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France's Persecution of Gypsies

brian_eggleston
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9/14/2010 5:48:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
France has deported more than 1,000 Gypsies so far and is set to deport thousands more. A memo sent from the interior ministry to regional police chiefs read:

"Three hundred camps or illegal settlements must be cleared within three months, Gypsy camps are a priority."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...

Imagine the reaction if it were not Gypsies but Jews that were being rounded up and kicked out of the country.

I know Gypsies aren't popular with the general population, but neither were Jews living in Europe prior to the Second World War - and we all know what happened to them.

The international community should protest loudly at France's racist and illegal persecution of Gypsies.
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/14/2010 5:58:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Though no one can be very happy with collective punishment of an ethnic group it has to be observed that this has not just come out of nowhere. The gypsies are not as a whole an innocent party simply being persecuted for being different.

Besides, aren't they nomadic?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
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9/14/2010 6:15:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 5:58:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Though no one can be very happy with collective punishment of an ethnic group it has to be observed that this has not just come out of nowhere. The gypsies are not as a whole an innocent party simply being persecuted for being different.

Besides, aren't they nomadic?

The Gypsies were originally from India but they migrated and settled in various parts of Europe, where the indigenous populations persecuted them.

The Jews were originally from Israel but they migrated and settled in various parts of Europe, where the indigenous populations persecuted them.

Sure some Gypsies are a bit dodgy, but so are some Jews, so why should Jews be protected from government-sponsored ethnic cleaning but not Gypsies?
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Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/14/2010 6:59:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 6:15:23 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/14/2010 5:58:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Though no one can be very happy with collective punishment of an ethnic group it has to be observed that this has not just come out of nowhere. The gypsies are not as a whole an innocent party simply being persecuted for being different.

Besides, aren't they nomadic?

The Gypsies were originally from India but they migrated and settled in various parts of Europe, where the indigenous populations persecuted them.

The Jews were originally from Israel but they migrated and settled in various parts of Europe, where the indigenous populations persecuted them.

Sure some Gypsies are a bit dodgy, but so are some Jews, so why should Jews be protected from government-sponsored ethnic cleaning but not Gypsies?

Jews tend to buy houses, have jobs and pay taxes... well not so much the last one...

Gypsies tend to build illegal camps, subsist of welfare and find shall we say inapropriate ways to augment their wealth.

Yea I know what I sound like.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
I-am-a-panda
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9/14/2010 10:23:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
They're clearing illegal camps here, what's the issue? If they were Jewish illegal camps same logic.
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badger
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9/14/2010 10:26:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:23:07 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
They're clearing illegal camps here, what's the issue? If they were Jewish illegal camps same logic.

is there anywhere you can legally camp?
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I-am-a-panda
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9/14/2010 10:29:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:26:56 AM, badger wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:23:07 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
They're clearing illegal camps here, what's the issue? If they were Jewish illegal camps same logic.

is there anywhere you can legally camp?

Not really. You can go camping in France though.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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9/14/2010 10:32:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:23:07 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
They're clearing illegal camps here, what's the issue? If they were Jewish illegal camps same logic.

LOL @ relevance to israel-palestine conflict.

and... also, clearly that would be a case where it's NOT the same logic.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
I-am-a-panda
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9/14/2010 10:38:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:32:45 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:23:07 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
They're clearing illegal camps here, what's the issue? If they were Jewish illegal camps same logic.

LOL @ relevance to israel-palestine conflict.

and... also, clearly that would be a case where it's NOT the same logic.

And talking about this in reference to the Law of the Land, not that I necessarily agree with Israels policy towards settlement, but feel that since these are illegal camps in France the French have every right to expel these people.

Whether or not these laws are just is another question :).
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mattrodstrom
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9/14/2010 10:42:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:38:46 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:32:45 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:23:07 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
They're clearing illegal camps here, what's the issue? If they were Jewish illegal camps same logic.

LOL @ relevance to israel-palestine conflict.

and... also, clearly that would be a case where it's NOT the same logic.

And talking about this in reference to the Law of the Land, not that I necessarily agree with Israels policy towards settlement, but feel that since these are illegal camps in France the French have every right to expel these people.

well... I don't really know the law there...

But I have heard that there's pretty loosey-goosey regulations on inter-European travel now... what with the EU and all...

and if they're citizens of Europe... I'd think Deporting them would have to be in accordance with some EU law... and Where Would They Send Them??? Transylvania? :/

Whether or not these laws are just is another question :).
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
I-am-a-panda
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9/14/2010 10:43:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:42:38 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:38:46 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:32:45 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:23:07 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
They're clearing illegal camps here, what's the issue? If they were Jewish illegal camps same logic.

