would be dumb enough to actually *voluntarily* work for a business that enslaves them? That's utterly lunacy when they could just go work for someone else: supply and demand applies to labor markets, as well.

Ultimately with the use of mercenaries these organizations could protect themselves from any sort of opposing force.

You think businesses would literally hire a private mercenary army? I mean, what good would that really do? No one is advocating violence. It isn't violent to choose to spend your money elsewhere, which is ultimately what would occur in a free market.

And thats only if they get caught, most could easily hide the way they produce products and because these products would be cheaper (they dont have to pay as much labour costs) they would recieve more customers.

No, that's not true, because again in a genuine free-market economy the responsibility is on consumers to reach out to prospective employers, to research, and to converse with one another in order to make decisions in the marketplace. A business acting suspiciously would necessarily be shunned in favor of one more friendly to labor.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

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16kadams
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8/30/2015 1:54:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:19:29 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:51:37 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:48:30 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:45:52 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:40:48 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
I have a question, to what extant would the federal government be removed. Are you talking about a anachro or laissez faire sytem of capitalism?

We're talking about the Federal Reserve, not the federal government -- though we'd end that, too. We're reformed anarcho capitalists.

Do you have any economic models or historical trends to support your ideas.

Sure, we have several: a basic Macro 101 Keynesian Cross (Bastard Keynesianism, as it was called) supports our thesis. And the Fed caused both the Depression and the Great Recession, and it's the driving force behind the next big crash.

Also how would your economy prevent unethical business practises such as slavery.

Lol, the idea that we need a government to point guns at people to prevent injustices, like slavery, is preposterous. The argument is self-defeating:

P1: People are bad.
P2: We need a few people to point guns at the majority to force them to do stuff .
C1: ???

The best way to prevent corruption is with a free-market system.

Your answer to the second part of my question makes no sense. We have huge historical records of slavery and brutality carried out by individuals. Even now there are black markets where you can buy and sell people. What systems would be in place in anachro capitalism to stop people from enslaving people?

Slavery is inherently capitalistic because it is not a mutual transaction. Capitalism means that people can do whatever they want as long as it is (1) mutually beneficial and (2) both parties agree to it. It is actually during the industrial revolution, when capitalism started truly taking some form, when slavery ended.

Also, you could argue that market forces would eliminate slavery. Extractive political and economic institutions, like slavery, reduce future economic output as you have an entire class of people who are forced into servitude. Essentially, it serves as an opportunity cost for the economy as a whole because a large portion of the economy working as slaves would likely be more productive if they had wage incentives, and the economy as a whole would do better (even if the plantation owners benefited). So, in anarcho capitalism, the areas without slavery (which would be likely because we oppose it now) would do better than those with it, and, as a result, slavery would be disadvantageous and disappear over time. In the South, slavery was probably a net-negative to their economy and would have been abolished in the 1890s (though the North > South, I am not being a crazy confederate fanboy--CSA got rekt).
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komododragon8
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8/30/2015 1:58:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:54:12 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:47:03 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
It was also governments which stopped slavery based regimes.

But without the government, those regimes -- and all the problems which preceded and followed them -- never would have existed. So by supporting the existence of government, you're essentially saying that slavery is fine insofar as we address it with a lag. I don't accept that trade-off especially when, once again, putting a few people in charge because "people are bad" is unbelievably stupid.

Unfortunatly in anachro capitalism there is no government. Private enterprises would and do start up slavery.

This is completely false. It's the government that enables and creates monopolies, and allows certain corporations special favors that actively suppress competition. In a genuine free-market economy, "slavery" could not and would not exist because businesses practicing it would go out of business.

In fact most modern day slavery is conducted by private enterprises.

A) Today we don't have a free market.

B) This is just complete hogwash. The only slavery practiced today is that the government has a higher claim to my property than I do, and can force me to do certain things, lest they point a gun in my direction and threaten to lock me up in a cage .

This alone is proof that slavery would continue in anachro capitalism but in that situation it would get much worse.

Proof? You've provided no such thing: all you've given me is circular reasoning. See above for the justification to your last point.

Slavery for one thing is very profitable meaning organizations which practice it will have higher chances of succes than their free counterparts.

Totally false: they would go *out of business* in a free-market economy. Who in the world would purchase from a business practicing slavery? Moreover, who in the world would be dumb enough to actually *voluntarily* work for a business that enslaves them? That's utterly lunacy when they could just go work for someone else: supply and demand applies to labor markets, as well.

Ultimately with the use of mercenaries these organizations could protect themselves from any sort of opposing force.

