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My thoughts on gun legislation.

Mr_Anderson
Posts: 116
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9/17/2015 5:08:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What if the NICS system we have now could be made available to civilians. If we mandated that everyone who sells a handgun must check the buyer before they sell and report the sale to their local PD this could conceivably be the only real thing that has an affect on crime considering that the majority of gun-deaths are commited with Handguns and the majority of criminals get the guns from friends or family. If we could closely monitor the flow of handguns it could reduce the number of handguns that get passed off and then sold to criminals whether out of negligence or not. Anyone who doesn't could be charged with criminal negligence.

Any thoughts?
Mr_Anderson
Posts: 116
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9/17/2015 6:12:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 5:12:53 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
There is a black market for everything, even tobacco. All it takes is one gun and one crazy person to make the news.

True, but it would deplete over time if every handgun sold was monitored from here on out.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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9/17/2015 7:18:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 6:12:39 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
At 9/17/2015 5:12:53 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
There is a black market for everything, even tobacco. All it takes is one gun and one crazy person to make the news.

True, but it would deplete over time if every handgun sold was monitored from here on out.

I've... seen things... you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion; I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannh"user Gate... All those... moments... will be lost, in time, like [chokes up] tears... in... rain. Time... to die.
JMcKinley
Posts: 314
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9/17/2015 7:23:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 6:12:39 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
At 9/17/2015 5:12:53 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
There is a black market for everything, even tobacco. All it takes is one gun and one crazy person to make the news.

True, but it would deplete over time if every handgun sold was monitored from here on out.

We tried something similar in Canada. Back in the 90's after the "cole Polytechnique shooting we created the Long Gun Registry which attempted to get every rifle and shotgun in the country registered to an owner. Legal transfers of a gun required getting the registration changed over to the new owner's name. Its a system very similar if not identical to what you are suggesting. And it was a complete and utter failure and was abolished in 2012. The costs were incredibly high and there was not a significant change in gun crime which had already been steadily dropping.

The problem with systems like this is that you will only be monitoring guns purchased legally by people who are legally entitled to own them. Typically these guns are not the problem. This system would not be able to track handguns that are obtained illegally. And it is typically illegal guns that are used by criminals. From a crime prevention standpoint, registries just don't do anything. They add paperwork and hassle to the lives of law-abiding citizens and have zero affect on criminals.

But we still register handguns in Canada, and we have since the early 30's. I doubt that the handgun registry is any more effective than the long gun registry at preventing crime, but handguns are much less popular in Canada than in the US, so the costs of the registry aren't very high and there isn't any popular movements to repeal those laws. The long gun registry on the other hand was widely hated and its destruction widely celebrated as shotguns and rifles are massively popular here due to the hunting opportunities we enjoy.

A registry for handguns in the US is certainly feasible, but I doubt it would be useful. Does registering vehicles prevent car accidents or drunk driving offences? No. Vehicle registries help fund the infrastructure for motor vehicles and facilitate insurance claims. Firearms don't require the infrastructure or insurance systems that motor vehicles do. So there is very little justification for registries.

In my opinion licensing is the way to go and not registering. Its much easier and more effective to issue licenses through government agencies to people rather than creating registries to track guns. You can have mandatory requirements for licenses such as background and mental health checks actually done by law enforcement agencies and not gun shop employees. You can require education and safety training as well. The problem is, if you need a license for something, its not your right to own it, but a conditional privilege afforded to you by the law. In the US gun ownership is a right, which is why licensing in the US is unlikely to happen.
Mr_Anderson
Posts: 116
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9/18/2015 5:26:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 7:23:11 PM, JMcKinley wrote:
At 9/17/2015 6:12:39 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
At 9/17/2015 5:12:53 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
There is a black market for everything, even tobacco. All it takes is one gun and one crazy person to make the news.

True, but it would deplete over time if every handgun sold was monitored from here on out.

We tried something similar in Canada. Back in the 90's after the "cole Polytechnique shooting we created the Long Gun Registry which attempted to get every rifle and shotgun in the country registered to an owner. Legal transfers of a gun required getting the registration changed over to the new owner's name. Its a system very similar if not identical to what you are suggesting. And it was a complete and utter failure and was abolished in 2012. The costs were incredibly high and there was not a significant change in gun crime which had already been steadily dropping.

The problem with systems like this is that you will only be monitoring guns purchased legally by people who are legally entitled to own them. Typically these guns are not the problem. This system would not be able to track handguns that are obtained illegally. And it is typically illegal guns that are used by criminals. From a crime prevention standpoint, registries just don't do anything. They add paperwork and hassle to the lives of law-abiding citizens and have zero affect on criminals.

