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Cell Phone Tracking

Danielle
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9/11/2010 5:12:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Here's another issue: People can (and it happens all the time) be tracked with their cell phone. We know the feds can easily gain access to our e-mails, phone records, bank account information, etc., but thanks to good ol' GWBs warrantless wiretapping program, prosecutors have been able to gain access to internal data from telecommunications companies that showed the locations of their customers' cell phones - including in real time.

This is possible because of GPS technology and other wiring routed through towers that can be used to pinpoint a phone's location to areas as small as a city block (I'm pretty sure this can be disabled by turning off your phone). They say this helps track "drug smugglers" but it's just yet another Orwellian example of Big Brother come to life.
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I-am-a-panda
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9/11/2010 5:17:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:12:22 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Here's another issue: People can (and it happens all the time) be tracked with their cell phone. We know the feds can easily gain access to our e-mails, phone records, bank account information, etc., but thanks to good ol' GWBs warrantless wiretapping program, prosecutors have been able to gain access to internal data from telecommunications companies that showed the locations of their customers' cell phones - including in real time.

This is possible because of GPS technology and other wiring routed through towers that can be used to pinpoint a phone's location to areas as small as a city block (I'm pretty sure this can be disabled by turning off your phone). They say this helps track "drug smugglers" but it's just yet another Orwellian example of Big Brother come to life.

No issue so long as the cell phone company makes it known these things can happen. I mean, people often point out "OMFG 1984 IN MAH COUNTRY!!!", but can you point to statistics, or hell even a string of individual cases, showing peoples privacy being invaded unlawfully and wrongly through this technology? I agree with the government being able to do this without the consent of companies, but the arguments against it are hypothetical unless you have proof.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
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9/11/2010 5:17:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
And what would you have happen - no more cell phones? Because that's generally the only way to stop people from tracking you through the wireless world.
I-am-a-panda
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9/11/2010 5:18:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:17:18 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:12:22 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Here's another issue: People can (and it happens all the time) be tracked with their cell phone. We know the feds can easily gain access to our e-mails, phone records, bank account information, etc., but thanks to good ol' GWBs warrantless wiretapping program, prosecutors have been able to gain access to internal data from telecommunications companies that showed the locations of their customers' cell phones - including in real time.

This is possible because of GPS technology and other wiring routed through towers that can be used to pinpoint a phone's location to areas as small as a city block (I'm pretty sure this can be disabled by turning off your phone). They say this helps track "drug smugglers" but it's just yet another Orwellian example of Big Brother come to life.

I DON'T agree with the government being able to do this without the consent of companies, but the arguments against it are hypothetical unless you have proof.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Danielle
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9/11/2010 5:18:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:17:45 PM, Volkov wrote:
And what would you have happen - no more cell phones? Because that's generally the only way to stop people from tracking you through the wireless world.

LEGALLY?
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Volkov
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9/11/2010 5:22:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:18:49 PM, theLwerd wrote:
LEGALLY?

Kind of a hard thing to nail down through legal means, don't you think? After all, the companies can track you, the groups that run the cell phone towers can track you, the civil service can track you, and depending on the equipment available, Joe Schmoe can track you too. These are groups that all have access to your wireless signal, though whether or not they're tracking you for malicious purposes is usually pretty slim. But you're constantly tracked, you know. I mean, when you take a trip from New York to Illinois, you're bouncing along all those cell phone towers - the company, the satellites, and etc. all follow your movement.
Danielle
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9/11/2010 5:24:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:17:18 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
No issue so long as the cell phone company makes it known these things can happen.

Most people haven't a clue.

I mean, people often point out "OMFG 1984 IN MAH COUNTRY!!!", but can you point to statistics, or hell even a string of individual cases, showing peoples privacy being invaded unlawfully and wrongly through this technology? I agree with the government being able to do this without the consent of companies, but the arguments against it are hypothetical unless you have proof.

http://www.geeksaresexy.net...

http://www.law.com...

http://www.brighthub.com...

http://www.wnd.com...