LOL @ relevance to israel-palestine conflict.

and... also, clearly that would be a case where it's NOT the same logic.

And talking about this in reference to the Law of the Land, not that I necessarily agree with Israels policy towards settlement, but feel that since these are illegal camps in France the French have every right to expel these people.

well... I don't really know the law there...

But I have heard that there's pretty loosey-goosey regulations on inter-European travel now... what with the EU and all...

and if they're citizens of Europe... I'd think Deporting them would have to be in accordance with some EU law... and Where Would They Send Them??? Transylvania? :/

You still need a visa in France to stay there for prolonged periods of time, last time I checked.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
mattrodstrom
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9/14/2010 10:44:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
though... if it's just "clearing" camps... not deporting people... I s'pose it'd be a Local law issue.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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9/14/2010 10:45:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:43:43 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
You still need a visa in France to stay there for prolonged periods of time, last time I checked.

where are most of these people official "citizens"?.. anywhere?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
badger
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9/14/2010 10:45:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:43:43 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:42:38 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:38:46 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:32:45 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:23:07 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
They're clearing illegal camps here, what's the issue? If they were Jewish illegal camps same logic.

LOL @ relevance to israel-palestine conflict.

and... also, clearly that would be a case where it's NOT the same logic.

And talking about this in reference to the Law of the Land, not that I necessarily agree with Israels policy towards settlement, but feel that since these are illegal camps in France the French have every right to expel these people.

well... I don't really know the law there...

But I have heard that there's pretty loosey-goosey regulations on inter-European travel now... what with the EU and all...

and if they're citizens of Europe... I'd think Deporting them would have to be in accordance with some EU law... and Where Would They Send Them??? Transylvania? :/

You still need a visa in France to stay there for prolonged periods of time, last time I checked.

do you? how come ireland's flooded with foreigners so? i thought that was cos of some eu rule...?
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I-am-a-panda
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9/14/2010 10:46:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:45:10 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:43:43 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
You still need a visa in France to stay there for prolonged periods of time, last time I checked.

where are most of these people official "citizens"?.. anywhere?

They have identity cards or visas which they must carry aroudn at all times.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
I-am-a-panda
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9/14/2010 10:47:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:45:50 AM, badger wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:43:43 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:42:38 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:38:46 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:32:45 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:23:07 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
They're clearing illegal camps here, what's the issue? If they were Jewish illegal camps same logic.

LOL @ relevance to israel-palestine conflict.

and... also, clearly that would be a case where it's NOT the same logic.

And talking about this in reference to the Law of the Land, not that I necessarily agree with Israels policy towards settlement, but feel that since these are illegal camps in France the French have every right to expel these people.

well... I don't really know the law there...

But I have heard that there's pretty loosey-goosey regulations on inter-European travel now... what with the EU and all...

and if they're citizens of Europe... I'd think Deporting them would have to be in accordance with some EU law... and Where Would They Send Them??? Transylvania? :/

You still need a visa in France to stay there for prolonged periods of time, last time I checked.

do you? how come ireland's flooded with foreigners so? i thought that was cos of some eu rule...?

Yeah, it's a lot easier to get a work permit and citizenship, but you're still not allowed move here willy nilly.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
mattrodstrom
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9/14/2010 10:50:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:46:07 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:45:10 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:43:43 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
You still need a visa in France to stay there for prolonged periods of time, last time I checked.

where are most of these people official "citizens"?.. anywhere?

They have identity cards or visas which they must carry aroudn at all times.

I kinda like the Idea of being a rootless gypsy :)

BAH! I don't need your stinking "citezenship" me and my crew are movin on in a few months...

Where was I born?... How'm I s'posed to know... prolly somewhere between Italy and Poland.. we don't keep records
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
I-am-a-panda
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9/14/2010 10:52:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:50:56 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:46:07 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:45:10 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:43:43 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
You still need a visa in France to stay there for prolonged periods of time, last time I checked.

where are most of these people official "citizens"?.. anywhere?

They have identity cards or visas which they must carry aroudn at all times.

I kinda like the Idea of being a rootless gypsy :)

BAH! I don't need your stinking "citezenship" me and my crew are movin on in a few months...

Where was I born?... How'm I s'posed to know... prolly somewhere between Italy and Poland.. we don't keep records


Apart from the huge discrimination Gypsies get.
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brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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9/14/2010 1:26:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:44:05 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
though... if it's just "clearing" camps... not deporting people... I s'pose it'd be a Local law issue.