But we still register handguns in Canada, and we have since the early 30's. I doubt that the handgun registry is any more effective than the long gun registry at preventing crime, but handguns are much less popular in Canada than in the US, so the costs of the registry aren't very high and there isn't any popular movements to repeal those laws. The long gun registry on the other hand was widely hated and its destruction widely celebrated as shotguns and rifles are massively popular here due to the hunting opportunities we enjoy.

A registry for handguns in the US is certainly feasible, but I doubt it would be useful. Does registering vehicles prevent car accidents or drunk driving offences? No. Vehicle registries help fund the infrastructure for motor vehicles and facilitate insurance claims. Firearms don't require the infrastructure or insurance systems that motor vehicles do. So there is very little justification for registries.

In my opinion licensing is the way to go and not registering. Its much easier and more effective to issue licenses through government agencies to people rather than creating registries to track guns. You can have mandatory requirements for licenses such as background and mental health checks actually done by law enforcement agencies and not gun shop employees. You can require education and safety training as well. The problem is, if you need a license for something, its not your right to own it, but a conditional privilege afforded to you by the law. In the US gun ownership is a right, which is why licensing in the US is unlikely to happen.

I see what you're saying but according to the ATF in the US, the majority of guns used in crimes are acquired from Friends or family, which may imply that they were owned legally to begin with
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/18/2015 5:29:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If they weren't acquired legally, they'd be acquired illegally. People will just make zip guns.
Mr_Anderson
Posts: 116
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9/18/2015 1:17:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 5:29:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
If they weren't acquired legally, they'd be acquired illegally. People will just make zip guns.

How many Joe shmoe criminals do you think are actually capable of building a gun from scratch? That'd be similar to me asking you to build a car engine from scratch. Not many people could do it.
Fly
Posts: 2,043
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9/18/2015 2:21:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 5:08:55 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
What if the NICS system we have now could be made available to civilians. If we mandated that everyone who sells a handgun must check the buyer before they sell and report the sale to their local PD this could conceivably be the only real thing that has an affect on crime considering that the majority of gun-deaths are commited with Handguns and the majority of criminals get the guns from friends or family. If we could closely monitor the flow of handguns it could reduce the number of handguns that get passed off and then sold to criminals whether out of negligence or not. Anyone who doesn't could be charged with criminal negligence.

Any thoughts?

I agree. The majority of criminal firearms were initially purchased legally from what I have read-- although one could argue that a straw purchase is illegal in its intent, it is otherwise a legal transaction in all other respects.

There also needs to be better enforcement of existing laws. The problem is that the NRA and its devotees pay only lip service to this idea while doing next to nothing about it. They also resort to the slippery slope argument anytime someone puts forth ideas such as this one you espouse, and nothing gets accomplished...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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9/18/2015 2:42:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 1:17:42 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:29:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
If they weren't acquired legally, they'd be acquired illegally. People will just make zip guns.

How many Joe shmoe criminals do you think are actually capable of building a gun from scratch? That'd be similar to me asking you to build a car engine from scratch. Not many people could do it.

All you need is a bullet and a striker. Even Making a bullet from scratch is easy. Making toast, now that is hard.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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9/18/2015 2:44:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 1:17:42 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:29:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
If they weren't acquired legally, they'd be acquired illegally. People will just make zip guns.

How many Joe shmoe criminals do you think are actually capable of building a gun from scratch? That'd be similar to me asking you to build a car engine from scratch. Not many people could do it.

You should see all the clever things a criminal can make when you add a workshop to a prison.
Mr_Anderson
Posts: 116
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9/18/2015 3:02:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 2:44:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/18/2015 1:17:42 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:29:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
If they weren't acquired legally, they'd be acquired illegally. People will just make zip guns.

How many Joe shmoe criminals do you think are actually capable of building a gun from scratch? That'd be similar to me asking you to build a car engine from scratch. Not many people could do it.

You should see all the clever things a criminal can make when you add a workshop to a prison.

So don't add workshops to prisons.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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9/18/2015 3:51:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 3:02:20 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
At 9/18/2015 2:44:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/18/2015 1:17:42 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:29:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
If they weren't acquired legally, they'd be acquired illegally. People will just make zip guns.

How many Joe shmoe criminals do you think are actually capable of building a gun from scratch? That'd be similar to me asking you to build a car engine from scratch. Not many people could do it.

You should see all the clever things a criminal can make when you add a workshop to a prison.


So don't add workshops to prisons.

