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9/11 Truth

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/8/2010 9:54:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Let this be a place to lay out all reasonable arguments for and against both sides.

I've always been vehemently apposed to conspiracy theories in my post-Christian days but I recently realized I wasn't giving them a fair enough chance. After looking into what they have to say I must confess that the whole ideal is very suspicious at the least, which is almost embarrassing for me to say.
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fnord
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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9/8/2010 9:58:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Gah. I just don't know. There are a lot of coincidences aren't there...
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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9/8/2010 10:02:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The Mob killed JFK.

but...

Mooslims attacked NY.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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9/8/2010 10:04:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 10:02:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
The Mob killed JFK.

Probably.

but...

Mooslims attacked NY.

More Probably... :P
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/8/2010 10:06:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Heres a conspiracy: my father had a meeting with his company on 9/11 on a high up level of one of the Twin Towers, but the meeting changed locations at the last minute, allowing my father to survive the incident. Spooky no?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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9/8/2010 10:07:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
yer mom did it by sitting down too hard. In a country with rising obesity, the gunmint did not want people to know about the weapons they were all slowly building
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/8/2010 10:07:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 10:06:32 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
Heres a conspiracy: my father had a meeting with his company on 9/11 on a high up level of one of the Twin Towers, but the meeting changed locations at the last minute, allowing my father to survive the incident. Spooky no?

Apparently a bunch of Jews didn't show up for work that day too. It's a Zionist conspiracy. :P
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/8/2010 10:12:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
My friend's uncle was informed not to go to work there that day too. He forgot and thought he was running late and went there anyway. He was over just a few blocks and saw it happen.
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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/8/2010 10:13:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 10:07:31 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
yer mom did it by sitting down too hard. In a country with rising obesity, the gunmint did not want people to know about the weapons they were all slowly building

LMAO!
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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9/8/2010 10:14:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 10:12:56 PM, lovelife wrote:
My friend's uncle was informed not to go to work there that day too. He forgot and thought he was running late and went there anyway. He was over just a few blocks and saw it happen.

These types of things are not evidence, just so you know.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/8/2010 10:15:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 10:12:56 PM, lovelife wrote:
My friend's uncle was informed not to go to work there that day too. He forgot and thought he was running late and went there anyway. He was over just a few blocks and saw it happen.

Yeah, my dad was on the streets when the first tower fell. Intense!
Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/8/2010 10:15:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 10:14:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/8/2010 10:12:56 PM, lovelife wrote:
My friend's uncle was informed not to go to work there that day too. He forgot and thought he was running late and went there anyway. He was over just a few blocks and saw it happen.

These types of things are not evidence, just so you know.

I'm well aware.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/8/2010 10:18:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 10:15:58 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/8/2010 10:14:42 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/8/2010 10:12:56 PM, lovelife wrote:
My friend's uncle was informed not to go to work there that day too. He forgot and thought he was running late and went there anyway. He was over just a few blocks and saw it happen.

These types of things are not evidence, just so you know.

I'm well aware.

As am I. I was just saying since it went with the last 2-3 posts.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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9/8/2010 10:19:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I myself am a little skeptical of the conspiracy, although with Bush in the White House at the time there is no one who is going to convince me that just about anything that happened during those eight years isn't worth a closer look.

We can bring up the individual points that were made and talk them over, if that really has any chance of doing any good...

1) the hole in the side of the pentagon

Claimed to be not big enough and the wrong shape, conspiracy theorists say it was a missile strike from a helicopter. The wreckage was covered with a tarp as it was being hauled away, and a local reported seeing the helicopter in question.

2) the disappearing plane in the field

Supposedly there were no bodies or plane parts or something, I forgot.

3) the physics of the building collapses

I've seen physics arguments for both sides... Honestly, if the terrorists increased to full speed before crashing, I can't see how that wouldn't have been enough. It should be a pretty easy physics calculation : weight of plane X full speed of plane considered against the support structure of the towers. If this was physically impossible, I think there would have been more backlash from physicists who MUST have run those numbers a thousand times afterward.

there was more but we can start with these I guess
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juvanya
Posts: 613
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9/8/2010 11:17:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 10:07:40 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/8/2010 10:06:32 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
Heres a conspiracy: my father had a meeting with his company on 9/11 on a high up level of one of the Twin Towers, but the meeting changed locations at the last minute, allowing my father to survive the incident. Spooky no?

Apparently a bunch of Jews didn't show up for work that day too.
False.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/8/2010 11:18:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 11:17:32 PM, juvanya wrote:
At 9/8/2010 10:07:40 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/8/2010 10:06:32 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
Heres a conspiracy: my father had a meeting with his company on 9/11 on a high up level of one of the Twin Towers, but the meeting changed locations at the last minute, allowing my father to survive the incident. Spooky no?