You think businesses would literally hire a private mercenary army? I mean, what good would that really do? No one is advocating violence. It isn't violent to choose to spend your money elsewhere, which is ultimately what would occur in a free market.

And thats only if they get caught, most could easily hide the way they produce products and because these products would be cheaper (they dont have to pay as much labour costs) they would recieve more customers.

No, that's not true, because again in a genuine free-market economy the responsibility is on consumers to reach out to prospective employers, to research, and to converse with one another in order to make decisions in the marketplace. A business acting suspiciously would necessarily be shunned in favor of one more friendly to labor.

Are you a troll?
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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8/30/2015 1:59:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:58:35 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
Are you a troll?

That's extremely ironic. You asked whether I'm a troll, whilst at the same time failing to respond to a single point I've made.
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komododragon8
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8/30/2015 2:11:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:59:48 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:58:35 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
Are you a troll?

That's extremely ironic. You asked whether I'm a troll, whilst at the same time failing to respond to a single point I've made.

Just making sure as you completely ignore the current human trafficking black market (you state "The only slavery practiced today is that the government has a higher claim to my property than I do, and can force me to do certain things, lest they point a gun in my direction and threaten to lock me up in a cage") which by the way is one of the largest illegal markets in the world.

You also state "Moreover, who in the world would be dumb enough to actually *voluntarily* work for a business that enslaves them?" By saying this you dont seem to understang the fact that people dont volunteer for slavery, they are forced into it.

Lastly how can a consumer reach out and research a business if the business doesnt publish their records. If the business can provide a product at a lower cost than it can compete in the market and many people will purchase its product. The fact that you ignore modern day slavery and dont seem to know how it works makes me wonder if you are taking this seriously.
komododragon8
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8/30/2015 2:14:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 1:54:38 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:19:29 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:51:37 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:48:30 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:45:52 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:40:48 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
I have a question, to what extant would the federal government be removed. Are you talking about a anachro or laissez faire sytem of capitalism?

We're talking about the Federal Reserve, not the federal government -- though we'd end that, too. We're reformed anarcho capitalists.

Do you have any economic models or historical trends to support your ideas.

Sure, we have several: a basic Macro 101 Keynesian Cross (Bastard Keynesianism, as it was called) supports our thesis. And the Fed caused both the Depression and the Great Recession, and it's the driving force behind the next big crash.

Also how would your economy prevent unethical business practises such as slavery.

Lol, the idea that we need a government to point guns at people to prevent injustices, like slavery, is preposterous. The argument is self-defeating:

P1: People are bad.
P2: We need a few people to point guns at the majority to force them to do stuff .
C1: ???

The best way to prevent corruption is with a free-market system.

Your answer to the second part of my question makes no sense. We have huge historical records of slavery and brutality carried out by individuals. Even now there are black markets where you can buy and sell people. What systems would be in place in anachro capitalism to stop people from enslaving people?

Slavery is inherently capitalistic because it is not a mutual transaction. Capitalism means that people can do whatever they want as long as it is (1) mutually beneficial and (2) both parties agree to it. It is actually during the industrial revolution, when capitalism started truly taking some form, when slavery ended.

Also, you could argue that market forces would eliminate slavery. Extractive political and economic institutions, like slavery, reduce future economic output as you have an entire class of people who are forced into servitude. Essentially, it serves as an opportunity cost for the economy as a whole because a large portion of the economy working as slaves would likely be more productive if they had wage incentives, and the economy as a whole would do better (even if the plantation owners benefited). So, in anarcho capitalism, the areas without slavery (which would be likely because we oppose it now) would do better than those with it, and, as a result, slavery would be disadvantageous and disappear over time. In the South, slavery was probably a net-negative to their economy and would have been abolished in the 1890s (though the North > South, I am not being a crazy confederate fanboy--CSA got rekt).

And just who is going to enforce the rule that it has to be mutual. In an anachro capitalist system I can simply hire mercenaries to enslave people for me. People have done it in the past, they do it now, and I can bet that if the government were to be destroyed it would continue to happen in the future but this time with even less resistance.
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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8/30/2015 2:20:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 2:11:03 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
Just making sure as you completely ignore the current human trafficking black market (you state "The only slavery practiced today is that the government has a higher claim to my property than I do, and can force me to do certain things, lest they point a gun in my direction and threaten to lock me up in a cage") which by the way is one of the largest illegal markets in the world.

That's completely tangential to this discussion, because we're focusing *on the United States.* But, yes, human trafficking is an issue, and one that governments have been fundamentally unable to adequately address. In fact, many of these black markets are caused by government regulation like, for instance, drug cartels -- those would be *eliminated* under an anarchist system.