People who have been convicted of crime and released are tracked. Is that legal or just after they already served the time for their crime? Is it okay when people are not told that they're being tracked, such as the example in my first link, when they're simply part of a study? Phone companies should warn people that they can be tracked or investigated at any time (so people can shut their phone when they choose). Also, if they're tracked or investigated, people should request to be notified. I'm also curious as to your argument why the guvmint should be able to say "Find Panda" and gain access to that information for no reason at all.
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Danielle
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9/11/2010 5:25:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:22:02 PM, Volkov wrote:

It's common sense that people can track you at any moment. I asked you whether or not it should be legal. For regular people to track you, it's possible, but not legal (and amounts to stalking or other charges). The guvmint should have a warrant to do the same, because its an infringement of privacy. Just as they need a warrant to enter your house.
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Volkov
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9/11/2010 5:30:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:25:47 PM, theLwerd wrote:
It's common sense that people can track you at any moment. I asked you whether or not it should be legal. For regular people to track you, it's possible, but not legal (and amounts to stalking or other charges). The guvmint should have a warrant to do the same, because its an infringement of privacy. Just as they need a warrant to enter your house.

That really depends on whether or not you view your wireless signal as your own, or as the property of the carrier. In most cases, it's the property of the carrier - they own the cell phone towers, and are the ones who allow you to have a signal. Not only that, the satellites are also under the jurisdiction of the government - and where does your signal originate from? They probably have every legal right to track you if need be.

Now, I believe it's up to judicial review as to whether or not such a track is justified - but that's not the same as getting a warrant. I don't think they need a warrant.
I-am-a-panda
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9/11/2010 5:34:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/11/2010 5:24:09 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/11/2010 5:17:18 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
No issue so long as the cell phone company makes it known these things can happen.

Most people haven't a clue.

And so its their someone elses fault for them not reading the T&C?


I mean, people often point out "OMFG 1984 IN MAH COUNTRY!!!", but can you point to statistics, or hell even a string of individual cases, showing peoples privacy being invaded unlawfully and wrongly through this technology? I agree with the government being able to do this without the consent of companies, but the arguments against it are hypothetical unless you have proof.

http://www.geeksaresexy.net...

They tracked people without their permission. Those were individuals, not the gummit.


http://www.law.com...

"The content you have requested requires a premium subscription."


http://www.brighthub.com...

Tracking prisoners. Problem is?


http://www.wnd.com...

All those controversies were started by shareholders and the gummit, not disgruntled, harassed individuals.


People who have been convicted of crime and released are tracked. Is that legal or just after they already served the time for their crime?

Given that huge amounts re-offend, it's a decent idea to track them. You essentially forfeit a lot of your rights when you are imprisoned.

Is it okay when people are not told that they're being tracked, such as the example in my first link, when they're simply part of a study?

Of course that's an infringement of rights, but your complaint was the gummit doing it, not a bunch of scientists, correct?

Phone companies should warn people that they can be tracked or investigated at any time (so people can shut their phone when they choose).

It's called the T&C which woudl read something along the liens of "Cellular devices may be tracked by government authorities"

Also, if they're tracked or investigated, people should request to be notified.

That defeats the whole idea of tracking someone.

I'm also curious as to your argument why the guvmint should be able to say "Find Panda" and gain access to that information for no reason at all.

I don't think they should be able to do that their whim, except if a company allowed them to, and I used that company as my cell phone provider. I can of course read the T&C, find out I can be tracked, and switch to a more secure network, and failing that, abandon my phone.
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lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/12/2010 9:51:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
They should not be allowed to track you, read your texts, listen on your phone conversations, without a warrent.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
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9/13/2010 12:46:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 12:35:47 AM, juvanya wrote:
This is just one of many reasons not to get a cell phone.

Ive never had one. I never will.

I'm keeping mine. Its just a reason I have doubt in saying my stepdad is lying when he says stuff like "the FBI reads all your texts and by sending dirty texts you cold go to federal prison"
I still doubt it as I have never seen a source saying it is illegal for two consenting underage people sending dirty texts. w.e 16 in 2 months. They'd have nothing then anyway. But in Oklahoma he could be 40 and me 14 and the courts wouldn't care. I doubt they'd care about 14 +15.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
badger
Posts: 11,793
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9/13/2010 9:37:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
my phone was tapped before i'm fairly sure. i agree that the cops should need warrant before they do so.

complain more :)
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I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/13/2010 10:25:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 12:35:47 AM, juvanya wrote:
This is just one of many reasons not to get a cell phone.

Ive never had one. I never will.

Enjoy being stranded without a phone.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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9/13/2010 10:27:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Cell phone triangulation records have been legal in the UK for many years and has helped convict some of the most vile criminals in the country, for example child murderer Ian Huntley in 2003.