Apparently a bunch of Jews didn't show up for work that day too.
False.

That post wasn't even entirely serious although I remember reading something about that somewhere.
juvanya
Posts: 613
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9/8/2010 11:25:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 10:19:34 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I myself am a little skeptical of the conspiracy, although with Bush in the White House at the time there is no one who is going to convince me that just about anything that happened during those eight years isn't worth a closer look.
They cant be trusted, but they are bumbling idiots. There is simply no way they coordinated this.

1) the hole in the side of the pentagon

Claimed to be not big enough and the wrong shape, conspiracy theorists say it was a missile strike from a helicopter. The wreckage was covered with a tarp as it was being hauled away, and a local reported seeing the helicopter in question.
Absolute nonsense. This is all sketchy "evidence" stitched together. People can say anything or be programmed to say anything or accidentally fabricate memories. Eyewitnesses are highly unreliable and of course a military helicopter would be in the area.

2) the disappearing plane in the field

Supposedly there were no bodies or plane parts or something, I forgot.
Supposedly. You try smashing into a field at 500 mph and see how you end up.

3) the physics of the building collapses

I've seen physics arguments for both sides... Honestly, if the terrorists increased to full speed before crashing, I can't see how that wouldn't have been enough. It should be a pretty easy physics calculation : weight of plane X full speed of plane considered against the support structure of the towers. If this was physically impossible, I think there would have been more backlash from physicists who MUST have run those numbers a thousand times afterward.
The physics fully supports the present narrative. The plane hitting the support is irrelevant. The fires weakened (not melted) the steel supports, causing catastrophic failure.

there was more but we can start with these I guess
I would be happy to explain or refute virtually every argument made in favor of conspiracy. Its absolute nonsense. The only plausibility is that they knew the attack was coming and let it happen so they could have their wars.

Heres an article I pass around frequently:
http://spectator.org...
It says that Osama bin Laden did not do it and died in July or December 2001. The actual perpetrator is in our custody: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/8/2010 11:34:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 11:25:20 PM, juvanya wrote:
At 9/8/2010 10:19:34 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I myself am a little skeptical of the conspiracy, although with Bush in the White House at the time there is no one who is going to convince me that just about anything that happened during those eight years isn't worth a closer look.
They cant be trusted, but they are bumbling idiots. There is simply no way they coordinated this.

1) the hole in the side of the pentagon

Claimed to be not big enough and the wrong shape, conspiracy theorists say it was a missile strike from a helicopter. The wreckage was covered with a tarp as it was being hauled away, and a local reported seeing the helicopter in question.
Absolute nonsense. This is all sketchy "evidence" stitched together. People can say anything or be programmed to say anything or accidentally fabricate memories. Eyewitnesses are highly unreliable and of course a military helicopter would be in the area.

No footage of the plane hitting the building, with the Pentagon security cameras, has been released to the public. They actually confiscated all other videos taken, of which did not belong to them.

2) the disappearing plane in the field

Supposedly there were no bodies or plane parts or something, I forgot.
Supposedly. You try smashing into a field at 500 mph and see how you end up.

http://gulfnews.com...

They don't vaporize.

3) the physics of the building collapses

I've seen physics arguments for both sides... Honestly, if the terrorists increased to full speed before crashing, I can't see how that wouldn't have been enough. It should be a pretty easy physics calculation : weight of plane X full speed of plane considered against the support structure of the towers. If this was physically impossible, I think there would have been more backlash from physicists who MUST have run those numbers a thousand times afterward.
The physics fully supports the present narrative. The plane hitting the support is irrelevant. The fires weakened (not melted) the steel supports, causing catastrophic failure.

They fell at free-fall speed which is impossible based on the explanation of pancaking levels.

there was more but we can start with these I guess
I would be happy to explain or refute virtually every argument made in favor of conspiracy. Its absolute nonsense. The only plausibility is that they knew the attack was coming and let it happen so they could have their wars.

Heres an article I pass around frequently:
http://spectator.org...
It says that Osama bin Laden did not do it and died in July or December 2001. The actual perpetrator is in our custody: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/8/2010 11:41:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Investigations were launched for things like Pearl Harbor, Space Shuttle explosions and the JFK assassination within just a week or two.

It took the government over a year to launch one for 9/11.

That really sticks out to me.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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9/8/2010 11:42:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 11:38:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'll just be bringing up some of the things that stumped me. I'm not actually a truther.

Well, we'll flip a coin. Maybe tomorrow you will be.