No, they're deporting people - even though they are citizens of the EU. What France is doing is illegal - but they don't care because they are the 2nd largest member of the EU and they think they can get away with it.
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I-am-a-panda
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9/14/2010 1:29:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 1:26:30 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:44:05 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
though... if it's just "clearing" camps... not deporting people... I s'pose it'd be a Local law issue.

No, they're deporting people - even though they are citizens of the EU. What France is doing is illegal - but they don't care because they are the 2nd largest member of the EU and they think they can get away with it.

They're on illegal camps Brian.
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badger
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9/14/2010 1:30:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 1:26:30 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/14/2010 10:44:05 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
though... if it's just "clearing" camps... not deporting people... I s'pose it'd be a Local law issue.

No, they're deporting people - even though they are citizens of the EU. What France is doing is illegal - but they don't care because they are the 2nd largest member of the EU and they think they can get away with it.

what? french bastards! i'd let them off if we could do it too though... i'm not particularly fond of the polish.
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brian_eggleston
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9/14/2010 1:43:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 1:34:47 PM, badger wrote:
not all of them of course. i've had good sex with a few of them :) but the majority still!

Yes, it's a double-edged sword, isn't it? I've often thought that they should only allow fit young birds in (Ali G had a similar idea - but after me) and they should send all the blokes back where they came from!

@ Panda - Illegal camps, yes - but that doesn't give them the right to deport them.

What they should do is provide social housing for them but French people (like the British) don't want to live next door to a bunch a gypsies so planning permission is never granted.

That's why they have to live in illegal camps. It's a viscous circle.
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I-am-a-panda
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9/14/2010 1:50:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 1:43:07 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:34:47 PM, badger wrote:
@ Panda - Illegal camps, yes - but that doesn't give them the right to deport them.

If I commit a crime in Cork I'll get sent back to Dublin.


What they should do is provide social housing for them but French people (like the British) don't want to live next door to a bunch a gypsies so planning permission is never granted.

That opens a huge can of unnecessary worms. Furthermore, these gypsies choose to live as nomads and break the law. I don't see the need to tax people so they can give someone else housing, and especially where they're not liable to use said housing.


That's why they have to live in illegal camps. It's a viscous circle.

No, they choose to live in illegal camps. They're nomads Brian. Travellers choose to live in caravans. They're not disadvantaged, it by choice.
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badger
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9/14/2010 1:55:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 1:43:07 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:34:47 PM, badger wrote:
not all of them of course. i've had good sex with a few of them :) but the majority still!

Yes, it's a double-edged sword, isn't it? I've often thought that they should only allow fit young birds in (Ali G had a similar idea - but after me) and they should send all the blokes back where they came from!

geniuses, the both of ye. but jokes aside... i hate the polish.

@ Panda - Illegal camps, yes - but that doesn't give them the right to deport them.

What they should do is provide social housing for them but French people (like the British) don't want to live next door to a bunch a gypsies so planning permission is never granted.

"travellers" are now "settled travellers" (that's what they call themselves lol) over here. what a country!

That's why they have to live in illegal camps. It's a viscous circle.

we'll take 'em.
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badger
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9/14/2010 2:03:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 1:50:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:43:07 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:34:47 PM, badger wrote:
@ Panda - Illegal camps, yes - but that doesn't give them the right to deport them.

If I commit a crime in Cork I'll get sent back to Dublin.

i commited many a crime in cork and was never sent back to kerry lol.


What they should do is provide social housing for them but French people (like the British) don't want to live next door to a bunch a gypsies so planning permission is never granted.

That opens a huge can of unnecessary worms. Furthermore, these gypsies choose to live as nomads and break the law. I don't see the need to tax people so they can give someone else housing, and especially where they're not liable to use said housing.

they should be punished for camping illegally, but deporting them against the law most certainly isn't the way. that's a violation of rights right there :)


That's why they have to live in illegal camps. It's a viscous circle.

No, they choose to live in illegal camps. They're nomads Brian. Travellers choose to live in caravans. They're not disadvantaged, it by choice.

sounds like it was their only choice though.
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I-am-a-panda
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9/14/2010 2:16:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 2:03:25 PM, badger wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:50:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:43:07 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:34:47 PM, badger wrote:
@ Panda - Illegal camps, yes - but that doesn't give them the right to deport them.