"Ian Huntley's conviction for the murder of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman was based partly on crucial mobile phone evidence - which nowadays is almost as useful to the police as fingerprints or DNA."

http://news.bbc.co.uk...

We also have more CCTV cameras per person than any other country in the world and this is another very useful tool that the police use to track down criminals.

Furthermore, anyone who is arrested (even if they are not charged) has their DNA taken and put on file. Many rapists who have been arrested for minor offences such as DUI have been collared this way.

If cell phone tracking, CCTV, DNA records, etc. help take criminals off the streets then surely this outweighs any civil liberty concerns people might have?
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Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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9/13/2010 10:30:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:27:10 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Cell phone triangulation records have been legal in the UK for many years and has helped convict some of the most vile criminals in the country, for example child murderer Ian Huntley in 2003.

"Ian Huntley's conviction for the murder of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman was based partly on crucial mobile phone evidence - which nowadays is almost as useful to the police as fingerprints or DNA."

http://news.bbc.co.uk...

We also have more CCTV cameras per person than any other country in the world and this is another very useful tool that the police use to track down criminals.

Furthermore, anyone who is arrested (even if they are not charged) has their DNA taken and put on file. Many rapists who have been arrested for minor offences such as DUI have been collared this way.

If cell phone tracking, CCTV, DNA records, etc. help take criminals off the streets then surely this outweighs any civil liberty concerns people might have?

The ends don't justify the means.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/13/2010 10:34:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:27:10 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
If cell phone tracking, CCTV, DNA records, etc. help take criminals off the streets then surely this outweighs any civil liberty concerns people might have?

Absolutely not. First, this tracking can be done on people who are not criminals or under arrest. Plus, it's been said many times that this tracking wouldn't be a bad thing *if they had a warrant.* I wouldn't be opposed to warrant tracking in search of criminals or suspects on the run. I mean the technology is out there anyway -- someone's gonna be able to do it. You might as well make it illegal to do it to innocent people for no reason though.

Plus, Weeds is on tonight (one of my favorite television programs) -- Season 6, episode 3 (the bastards played a re-run on Labor Day). Anyhoot in episode 2, the family was on the run because -- SPOILER -- the youngest son randomly killed someone. One of the first things they did was break their phones, or break the chip inside that controls the gps tracking. My point? Criminals will wisen up to this if they haven't already making this a pretty ineffective tool in the future. Therefore the "benefits of protection" will hardly outweigh the cost of liberty.
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J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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9/13/2010 10:37:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:27:10 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
If cell phone tracking, CCTV, DNA records, etc. help take criminals off the streets then surely this outweighs any civil liberty concerns people might have?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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9/13/2010 10:40:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:30:41 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/13/2010 10:27:10 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Cell phone triangulation records have been legal in the UK for many years and has helped convict some of the most vile criminals in the country, for example child murderer Ian Huntley in 2003.

"Ian Huntley's conviction for the murder of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman was based partly on crucial mobile phone evidence - which nowadays is almost as useful to the police as fingerprints or DNA."

http://news.bbc.co.uk...

We also have more CCTV cameras per person than any other country in the world and this is another very useful tool that the police use to track down criminals.

Furthermore, anyone who is arrested (even if they are not charged) has their DNA taken and put on file. Many rapists who have been arrested for minor offences such as DUI have been collared this way.

If cell phone tracking, CCTV, DNA records, etc. help take criminals off the streets then surely this outweighs any civil liberty concerns people might have?

The ends don't justify the means.

Really? So if a burglar turned your house over and he subsequently claimed in court that it couldn't have been him because he was staying with his girlfriend in Florida at the time, and she backed him up on this statement, you wouldn't want evidence that his cell phone network provider could produce to prove otherwise to be used to convict him?
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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9/13/2010 10:44:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:40:34 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/13/2010 10:30:41 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/13/2010 10:27:10 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Cell phone triangulation records have been legal in the UK for many years and has helped convict some of the most vile criminals in the country, for example child murderer Ian Huntley in 2003.

"Ian Huntley's conviction for the murder of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman was based partly on crucial mobile phone evidence - which nowadays is almost as useful to the police as fingerprints or DNA."

http://news.bbc.co.uk...

We also have more CCTV cameras per person than any other country in the world and this is another very useful tool that the police use to track down criminals.

Furthermore, anyone who is arrested (even if they are not charged) has their DNA taken and put on file. Many rapists who have been arrested for minor offences such as DUI have been collared this way.

