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Racism

1harderthanyouthink
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9/29/2015 11:47:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Racism:

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


Bigot:

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I've seen words like these thrown around constantly in the forum over the past few days. The problem is, on average, not racism. The problem is usually strawmans and misconstructions. So, I'm making this thread.

What doesn't constitute racism?

If you make an argument that involves race against the liberal mantra, you will be called a racist. But liberals ought not get caught up in petty matters as the mere disagreement of a race issue, when there is no evident superiority held by the accused in regards to the entirety of races. A mere disagreement does not constitute a racist. Here's an example of what I see in the forum:

P1: Person A said (thing Person B disagrees with), and therefore they are not for race-equality.
P2: People who are not for equality are racist.
C1: Person A is racist.

Compare that to this:

P1: Person A is against gay marriage.
P2: All people against gay marriages are homophobic and against gay rights.
C1: Person A is homophobic and against gay rights.

That's a problematic argument, because different political views have different justifications. Some people think there should be no civil marriage, and therefore no gay marriage, by effect. But if someone sees they are against gay marriage, they very well may be attacked for it.

This isn't the same as saying "blacks are less intelligent due to genetics". If you say you are against reparations for slavery for reasons A, B, and C - and someone else calls you a racist, they are simply making the deadly sin of strawmanning in debating.

There have been racist comments in this forum before, but the majority being called out on it so not fit the definition very well. It's quite sad, to me, to see so-called "liberals" and "progressives" go out of their way to censor any thought that might go against theirs by screaming "RACIST!"
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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ford_prefect
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9/30/2015 1:05:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 12:29:46 AM, Wylted wrote:
This sounds like something a racist person would say

fixed
1harderthanyouthink
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9/30/2015 1:57:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
That didn't take long. :)
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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1harderthanyouthink
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9/30/2015 1:59:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 1:57:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That didn't take long. :)

And I'm smiling because it proved my point. :)
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Greyparrot
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9/30/2015 2:23:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 1:59:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/30/2015 1:57:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That didn't take long. :)

And I'm smiling because it proved my point. :)

Stop smiling you racist apathizer.
1harderthanyouthink
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9/30/2015 2:29:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 2:23:09 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/30/2015 1:59:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/30/2015 1:57:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That didn't take long. :)

And I'm smiling because it proved my point. :)

Stop smiling you racist apathizer.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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kasmic
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9/30/2015 2:46:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago

The problem is usually strawmans and misconstructions. So, I'm making this thread.

Sure.....

It's quite sad, to me, to see so-called "liberals" and "progressives" go out of their way to censor any thought that might go against theirs by screaming "RACIST!"

Hmmm, it is not often that someone identifiies a problem and then provides a prime example of it in the same post.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
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ford_prefect
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9/30/2015 2:52:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 1:59:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/30/2015 1:57:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That didn't take long. :)

And I'm smiling because it proved my point. :)

joke
^
your head

On a serious note though, I didn't call you a racist. I don't know if you are or aren't. The contents of this post alone do not suffice for me to call you one, and if you read my comment carefully, you'll find that in fact I didn't.

That being said, this does sound like something a racist person might say. A non-racist person who is ignorant on the subject of racism might also say it.
ford_prefect
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9/30/2015 2:53:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 2:46:42 AM, kasmic wrote:

The problem is usually strawmans and misconstructions. So, I'm making this thread.

Sure.....

It's quite sad, to me, to see so-called "liberals" and "progressives" go out of their way to censor any thought that might go against theirs by screaming "RACIST!"

Hmmm, it is not often that someone identifiies a problem and then provides a prime example of it in the same post.

lol very true
1harderthanyouthink
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9/30/2015 3:13:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 2:52:30 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 9/30/2015 1:59:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/30/2015 1:57:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That didn't take long. :)

And I'm smiling because it proved my point. :)

joke
^
your head

On a serious note though, I didn't call you a racist. I don't know if you are or aren't. The contents of this post alone do not suffice for me to call you one, and if you read my comment carefully, you'll find that in fact I didn't.

