Total Posts:22|Showing Posts:1-22
Jump to topic:

Who's Side Do Liberals Take Here?

jimtimmy8
Posts: 383
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 5:41:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's easy to blame straight white men for all the worlds problems because small town bakeries won't bake gay cakes. But, what happens when another "oppressed" group refuses to bake the gay cakes:

https://www.youtube.com...

Thoughts on this?
robertacollier
Posts: 54
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 5:51:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Those videos are hilarious. The queers won't go after the towel head because the dirty fudge packers have a hard on for fundamentalist nut jobs. The bakers were within their right not to interact with anyone, but they practically played it wrong in today's society. They should have said they were too busy to bake a cake. Or they should just have a screwed up frozen cake they roll out for every big mouthed faggot walking in the door. Let them know that baking a cake in a timely manner is "impossible" because they are "too busy."

This does not apply to all gays, some of whom would have the good sense to go somewhere else. Gays who steal money from bakers are dirty and filthy scum.
ErenBalkir
Posts: 157
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 1:07:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 5:41:12 AM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
It's easy to blame straight white men for all the worlds problems because small town bakeries won't bake gay cakes. But, what happens when another "oppressed" group refuses to bake the gay cakes:

https://www.youtube.com...


Thoughts on this?

If you are a business you should not be allowed to discriminate and pick and choose which customers you will serve. That is what they did in segregation and so if you think it is right to refuse for gays, why not refuse to serve blacks
TBR
Posts: 9,991
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 2:44:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 5:41:12 AM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
It's easy to blame straight white men for all the worlds problems because small town bakeries won't bake gay cakes. But, what happens when another "oppressed" group refuses to bake the gay cakes:

https://www.youtube.com...


Thoughts on this?

The issues is not about what religion. The issue is about states attempts to pass laws SHEALDING business owners from lawsuits. You can be a religious jerk if you like, but you don't get license to do so from my government.
Objectivity
Posts: 1,073
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 3:47:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 2:44:05 PM, TBR wrote:
At 8/31/2015 5:41:12 AM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
It's easy to blame straight white men for all the worlds problems because small town bakeries won't bake gay cakes. But, what happens when another "oppressed" group refuses to bake the gay cakes:

https://www.youtube.com...


Thoughts on this?

The issues is not about what religion. The issue is about states attempts to pass laws SHEALDING business owners from lawsuits. You can be a religious jerk if you like, but you don't get license to do so from my government.

Consent=/=Approval. Giving everyone private property rights does not mean you approve of what they do with said property. I think you highly misunderstand the concept of common law and rights
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 4:10:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It doesn't matter what group owns the business, if the law says a business can't discriminate, then it will be punished for discriminating. As a business owner, if your personal beliefs prevent you from doing your job and conforming with the law, then you need to hire someone to do it for you. Either that, or you have to change the services/products that your business offers in order to avoid discriminating, like the bakery that stopped selling wedding cakes altogether.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 5:10:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The issues is not about what religion. The issue is about states attempts to pass laws SHEALDING business owners from lawsuits. You can be a religious jerk if you like, but you don't get license to do so from my government.

Consent=/=Approval. Giving everyone private property rights does not mean you approve of what they do with said property. I think you highly misunderstand the concept of common law and rights

I think you miss the point entirely.

The attempt to pass laws protecting "religious freedom" was the nexus for these discussions. The laws were built to give protecting to the business owners from lawsuits. It is without a doubt additional law insuring the state will protect the business. As a business owner, the bakers can refuse service. They are open to a lawsuit if they do. The added law would (has) removed the option of the individuals to sue the baker.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,285
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 5:18:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 1:07:37 PM, ErenBalkir wrote:
At 8/31/2015 5:41:12 AM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
It's easy to blame straight white men for all the worlds problems because small town bakeries won't bake gay cakes. But, what happens when another "oppressed" group refuses to bake the gay cakes:

https://www.youtube.com...


Thoughts on this?

