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Recording Da Police

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/11/2010 4:49:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Police can (and tend to be) brutal tyrants [1]. Not ALL cops are scummy, but a significant amount are, and this is becoming easier to prove thanks to cell phones with built in recording devices. More police than ever are being held accountable for their deeds largely in part to blatant evidence of them beating and/or assaulting innocent people for no reason.

However, certain laws in many states prohibit the recording of police interaction, and reference their right to privacy and eavesdropping or wire tapping laws. In fact, someone was recently arrested and held on 20,000$ bond in Chicago for recording his own arrest. Three years ago, lawyer Simon Glik recorded Boston cops as they used excessive force in an encounter with a young man. Glik was arrested for recording it [2].

The guvmint maintains that all interaction with police offers are "private conversations" and recording interaction with them (even your own... which makes no sense) is apparently illegal and punishable with jail time. Is this not a blatant violation of our rights, and an obvious attempt to protect officers in cases where they are abusing their power?! I've had awful experiences with cops and these laws greatly concern me. I wish the Tea Party would take up causes like this.

Why can the guvmint record us but we can't record them?

[1] http://www.policebrutality.info...
[2] http://www.npr.org...
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Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/11/2010 4:57:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 4:49:52 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Police can (and tend to be) brutal tyrants [1]. Not ALL cops are scummy, but a significant amount are, and this is becoming easier to prove thanks to cell phones with built in recording devices. More police than ever are being held accountable for their deeds largely in part to blatant evidence of them beating and/or assaulting innocent people for no reason.

However, certain laws in many states prohibit the recording of police interaction, and reference their right to privacy and eavesdropping or wire tapping laws. In fact, someone was recently arrested and held on 20,000$ bond in Chicago for recording his own arrest. Three years ago, lawyer Simon Glik recorded Boston cops as they used excessive force in an encounter with a young man. Glik was arrested for recording it [2].

The guvmint maintains that all interaction with police offers are "private conversations" and recording interaction with them (even your own... which makes no sense) is apparently illegal and punishable with jail time. Is this not a blatant violation of our rights, and an obvious attempt to protect officers in cases where they are abusing their power?! I've had awful experiences with cops and these laws greatly concern me. I wish the Tea Party would take up causes like this.

Why can the guvmint record us but we can't record them?

[1] http://www.policebrutality.info...
[2] http://www.npr.org...

Yeah, this whole issue seems retarded to me. It's like the government is just protecting their on interests (the police), while violating our own rights.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/11/2010 4:57:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 4:49:52 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Not ALL cops are scummy, but a significant amount are,

To point out, this is true about any sort of profession in any society on the planet.

That being said, these laws aren't exactly justified. I suppose you can make an argument over the fact that such videos can be used to circumvent police operations and put officers in danger, but the fact that you can get in trouble even if its for a random roadside stop and you record stuff... ridiculous.

However, if someone starts recording officers who are trying to catch gangsters or drug dealers and doing so in order to interfere with police operations and etc., bit of a different situation, don't you think?
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/11/2010 4:59:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 4:57:54 PM, Volkov wrote:
To point out, this is true about any sort of profession in any society on the planet.

But their professions don't give them the legal right to assault you, apprehend you, interrogate you, etc. An a-sshole cop is much different than an a-sshole sales clerk or dentist. Cops can violate your rights and legally get away with it; scummy people in other professions generally cannot.
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I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/11/2010 5:00:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I guess the underlying principle is the same as why you aren't allowed to film a military base, security reasons. There is a lot of hate generated towards police officers, and often putting them on film can lead to their personal lives being invaded. What police do in their personal lives is often very distinct from their careers and many want to keep that way.