That being said, this does sound like something a racist person might say. A non-racist person who is ignorant on the subject of racism might also say it.

I'm not ignorant of what racism is...I've been around a lot of openly racist people for my entire life.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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1harderthanyouthink
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9/30/2015 3:15:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 2:46:42 AM, kasmic wrote:

The problem is usually strawmans and misconstructions. So, I'm making this thread.

Sure.....

It's quite sad, to me, to see so-called "liberals" and "progressives" go out of their way to censor any thought that might go against theirs by screaming "RACIST!"

Hmmm, it is not often that someone identifiies a problem and then provides a prime example of it in the same post.

Are you saying I'm strawmanning the same way I accuse others of doing?

Really, an observation cannot be a strawman. And really, I could point you to examples, but I don't feel like Max would like that.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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popculturepooka
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9/30/2015 3:16:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
On the flip side, there are those who are legitimately confused of racism and they get mad and flustered and offended - because being *accused* of being a racist is worse than actually being one, apparently - and then dismiss real concerned by labeling their accuser as being "oversensitive", "the pc police", or say "not everything about race" (when clearly their interlocutor isn't talking about "everything" but they are talking about a specific thing that seems to involve race) or "see, this is the REAL issue with race discussions today (hint: it isn't).
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
1harderthanyouthink
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9/30/2015 3:25:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 3:16:04 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
On the flip side, there are those who are legitimately confused of racism and they get mad and flustered and offended - because being *accused* of being a racist is worse than actually being one, apparently - and then dismiss real concerned by labeling their accuser as being "oversensitive", "the pc police", or say "not everything about race" (when clearly their interlocutor isn't talking about "everything" but they are talking about a specific thing that seems to involve race) or "see, this is the REAL issue with race discussions today (hint: it isn't).

If you are legitimately not a racist, and you're accused of being one, you're not going to just let it stand. That's stupid to assume they won't be defensive.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/30/2015 4:13:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 1:05:44 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 9/30/2015 12:29:46 AM, Wylted wrote:
This sounds like something a racist person would say

fixed

Hey not all blacks are racist. Don't generalize bro
Wylted
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9/30/2015 4:16:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 3:25:25 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/30/2015 3:16:04 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
On the flip side, there are those who are legitimately confused of racism and they get mad and flustered and offended - because being *accused* of being a racist is worse than actually being one, apparently - and then dismiss real concerned by labeling their accuser as being "oversensitive", "the pc police", or say "not everything about race" (when clearly their interlocutor isn't talking about "everything" but they are talking about a specific thing that seems to involve race) or "see, this is the REAL issue with race discussions today (hint: it isn't).

If you are legitimately not a racist, and you're accused of being one, you're not going to just let it stand. That's stupid to assume they won't be defensive.

You should just let it stand and embrace it. They accuse you of being racist by deflecting. Like if I start arguing about welfare for example, I'll be called a racist for being against it. This is to change the subject to a thing they think they can win on.
ford_prefect
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9/30/2015 4:26:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 3:13:53 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/30/2015 2:52:30 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 9/30/2015 1:59:27 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/30/2015 1:57:35 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
That didn't take long. :)

And I'm smiling because it proved my point. :)

joke
^
your head

On a serious note though, I didn't call you a racist. I don't know if you are or aren't. The contents of this post alone do not suffice for me to call you one, and if you read my comment carefully, you'll find that in fact I didn't.

That being said, this does sound like something a racist person might say. A non-racist person who is ignorant on the subject of racism might also say it.

I'm not ignorant of what racism is...I've been around a lot of openly racist people for my entire life.

Yet you decided to make a thread on how the majority of racism accusations on this site are false. Because that's what's really important here.