If you are a business you should not be allowed to discriminate and pick and choose which customers you will serve. That is what they did in segregation and so if you think it is right to refuse for gays, why not refuse to serve blacks

According to the video, that's not what this is about. It's about businesses to set the level of business engagement regardless of the person.
Sarra
Posts: 288
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 5:37:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 5:41:12 AM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
It's easy to blame straight white men for all the worlds problems because small town bakeries won't bake gay cakes. But, what happens when another "oppressed" group refuses to bake the gay cakes:

https://www.youtube.com...


Thoughts on this?

The bakery argument is weak at best.
The issue becomes apparent when the topic becomes doctor offices, hospitals, and schools:
http://patch.com...
http://www.slate.com...
TBR
Posts: 9,991
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 6:31:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The bakery argument is weak at best.
The issue becomes apparent when the topic becomes doctor offices, hospitals, and schools:
http://patch.com...
http://www.slate.com...

They want to discuss the bakers to trivialize the issue. Therein lies opportunity. How so you ask. Well, if I make the very sane argument that religious based hospitals should not be PROTECTED by the state when they turn away homosexual couples (say from visitation rights) then I have to work down to the more trivial - bakers. Start the other way around, and insist that the state has no grounds to pass laws that offer cover to anyone attempting to discriminate. Then the more egregious examples (schools denying same-sex parents some status) covered.
ErenBalkir
Posts: 157
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 6:52:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 5:18:40 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/31/2015 1:07:37 PM, ErenBalkir wrote:
At 8/31/2015 5:41:12 AM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
It's easy to blame straight white men for all the worlds problems because small town bakeries won't bake gay cakes. But, what happens when another "oppressed" group refuses to bake the gay cakes:

https://www.youtube.com...


Thoughts on this?

If you are a business you should not be allowed to discriminate and pick and choose which customers you will serve. That is what they did in segregation and so if you think it is right to refuse for gays, why not refuse to serve blacks

According to the video, that's not what this is about. It's about businesses to set the level of business engagement regardless of the person.

The video was about that. It was about if a company can refuse to make a cake that a gay person wants to make. If that gay guy wants a cake with two men holding hands on it, then the cake shop must do it.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,285
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 7:51:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 6:52:25 PM, ErenBalkir wrote:
At 8/31/2015 5:18:40 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/31/2015 1:07:37 PM, ErenBalkir wrote:
At 8/31/2015 5:41:12 AM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
It's easy to blame straight white men for all the worlds problems because small town bakeries won't bake gay cakes. But, what happens when another "oppressed" group refuses to bake the gay cakes:

https://www.youtube.com...


Thoughts on this?

If you are a business you should not be allowed to discriminate and pick and choose which customers you will serve. That is what they did in segregation and so if you think it is right to refuse for gays, why not refuse to serve blacks

According to the video, that's not what this is about. It's about businesses to set the level of business engagement regardless of the person.

The video was about that. It was about if a company can refuse to make a cake that a gay person wants to make. If that gay guy wants a cake with two men holding hands on it, then the cake shop must do it.

If you watched the video, then say a baker who has a cop for a brother must by law make a cake THAT SAYS "Kill all the pigs" by Kanye West.

Again this is not an issue of who is buying cake, it's what the customer is demanding to be printed on the cake. Watch the video again.

Believe me you don't want to take away a businesses' right do decline to do a job. If you take your car to a mechanic and he says "I can't do that job," you are a damn fool for pressing that refusal through the courts instead of finding someone who will agree. You might find your car up on cinder blocks, and you'll never find the guy again.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,285
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 7:56:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 5:37:03 PM, Sarra wrote:
At 8/31/2015 5:41:12 AM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
It's easy to blame straight white men for all the worlds problems because small town bakeries won't bake gay cakes. But, what happens when another "oppressed" group refuses to bake the gay cakes:

https://www.youtube.com...


Thoughts on this?

The bakery argument is weak at best.
The issue becomes apparent when the topic becomes doctor offices, hospitals, and schools:
http://patch.com...
http://www.slate.com...

Yah, these are much stronger cases of wrongful discrimination, especially with the case of the lesbian couple, as the baby is the real victim.
ErenBalkir
Posts: 157
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 8:33:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The video was about that. It was about if a company can refuse to make a cake that a gay person wants to make. If that gay guy wants a cake with two men holding hands on it, then the cake shop must do it.