That said, many only want this done when they are being irrationally brutal. It's a way for them to save their *ss from being sued, fired and havign their lives ruined by being an *ss. The only consideration I have here is that there is a pretty substantial minority of police officers who aren't viscous who don't want to be lumped with these other officers, and thus don't want to be filmed wearing an officers uniform.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Danielle
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9/11/2010 5:03:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 4:57:54 PM, Volkov wrote:
However, if someone starts recording officers who are trying to catch gangsters or drug dealers and doing so in order to interfere with police operations and etc., bit of a different situation, don't you think?

No... how would recording them affect anything? I'm sure any brainstorming would be done at the police headquarters. If something is done on public property or whatever then how will recording be relevant? Taping cops go into a house? I don't see the problem.

The guvmint argues, "You don't want that hesitation. You want them to act on their instincts, and their training as well. If officers think they're being recorded, they think there's an extra Big Brother over their shoulder that will judge them 10 minutes, 10 days, 10 years down the line, on the action or utterances they're making today."

I think that's the worst argument (defense) ever. They SHOULD assume that their actions will be judged. If responding to their instincts means doing things that would protect their own safety, then what's the problem? The only time this would be an issue is in cases where they're caught committing a crime or other unwarranted hostility.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/11/2010 5:05:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:00:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The only consideration I have here is that there is a pretty substantial minority of police officers who aren't viscous who don't want to be lumped with these other officers, and thus don't want to be filmed wearing an officers uniform.

I don't want to be recorded in a lot of places, but I am...
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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/11/2010 5:07:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 4:59:37 PM, theLwerd wrote:
But their professions don't give them the legal right to assault you, apprehend you, interrogate you, etc. An a-sshole cop is much different than an a-sshole sales clerk or dentist. Cops can violate your rights and legally get away with it; scummy people in other professions generally cannot.

What really can you say that's different for those that run financial institutions that rip people off and destroy livelihoods, usually with the same attitudes you see in the evil cops? That its illegal for them to do this? Wasn't illegal to set up the housing crisis, was it...

People can be a-holes, but that's just the nature of people. Yet rarely do I see a civil libertarian scream at those that collapse economies, the same way I see them yell at cops. Not saying you're one of those, but it's a common thread. Because law enforcement is the authority, are there to uphold laws and the majority of them do it within proper bounds, they get the targets painted on them.

A shame, if you ask me.
I-am-a-panda
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9/11/2010 5:08:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:05:59 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:00:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The only consideration I have here is that there is a pretty substantial minority of police officers who aren't viscous who don't want to be lumped with these other officers, and thus don't want to be filmed wearing an officers uniform.

I don't want to be recorded in a lot of places, but I am...

And you think police officers want to be?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/11/2010 5:13:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:03:34 PM, theLwerd wrote:
I think that's the worst argument (defense) ever. They SHOULD assume that their actions will be judged. If responding to their instincts means doing things that would protect their own safety, then what's the problem? The only time this would be an issue is in cases where they're caught committing a crime or other unwarranted hostility.

This sounds exactly like the argument many "guvmint" people use when installing cameras everywhere - only wrong doers need be worried.

Well, you and I both know that's bullsh*t, and it's a double standard. Cops get a bad rap, sometimes because they deserve, and sometimes they don't. Allowing everyone to videotape every cop everywhere gives them a helluva headache and constant knowledge that no matter what they do, they'll be judged not only in a review of those actions, but forever by those that are going to constantly oppose any action they do, no matter how justified. It leads to people, cops, or whomever, second-guessing themselves at every step with whatever they do. You can't have that in police operations where they must be on their toes. Cops have enough to worry about with all the restrictions on their power already - why must every person become a citizen journalist, whether they're actually justified in what they tape, say, and report, or not?
Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/11/2010 5:34:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:08:02 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:05:59 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:00:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The only consideration I have here is that there is a pretty substantial minority of police officers who aren't viscous who don't want to be lumped with these other officers, and thus don't want to be filmed wearing an officers uniform.

I don't want to be recorded in a lot of places, but I am...

And you think police officers want to be?