You also state "Moreover, who in the world would be dumb enough to actually *voluntarily* work for a business that enslaves them?" By saying this you dont seem to understang the fact that people dont volunteer for slavery, they are forced into it.

No, once again you're mixing apples with oranges. You said that *companies* would -- and do -- actively practice slavery. That point itself is categorically wrong, but the whole point I made was that it's *governments* who force people to do stuff. In an anarchist society, people can choose to whom to sell their labor. Your'e fundamentally wrong when you suggest that a business can force someone to volunteer their labor in a manner conducive to slavery.

The main point that you've dodged at least twice now is this: You're contending that, because people are bad, we need a government to reign them in. Government is composed *of people*, so you're literally installing a few people with power over the masses and affording them a monopoly on force. That only *magnifies* the problem.

Lastly how can a consumer reach out and research a business if the business doesnt publish their records.

They can certainly reach out to that business, but if the business doesn't release its records in a free-market economy, the burden is on the consumer to go elsewhere until they do, which would prompt the business *to* release its records, lest they go out of business.

If the business can provide a product at a lower cost than it can compete in the market and many people will purchase its product.

Yes, and if those prices are misaligned with fundamentals, much like a financial bubble, they'll come crashing down, but prices are determined by supply and demand. In a free-market economy, there are no cartels: those are enabled by bought-and-paid-for government regulation. If a business holds down it's labor costs in dishonest ways, people will go elsewhere. Period.

The fact that you ignore modern day slavery and dont seem to know how it works makes me wonder if you are taking this seriously.

Oh, the projection here is real. Every example you've brought up is either completely tangential to the discussion, would be almost completely eliminated in the complete absence of government, or flat-out wrong, as is your case that companies today actually *practice slavery.* You don't seem to understand what I'm actually suggesting, nor have you responded substantively to my most salient points, so the point of seriousness is as ironic as it gets.
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

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16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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8/30/2015 2:24:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/30/2015 2:14:15 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:54:38 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 8/30/2015 1:19:29 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:51:37 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:48:30 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:45:52 AM, ResponsiblyIrresponsible wrote:
At 8/30/2015 12:40:48 AM, komododragon8 wrote:
I have a question, to what extant would the federal government be removed. Are you talking about a anachro or laissez faire sytem of capitalism?

We're talking about the Federal Reserve, not the federal government -- though we'd end that, too. We're reformed anarcho capitalists.

Do you have any economic models or historical trends to support your ideas.

Sure, we have several: a basic Macro 101 Keynesian Cross (Bastard Keynesianism, as it was called) supports our thesis. And the Fed caused both the Depression and the Great Recession, and it's the driving force behind the next big crash.

Also how would your economy prevent unethical business practises such as slavery.

Lol, the idea that we need a government to point guns at people to prevent injustices, like slavery, is preposterous. The argument is self-defeating:

P1: People are bad.
P2: We need a few people to point guns at the majority to force them to do stuff .
C1: ???

The best way to prevent corruption is with a free-market system.

Your answer to the second part of my question makes no sense. We have huge historical records of slavery and brutality carried out by individuals. Even now there are black markets where you can buy and sell people. What systems would be in place in anachro capitalism to stop people from enslaving people?

Slavery is inherently capitalistic because it is not a mutual transaction. Capitalism means that people can do whatever they want as long as it is (1) mutually beneficial and (2) both parties agree to it. It is actually during the industrial revolution, when capitalism started truly taking some form, when slavery ended.

Also, you could argue that market forces would eliminate slavery. Extractive political and economic institutions, like slavery, reduce future economic output as you have an entire class of people who are forced into servitude. Essentially, it serves as an opportunity cost for the economy as a whole because a large portion of the economy working as slaves would likely be more productive if they had wage incentives, and the economy as a whole would do better (even if the plantation owners benefited). So, in anarcho capitalism, the areas without slavery (which would be likely because we oppose it now) would do better than those with it, and, as a result, slavery would be disadvantageous and disappear over time. In the South, slavery was probably a net-negative to their economy and would have been abolished in the 1890s (though the North > South, I am not being a crazy confederate fanboy--CSA got rekt).

And just who is going to enforce the rule that it has to be mutual. In an anachro capitalist system I can simply hire mercenaries to enslave people for me. People have done it in the past, they do it now, and I can bet that if the government were to be destroyed it would continue to happen in the future but this time with even less resistance.

The individual would, lol.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
ResponsiblyIrresponsible
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8/30/2015 2:24:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Okay, I'm getting bored, lol.

This was all a troll -- the Fed is love, the Fed is life.

I didn't think this would devolve into fcking human trafficking. Jesus...
~ResponsiblyIrresponsible

DDO's Economics Messiah