If you watched the video, then say a baker who has a cop for a brother must by law make a cake THAT SAYS "Kill all the pigs" by Kanye West.

Again this is not an issue of who is buying cake, it's what the customer is demanding to be printed on the cake. Watch the video again.

Believe me you don't want to take away a businesses' right do decline to do a job. If you take your car to a mechanic and he says "I can't do that job," you are a damn fool for pressing that refusal through the courts instead of finding someone who will agree. You might find your car up on cinder blocks, and you'll never find the guy again.

I said "If that gay guy wants a cake with two men holding hands on it, then the cake shop must do it." That is essentially the same thing as " what the customer is demanding to be printed on the cake" that you said it was about. He is asking for a two men holding hands (cake figures of the two men holding hands) and the baker says no. I am saying the baker cannot refuse to make a cake (whatever the design or writing ).

Please answer me this question (if you read it). What would stop that baker refusing to bake a cake for a heterosexual wedding with black or interracial couples on the cake itself ( you know those figures of the bride and groom) . From what your saying, he can refuse to bake it. (again not because of who is asking but what is on it)
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,285
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 8:36:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 8:33:24 PM, ErenBalkir wrote:

Please answer me this question (if you read it). What would stop that baker refusing to bake a cake for a heterosexual wedding with black or interracial couples on the cake itself ( you know those figures of the bride and groom) . From what your saying, he can refuse to bake it. (again not because of who is asking but what is on it)

What would stop him is a frivolous lawsuit which he would still likely win assuming he never agreed to contract a cake for them.

There's no law that says a cop/baker must make cakes saying "die pig"
(yet)
ErenBalkir
Posts: 157
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 8:58:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 8:36:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/31/2015 8:33:24 PM, ErenBalkir wrote:

Please answer me this question (if you read it). What would stop that baker refusing to bake a cake for a heterosexual wedding with black or interracial couples on the cake itself ( you know those figures of the bride and groom) . From what your saying, he can refuse to bake it. (again not because of who is asking but what is on it)

What would stop him is a frivolous lawsuit which he would still likely win assuming he never agreed to contract a cake for them.

There's no law that says a cop/baker must make cakes saying "die pig"
(yet)

So are you saying he should be allowed to or that he is legally allowed to? I don't know the law in america
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2015 9:16:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 7:51:59 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/31/2015 6:52:25 PM, ErenBalkir wrote:
At 8/31/2015 5:18:40 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/31/2015 1:07:37 PM, ErenBalkir wrote:
At 8/31/2015 5:41:12 AM, jimtimmy8 wrote:
It's easy to blame straight white men for all the worlds problems because small town bakeries won't bake gay cakes. But, what happens when another "oppressed" group refuses to bake the gay cakes:

https://www.youtube.com...


Thoughts on this?

If you are a business you should not be allowed to discriminate and pick and choose which customers you will serve. That is what they did in segregation and so if you think it is right to refuse for gays, why not refuse to serve blacks

According to the video, that's not what this is about. It's about businesses to set the level of business engagement regardless of the person.

The video was about that. It was about if a company can refuse to make a cake that a gay person wants to make. If that gay guy wants a cake with two men holding hands on it, then the cake shop must do it.

If you watched the video, then say a baker who has a cop for a brother must by law make a cake THAT SAYS "Kill all the pigs" by Kanye West.

Again this is not an issue of who is buying cake, it's what the customer is demanding to be printed on the cake. Watch the video again.

Believe me you don't want to take away a businesses' right do decline to do a job. If you take your car to a mechanic and he says "I can't do that job," you are a damn fool for pressing that refusal through the courts instead of finding someone who will agree. You might find your car up on cinder blocks, and you'll never find the guy again.

The content of the decoration for a cake is a different issue than the simple baking and preparation of a cake. If the decoration is the issue in the video (can't watch it from where I'm at), then it isn't discrimination if that's the case.