Probably not, but we have the right to tape them none-the-less. Stores record us when we go inside to make sure we don't break any laws, and its the same principle when people are recording the police.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/11/2010 5:35:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:34:16 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:08:02 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:05:59 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:00:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The only consideration I have here is that there is a pretty substantial minority of police officers who aren't viscous who don't want to be lumped with these other officers, and thus don't want to be filmed wearing an officers uniform.

I don't want to be recorded in a lot of places, but I am...

And you think police officers want to be?

Probably not, but we have the right to tape them none-the-less. Stores record us when we go inside to make sure we don't break any laws, and its the same principle when people are recording the police.

That's the stores private property. CCTV records both police officers and citizens indiscriminately.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/11/2010 5:37:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:13:15 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:03:34 PM, theLwerd wrote:
I think that's the worst argument (defense) ever. They SHOULD assume that their actions will be judged. If responding to their instincts means doing things that would protect their own safety, then what's the problem? The only time this would be an issue is in cases where they're caught committing a crime or other unwarranted hostility.

This sounds exactly like the argument many "guvmint" people use when installing cameras everywhere - only wrong doers need be worried.

Well, you and I both know that's bullsh*t, and it's a double standard. Cops get a bad rap, sometimes because they deserve, and sometimes they don't. Allowing everyone to videotape every cop everywhere gives them a helluva headache and constant knowledge that no matter what they do, they'll be judged not only in a review of those actions, but forever by those that are going to constantly oppose any action they do, no matter how justified. It leads to people, cops, or whomever, second-guessing themselves at every step with whatever they do. You can't have that in police operations where they must be on their toes. Cops have enough to worry about with all the restrictions on their power already - why must every person become a citizen journalist, whether they're actually justified in what they tape, say, and report, or not?

Maybe people shouldn't record the police, but they have no right to make it against the law to do so. This is in violation of our rights.
Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/11/2010 5:38:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:35:23 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:34:16 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:08:02 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:05:59 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:00:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The only consideration I have here is that there is a pretty substantial minority of police officers who aren't viscous who don't want to be lumped with these other officers, and thus don't want to be filmed wearing an officers uniform.

I don't want to be recorded in a lot of places, but I am...

And you think police officers want to be?

Probably not, but we have the right to tape them none-the-less. Stores record us when we go inside to make sure we don't break any laws, and its the same principle when people are recording the police.

That's the stores private property. CCTV records both police officers and citizens indiscriminately.

True, but people who are recording their own arrests are generally doing it for their best interests. They want to make sure if the cop does something legal, they will have it on tape. All the cops have to do is not break the law, and there is no problem.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/11/2010 5:40:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:38:48 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:35:23 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:34:16 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:08:02 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:05:59 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:00:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The only consideration I have here is that there is a pretty substantial minority of police officers who aren't viscous who don't want to be lumped with these other officers, and thus don't want to be filmed wearing an officers uniform.

I don't want to be recorded in a lot of places, but I am...

And you think police officers want to be?

Probably not, but we have the right to tape them none-the-less. Stores record us when we go inside to make sure we don't break any laws, and its the same principle when people are recording the police.

That's the stores private property. CCTV records both police officers and citizens indiscriminately.

True, but people who are recording their own arrests are generally doing it for their best interests. They want to make sure if the cop does something legal, they will have it on tape. All the cops have to do is not break the law, and there is no problem.

And if the police officer doesn't want to be on tape, which he has every right to request?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/11/2010 5:42:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:13:15 PM, Volkov wrote:
Cops have enough to worry about with all the restrictions on their power already - why must every person become a citizen journalist, whether they're actually justified in what they tape, say, and report, or not?

Alright Volkov, let's debate it.
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Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/11/2010 5:43:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:40:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:38:48 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:35:23 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:34:16 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:08:02 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:05:59 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:00:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The only consideration I have here is that there is a pretty substantial minority of police officers who aren't viscous who don't want to be lumped with these other officers, and thus don't want to be filmed wearing an officers uniform.