Also, inb4 Geo.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/8/2010 11:45:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 11:42:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There's no denying that the Bush family had very strong ties to the Bin Laden family.

That part is pretty much a known fact. It still isn't evidence on its own that 9/11 was an inside job though. Anyway, I'm pretty much torn as both sides seem to have some convincing arguments. I do lean more towards the truther side though.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/9/2010 12:14:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/8/2010 11:41:13 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Investigations were launched for things like Pearl Harbor, Space Shuttle explosions and the JFK assassination within just a week or two.

It took the government over a year to launch one for 9/11.

That really sticks out to me.

It shouldn't. The 9/11 Commission, which is what I assume you're referring to, wasn't in the conventional sense an "investigation" - it was the wrap-up committee that was supposed to sift through all the evidence and reports of the investigations that were going on. It's was a civilian oversight committee, more than anything else.

There were investigations going on before then, though, they just weren't necessarily public. After 9/11, every major law enforcement agency went through an internal review to find out what the f*ck had happened. You can make a persuasive argument that a civilian investigation should have occurred sooner, but it's all pointless now.

Anyways, I despise Truthers. They make little sense and rely on the same false dichotomies and premises that creationists and birthers do. With that low of a standard for evidence, how can anyone believe them?
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/9/2010 12:27:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/9/2010 12:14:20 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/8/2010 11:41:13 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Investigations were launched for things like Pearl Harbor, Space Shuttle explosions and the JFK assassination within just a week or two.

It took the government over a year to launch one for 9/11.

That really sticks out to me.

It shouldn't. The 9/11 Commission, which is what I assume you're referring to, wasn't in the conventional sense an "investigation" - it was the wrap-up committee that was supposed to sift through all the evidence and reports of the investigations that were going on. It's was a civilian oversight committee, more than anything else.

There were investigations going on before then, though, they just weren't necessarily public. After 9/11, every major law enforcement agency went through an internal review to find out what the f*ck had happened. You can make a persuasive argument that a civilian investigation should have occurred sooner, but it's all pointless now.

Anyways, I despise Truthers. They make little sense and rely on the same false dichotomies and premises that creationists and birthers do. With that low of a standard for evidence, how can anyone believe them?

I agree. Most I talk to will use anything as an excuse for their belief. They believe it because they want to. They want to blame the government for everything.

I've never really thought the government was an evil conspiracy. Just really stupid.
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fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/9/2010 12:33:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I've said it a million times before and ill say it again. The 911 Commission already admitted that the government agreed to lie about 911. I'm tired of posting the link, look it up.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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9/9/2010 12:44:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
9/11 truthers are not the conspiracy theorists here. You are. You are believing in a man that is a terrorist and known for his lies, who has hardly ever explained something about 9/11 when he was asked.

Volkov, do you seriously think we have no evidence for this being an inside job? Please, what evidence do you have for it not being an inside job? Please tell, than you very much.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/9/2010 12:52:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/9/2010 12:44:40 AM, Mirza wrote:
Volkov, do you seriously think we have no evidence for this being an inside job? Please, what evidence do you have for it not being an inside job? Please tell, than you very much.

I'm sure Truthers have evidence - but if you bothered to read what I put, I said your standards are quite low. Most of it is based off of conjecture and the rumour mill and viral e-mails. It scares me how modern mass media has allowed such a small movement with little to show such a wide audience!

But, I digress. You're essentially asking me to disprove a double negative, because how can I disprove something you've yet to even prove? That doesn't make much sense.

Come back with an argument and your so-called "evidence," and we'll see who proves what here.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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9/9/2010 1:03:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/9/2010 12:52:28 AM, Volkov wrote:
I'm sure Truthers have evidence - but if you bothered to read what I put, I said your standards are quite low. Most of it is based off of conjecture and the rumour mill and viral e-mails. It scares me how modern mass media has allowed such a small movement with little to show such a wide audience!
We have a lot of evidence. We have much more than you. What evidence did Bush have for WMD's in Iraq when he committed a major mistake there? What evidence? Now we all know that the terrorist lied to everyone. Who asks him whether or not he lied about 9/11? Why do you not question his loyalty in this case?

But, I digress. You're essentially asking me to disprove a double negative, because how can I disprove something you've yet to even prove? That doesn't make much sense.
No, and no. You have a very wrong view of this. I am not asking you to make evident something that did not happen. I am merely asking you to put forth evidence for what has happened. You know planes hit buildings and so forth, and I am asking you to prove to me that the U.S. government did not do it, but Osama bin Laden or someone else. Try it, thank you.

Come back with an argument and your so-called "evidence," and we'll see who proves what here.
I will, but I ask you first. I am excited.