If I commit a crime in Cork I'll get sent back to Dublin.

i commited many a crime in cork and was never sent back to kerry lol.

Well, if you camped illegally in Cork you would.



What they should do is provide social housing for them but French people (like the British) don't want to live next door to a bunch a gypsies so planning permission is never granted.

That opens a huge can of unnecessary worms. Furthermore, these gypsies choose to live as nomads and break the law. I don't see the need to tax people so they can give someone else housing, and especially where they're not liable to use said housing.

they should be punished for camping illegally, but deporting them against the law most certainly isn't the way. that's a violation of rights right there :)

"Firstly, the host country can deport them to their country of origin after 90 days if they do not have a job, sickness insurance or the means to support themselves (and if they have no family member in the host country capable of supporting them). This is to prevent people becoming a burden on the host country's social safety net.

Secondly, they can be deported if they present a threat to public order, public security or public health. " - http://news.bbc.co.uk...



That's why they have to live in illegal camps. It's a viscous circle.

No, they choose to live in illegal camps. They're nomads Brian. Travellers choose to live in caravans. They're not disadvantaged, it by choice.

sounds like it was their only choice though.

Not really, France has a pretty extensive public housing scheme, and there are plenty of houses on the market. Furthermore it was their choice to move to France.
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badger
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9/14/2010 2:31:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 2:16:56 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 2:03:25 PM, badger wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:50:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:43:07 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:34:47 PM, badger wrote:
@ Panda - Illegal camps, yes - but that doesn't give them the right to deport them.

If I commit a crime in Cork I'll get sent back to Dublin.

i commited many a crime in cork and was never sent back to kerry lol.

Well, if you camped illegally in Cork you would.



What they should do is provide social housing for them but French people (like the British) don't want to live next door to a bunch a gypsies so planning permission is never granted.

That opens a huge can of unnecessary worms. Furthermore, these gypsies choose to live as nomads and break the law. I don't see the need to tax people so they can give someone else housing, and especially where they're not liable to use said housing.

they should be punished for camping illegally, but deporting them against the law most certainly isn't the way. that's a violation of rights right there :)

"Firstly, the host country can deport them to their country of origin after 90 days if they do not have a job, sickness insurance or the means to support themselves (and if they have no family member in the host country capable of supporting them). This is to prevent people becoming a burden on the host country's social safety net.

i did not know that. class!

Secondly, they can be deported if they present a threat to public order, public security or public health. " - http://news.bbc.co.uk...

also class! i got the shite beaten out of me by a polish fella for the second time this weekend.




That's why they have to live in illegal camps. It's a viscous circle.

No, they choose to live in illegal camps. They're nomads Brian. Travellers choose to live in caravans. They're not disadvantaged, it by choice.

sounds like it was their only choice though.

Not really, France has a pretty extensive public housing scheme, and there are plenty of houses on the market. Furthermore it was their choice to move to France.

yeah, i dunno why i said that. have to start thinking before i write.
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9/14/2010 2:33:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 2:31:38 PM, badger wrote:
At 9/14/2010 2:16:56 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 2:03:25 PM, badger wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:50:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:43:07 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/14/2010 1:34:47 PM, badger wrote:



What they should do is provide social housing for them but French people (like the British) don't want to live next door to a bunch a gypsies so planning permission is never granted.

That opens a huge can of unnecessary worms. Furthermore, these gypsies choose to live as nomads and break the law. I don't see the need to tax people so they can give someone else housing, and especially where they're not liable to use said housing.

they should be punished for camping illegally, but deporting them against the law most certainly isn't the way. that's a violation of rights right there :)

"Firstly, the host country can deport them to their country of origin after 90 days if they do not have a job, sickness insurance or the means to support themselves (and if they have no family member in the host country capable of supporting them). This is to prevent people becoming a burden on the host country's social safety net.

i did not know that. class!

Secondly, they can be deported if they present a threat to public order, public security or public health. " - http://news.bbc.co.uk...

also class! i got the shite beaten out of me by a polish fella for the second time this weekend.

Well, you yourself are a huge threat to public safety. And yeah, report them on these grounds if you wish.





That's why they have to live in illegal camps. It's a viscous circle.

No, they choose to live in illegal camps. They're nomads Brian. Travellers choose to live in caravans. They're not disadvantaged, it by choice.

sounds like it was their only choice though.

Not really, France has a pretty extensive public housing scheme, and there are plenty of houses on the market. Furthermore it was their choice to move to France.

yeah, i dunno why i said that. have to start thinking before i write.

Yeah, that tends to help :).
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.