I don't want to be recorded in a lot of places, but I am...

And you think police officers want to be?

Probably not, but we have the right to tape them none-the-less. Stores record us when we go inside to make sure we don't break any laws, and its the same principle when people are recording the police.

That's the stores private property. CCTV records both police officers and citizens indiscriminately.

True, but people who are recording their own arrests are generally doing it for their best interests. They want to make sure if the cop does something legal, they will have it on tape. All the cops have to do is not break the law, and there is no problem.

And if the police officer doesn't want to be on tape, which he has every right to request?

Too bad? Thats like me asking a store turn off their security cameras when I enter it. I have to right to ask, and they have the right to say "Too freaking bad, you shop lifter."
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/11/2010 5:43:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:42:22 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Alright Volkov, let's debate it.

Alright, but lets not make it a huge mega-debate that will be noted in the pages of history, I've got quite a bit on my plate for the next week.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/11/2010 5:44:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I actually feel very passionately about this and would be more than happy to answer your question in a debate. I have plans tonight, but I can have the challenge out to you by morning.
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Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/11/2010 5:45:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:43:58 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:42:22 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Alright Volkov, let's debate it.

Alright, but lets not make it a huge mega-debate that will be noted in the pages of history, I've got quite a bit on my plate for the next week.

Looking forward to reading both of your arguments.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/11/2010 5:45:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Lol, of course. I will send you the challenge to accept but I won't write it til tomorrow, at least, and it'll be the standard length.
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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/11/2010 5:47:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:42:54 PM, theLwerd wrote:
"Recording interaction with police officers should not be against the law."

I'll be PRO.

Ah, see, I never said it shouldn't be legal - I just disagree with the notion that recording officers, like recording citizens, is necessarily a good idea especially given the contexts that our media-driven culture build around it.

How about, "Recording non-abusive interactions with the police does more harm than good," or something sort of similar but worded differently.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/11/2010 5:47:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:43:54 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:40:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:38:48 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:35:23 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:34:16 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:08:02 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:05:59 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:00:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The only consideration I have here is that there is a pretty substantial minority of police officers who aren't viscous who don't want to be lumped with these other officers, and thus don't want to be filmed wearing an officers uniform.

I don't want to be recorded in a lot of places, but I am...

And you think police officers want to be?

Probably not, but we have the right to tape them none-the-less. Stores record us when we go inside to make sure we don't break any laws, and its the same principle when people are recording the police.

That's the stores private property. CCTV records both police officers and citizens indiscriminately.

True, but people who are recording their own arrests are generally doing it for their best interests. They want to make sure if the cop does something legal, they will have it on tape. All the cops have to do is not break the law, and there is no problem.

And if the police officer doesn't want to be on tape, which he has every right to request?

Too bad? Thats like me asking a store turn off their security cameras when I enter it. I have to right to ask, and they have the right to say "Too freaking bad, you shop lifter."

Different circumstances. When in the shop you're on someone elses properties and different rules apply. They have every right to record you as a precondition to you using their store.

However, unless you're gonna argue no-one has the right to privacy, i.e. not be filmed on the street, police officers have the right to not be filmed, and should such a request not be adhered to, like all good citizens, demand the footage be deleted.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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9/11/2010 5:48:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:47:48 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
Funny how Cop cars have cameras anyways. Double Standards much?
Because they want to spot crime and have evidence for it.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/11/2010 5:49:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:47:48 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
Funny how Cop cars have cameras anyways. Double Standards much?

Bit different, dude. The video cops have is to be used only for investigative and judicial purposes. That's not the case with video shot by the average Joe.
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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9/11/2010 5:50:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:49:17 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:47:48 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
Funny how Cop cars have cameras anyways. Double Standards much?

Bit different, dude. The video cops have is to be used only for investigative and judicial purposes. That's not the case with video shot by the average Joe.

Sure about that, Volkov?