If cell phone tracking, CCTV, DNA records, etc. help take criminals off the streets then surely this outweighs any civil liberty concerns people might have?

The ends don't justify the means.

Really? So if a burglar turned your house over and he subsequently claimed in court that it couldn't have been him because he was staying with his girlfriend in Florida at the time, and she backed him up on this statement, you wouldn't want evidence that his cell phone network provider could produce to prove otherwise to be used to convict him?

Irrelevant. One person's want isn't another person's justification.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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9/13/2010 10:45:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:37:35 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/13/2010 10:27:10 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
If cell phone tracking, CCTV, DNA records, etc. help take criminals off the streets then surely this outweighs any civil liberty concerns people might have?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

There are always checks and balances in place to ensure information is not misused. In the UK it's the independent Standards Commission and the Police Complaints Commission, I don't know about the US.
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J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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9/13/2010 10:45:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:40:34 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:

Really? So if a burglar turned your house over and he subsequently claimed in court that it couldn't have been him because he was staying with his girlfriend in Florida at the time, and she backed him up on this statement, you wouldn't want evidence that his cell phone network provider could produce to prove otherwise to be used to convict him?

If there are reasonable grounds for suspicion, no, I wouldn't have a problem with serving the phone company a subpoena.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/13/2010 10:46:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:45:21 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/13/2010 10:37:35 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/13/2010 10:27:10 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
If cell phone tracking, CCTV, DNA records, etc. help take criminals off the streets then surely this outweighs any civil liberty concerns people might have?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

There are always checks and balances in place to ensure information is not misused. In the UK it's the independent Standards Commission and the Police Complaints Commission, I don't know about the US.

And I'm guessing those independent bodies are run by?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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9/13/2010 10:48:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:45:28 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/13/2010 10:40:34 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:

Really? So if a burglar turned your house over and he subsequently claimed in court that it couldn't have been him because he was staying with his girlfriend in Florida at the time, and she backed him up on this statement, you wouldn't want evidence that his cell phone network provider could produce to prove otherwise to be used to convict him?

If there are reasonable grounds for suspicion, no, I wouldn't have a problem with serving the phone company a subpoena.

But on the other hand, I certainly wouldn't require the phone company to keep track of every customer's whereabouts at all time, which I'm guessing would be necessary in order for your plan to work.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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9/13/2010 10:48:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:44:47 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/13/2010 10:40:34 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/13/2010 10:30:41 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/13/2010 10:27:10 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Cell phone triangulation records have been legal in the UK for many years and has helped convict some of the most vile criminals in the country, for example child murderer Ian Huntley in 2003.

"Ian Huntley's conviction for the murder of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman was based partly on crucial mobile phone evidence - which nowadays is almost as useful to the police as fingerprints or DNA."

http://news.bbc.co.uk...

We also have more CCTV cameras per person than any other country in the world and this is another very useful tool that the police use to track down criminals.

Furthermore, anyone who is arrested (even if they are not charged) has their DNA taken and put on file. Many rapists who have been arrested for minor offences such as DUI have been collared this way.

If cell phone tracking, CCTV, DNA records, etc. help take criminals off the streets then surely this outweighs any civil liberty concerns people might have?

The ends don't justify the means.

Really? So if a burglar turned your house over and he subsequently claimed in court that it couldn't have been him because he was staying with his girlfriend in Florida at the time, and she backed him up on this statement, you wouldn't want evidence that his cell phone network provider could produce to prove otherwise to be used to convict him?

Irrelevant. One person's want isn't another person's justification.

Also, note that we're not just talking about requesting information from a phone company while a trial is going on. We're talking about actively tracking people with no warrant or reasonable suspicion.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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9/13/2010 10:50:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:45:21 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:

There are always checks and balances in place to ensure information is not misused. In the UK it's the independent Standards Commission and the Police Complaints Commission, I don't know about the US.

Oh, and what a fine track record checks and balances have at preventing tyranny.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/13/2010 10:58:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I pay hard-earned money for a cellphone and wireless service. I don't pay them to track me, let the government track me, or any other action used against me without my consent. The products I pay for shouldn't turn against me.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
I-am-a-panda
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9/13/2010 11:02:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/13/2010 10:59:55 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Not that I support this, but why worry when you're doing nothing illegal. ;)

Tell that to people who are wrongly convicted.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.