Regarding your mechanic analogy, that isn't at all what the anti-discrimination laws are leading to. If a business doesn't offer a service, then it just doesn't offer that service. The law can't be used to force a business to offer a service or product. But there is no fundamental difference between baking a wedding cake for a gay couple versus a straight couple. There's nothing wrong with a baker refusing to decorate a cake a certain way, because that baker wouldn't decorate the cake in that way for anyone.
Objectivity
Posts: 1,073
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/1/2015 8:03:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/31/2015 5:10:15 PM, TBR wrote:
The issues is not about what religion. The issue is about states attempts to pass laws SHEALDING business owners from lawsuits. You can be a religious jerk if you like, but you don't get license to do so from my government.

Consent=/=Approval. Giving everyone private property rights does not mean you approve of what they do with said property. I think you highly misunderstand the concept of common law and rights

I think you miss the point entirely.

The attempt to pass laws protecting "religious freedom" was the nexus for these discussions. The laws were built to give protecting to the business owners from lawsuits. It is without a doubt additional law insuring the state will protect the business. As a business owner, the bakers can refuse service. They are open to a lawsuit if they do. The added law would (has) removed the option of the individuals to sue the baker.

Exactly, I don't think I do miss the point. On what grounds should people be able to sue bakers for denying them service?
ErenBalkir
Posts: 157
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/1/2015 8:22:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 8:03:30 PM, Objectivity wrote:
At 8/31/2015 5:10:15 PM, TBR wrote:
The issues is not about what religion. The issue is about states attempts to pass laws SHEALDING business owners from lawsuits. You can be a religious jerk if you like, but you don't get license to do so from my government.

Consent=/=Approval. Giving everyone private property rights does not mean you approve of what they do with said property. I think you highly misunderstand the concept of common law and rights

I think you miss the point entirely.

The attempt to pass laws protecting "religious freedom" was the nexus for these discussions. The laws were built to give protecting to the business owners from lawsuits. It is without a doubt additional law insuring the state will protect the business. As a business owner, the bakers can refuse service. They are open to a lawsuit if they do. The added law would (has) removed the option of the individuals to sue the baker.

Exactly, I don't think I do miss the point. On what grounds should people be able to sue bakers for denying them service?

I am not sure if you mean denying service because of what they are asking for or for who they are but I will give you an example of both.
A baker doesn't want to serve a black person. That is wrong and the law should force the baker to provide a service to all equally.
A baker doesn't want to make a cake with two interracial figures holding hands on the cake because he is racist and doesn't like interracial marriage ( or even just black people again). That is wrong and the law should force the baker to make that cake.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/1/2015 8:31:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

Exactly, I don't think I do miss the point. On what grounds should people be able to sue bakers for denying them service?

14th amendment to the constitution.

Aside from, you know the Constitution and all, businesses are operated with the permission of the state. They must offer their services without prejudice.

I will state again, and more emphatically. These laws are an attempt to provide legal cover BY THE STATE to operate in conflict with the Constitutional protections given.
Objectivity
Posts: 1,073
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/1/2015 8:34:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 8:31:52 PM, TBR wrote:

Exactly, I don't think I do miss the point. On what grounds should people be able to sue bakers for denying them service?

14th amendment to the constitution.

Aside from, you know the Constitution and all, businesses are operated with the permission of the state. They must offer their services without prejudice.

I will state again, and more emphatically. These laws are an attempt to provide legal cover BY THE STATE to operate in conflict with the Constitutional protections given.

How do you get that people should get equal access and services on private property just because its protected by the government? The government protects everyone equally under the law, so the 14th amendment supports my argument, not yours, since the government ought to protect all businesses private property and 1st amendment rights regardless of their opinions. Just because something is protected by the government doesn't mean it is the government, businesses are not the government, they are allowed to discriminate, or at least ought to be able to.
Objectivity
Posts: 1,073
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/1/2015 8:35:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 8:31:52 PM, TBR wrote:

Exactly, I don't think I do miss the point. On what grounds should people be able to sue bakers for denying them service?

14th amendment to the constitution.

Aside from, you know the Constitution and all, businesses are operated with the permission of the state. They must offer their services without prejudice.

I will state again, and more emphatically. These laws are an attempt to provide legal cover BY THE STATE to operate in conflict with the Constitutional protections given.

Basically, if the government was allowed to decide who they could and couldn't protect, that would be discrimination, which is what you are seemingly advocating for