Right, the solution to everything is a ban. Gotcha.
Sarra
Posts: 288
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9/18/2015 4:15:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I believe hunting rifles and hunting shotguns will always be legal in America. Some people on the political right believe all guns should be legal. I believe rocket propelled grenades and surface to air missile launchers should be illegal. If we cannot agree about rocket propelled grenades or surface to air missile launchers, then there is no point having this conversation with people on the political right.
http://www.politicususa.com...
Mr_Anderson
Posts: 116
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9/18/2015 6:24:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 3:51:10 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/18/2015 3:02:20 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
At 9/18/2015 2:44:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/18/2015 1:17:42 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:29:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
If they weren't acquired legally, they'd be acquired illegally. People will just make zip guns.

How many Joe shmoe criminals do you think are actually capable of building a gun from scratch? That'd be similar to me asking you to build a car engine from scratch. Not many people could do it.

You should see all the clever things a criminal can make when you add a workshop to a prison.


So don't add workshops to prisons.

Right, the solution to everything is a ban. Gotcha.

I never implied banning anything. Just don't give people in prison the means to make guns.
Mr_Anderson
Posts: 116
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9/18/2015 6:25:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 4:15:01 PM, Sarra wrote:
I believe hunting rifles and hunting shotguns will always be legal in America. Some people on the political right believe all guns should be legal. I believe rocket propelled grenades and surface to air missile launchers should be illegal. If we cannot agree about rocket propelled grenades or surface to air missile launchers, then there is no point having this conversation with people on the political right.
http://www.politicususa.com...

Meh, they'd be more fun than anything. I wouldn't waste time trying to make it legal though.
chass23RN
Posts: 43
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9/19/2015 4:40:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 1:17:42 PM, Mr_Anderson wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:29:21 AM, Wylted wrote:
If they weren't acquired legally, they'd be acquired illegally. People will just make zip guns.

How many Joe shmoe criminals do you think are actually capable of building a gun from scratch? That'd be similar to me asking you to build a car engine from scratch. Not many people could do it.

Actually making a gun is not hard at all. My husband and I collect old military guns and own all different types of firearms mainly for sport. We have concealed weapon permits, permits to buy guns from certain dealers ect... Anyway we follow the laws and that is why more laws won't help anything because those who follow the law are usually the ones that plan on not commiting crimes. What this country needs is gun education and saftey. I highly encourage everyone to take a gun saftey course, learn to shoot, and have protection. As a woman I love that I can be alone and protect myself and my kids if I need to. We teach our children how to use guns and gun safety. Of course parents need to protect young kids and lock things up so children do not hurt themselves or others and this is why education needs to be more important then making more laws for gun owners. They will never get all illegal guns off the streets no matter what so we need to move to plan b whitch is teaching law abiding citizens to protect themselves.
chass23RN
Posts: 43
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9/19/2015 4:47:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 4:15:01 PM, Sarra wrote:
I believe hunting rifles and hunting shotguns will always be legal in America. Some people on the political right believe all guns should be legal. I believe rocket propelled grenades and surface to air missile launchers should be illegal. If we cannot agree about rocket propelled grenades or surface to air missile launchers, then there is no point having this conversation with people on the political right.
http://www.politicususa.com...

I agree that we really as regular citizens do not have a need for grenade launchers ect.... but I think what people feel is if they start taking away the right to have any type of fire arm then it will eventually lead to taking away more and more. I don't know for sure but this is one reason. On the positive side we really don't have issues with American citizens killing others with these type of weapons. One thing I like is the American people are known all over the world for being heavily armed and I feel one reason we don't have other countries invading us is because we are a country that allows it's citizens to protect themselves
Sarra
Posts: 288
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9/19/2015 4:56:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/19/2015 4:47:53 PM, chass23RN wrote:
At 9/18/2015 4:15:01 PM, Sarra wrote:
I believe hunting rifles and hunting shotguns will always be legal in America. Some people on the political right believe all guns should be legal. I believe rocket propelled grenades and surface to air missile launchers should be illegal. If we cannot agree about rocket propelled grenades or surface to air missile launchers, then there is no point having this conversation with people on the political right.
http://www.politicususa.com...

I agree that we really as regular citizens do not have a need for grenade launchers ect.... but I think what people feel is if they start taking away the right to have any type of fire arm then it will eventually lead to taking away more and more. I don't know for sure but this is one reason. On the positive side we really don't have issues with American citizens killing others with these type of weapons. One thing I like is the American people are known all over the world for being heavily armed and I feel one reason we don't have other countries invading us is because we are a country that allows it's citizens to protect themselves

You make good points I never considered before - other countries not wanting to invade us because we have more guns (not including the guns military and police forces have) than people in America.