How about a deal: For every false accusation of racism you show me on this site, I will show you three racist comments.
ford_prefect
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9/30/2015 4:27:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 4:13:42 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/30/2015 1:05:44 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 9/30/2015 12:29:46 AM, Wylted wrote:
This sounds like something a racist person would say

fixed

Hey not all blacks are racist. Don't generalize bro

#notallblacks but #yessomeblacks and #yessomewhites and #yesallracists
ford_prefect
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9/30/2015 4:29:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 4:16:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/30/2015 3:25:25 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/30/2015 3:16:04 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
On the flip side, there are those who are legitimately confused of racism and they get mad and flustered and offended - because being *accused* of being a racist is worse than actually being one, apparently - and then dismiss real concerned by labeling their accuser as being "oversensitive", "the pc police", or say "not everything about race" (when clearly their interlocutor isn't talking about "everything" but they are talking about a specific thing that seems to involve race) or "see, this is the REAL issue with race discussions today (hint: it isn't).

If you are legitimately not a racist, and you're accused of being one, you're not going to just let it stand. That's stupid to assume they won't be defensive.

You should just let it stand and embrace it. They accuse you of being racist by deflecting. Like if I start arguing about welfare for example, I'll be called a racist for being against it. This is to change the subject to a thing they think they can win on.

Being against welfare isn't racist. That being said, it wouldn't shock me if you said something while debating welfare (or any subject, really) that led people to call you a racist.
popculturepooka
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9/30/2015 4:40:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 3:25:25 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/30/2015 3:16:04 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
On the flip side, there are those who are legitimately confused of racism and they get mad and flustered and offended - because being *accused* of being a racist is worse than actually being one, apparently - and then dismiss real concerned by labeling their accuser as being "oversensitive", "the pc police", or say "not everything about race" (when clearly their interlocutor isn't talking about "everything" but they are talking about a specific thing that seems to involve race) or "see, this is the REAL issue with race discussions today (hint: it isn't).

If you are legitimately not a racist, and you're accused of being one, you're not going to just let it stand. That's stupid to assume they won't be defensive.

You can legtimately be racist and not think you are.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Skepsikyma
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9/30/2015 4:50:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Calling someone a racist is about the least productive thing that anybody can do, because so many things are racially charged that the word, which carries a heavy stigma, is often applied for reasons which are trifling in light of the grand picture. I think that it's always better to say (you/this) is significant for X, Y, Z reasons, this is the impact that it has; where do you disagree? Screaming racist is never going to accomplish anything, and screaming it at someone whom you do not even know is just going to lead to your cause taking a nosedive.

Toni Morrison is, in my opinion, one of the most profound and effective voices in this conversation. If everyone could be as forceful, elegant, and fair in their discussion of the topic, we would get a lot further. Just look at this discussion: instead of throwing around accusations, buzzwords and stupidity like 'privilege calculators,' she brings up the crux of the issue: what is racism, and how does it affect everyone involved? She explores both the general problem, and connects it to the particular, while always stressing the distinction between the two.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
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Wylted
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9/30/2015 6:17:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 4:29:49 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 9/30/2015 4:16:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/30/2015 3:25:25 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/30/2015 3:16:04 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
On the flip side, there are those who are legitimately confused of racism and they get mad and flustered and offended - because being *accused* of being a racist is worse than actually being one, apparently - and then dismiss real concerned by labeling their accuser as being "oversensitive", "the pc police", or say "not everything about race" (when clearly their interlocutor isn't talking about "everything" but they are talking about a specific thing that seems to involve race) or "see, this is the REAL issue with race discussions today (hint: it isn't).

If you are legitimately not a racist, and you're accused of being one, you're not going to just let it stand. That's stupid to assume they won't be defensive.

You should just let it stand and embrace it. They accuse you of being racist by deflecting. Like if I start arguing about welfare for example, I'll be called a racist for being against it. This is to change the subject to a thing they think they can win on.

Being against welfare isn't racist. That being said, it wouldn't shock me if you said something while debating welfare (or any subject, really) that led people to call you a racist.

No there are literally SJWs that will call people racist for having any conservative belief. I don't care what that belief is. If you try to explain yourself than you need to shut up and check your privilege, the fact they called you racist, means they won the argument in their head. On that topic, I have done a welfare debate. I did bring race into it, just as I usually bring race into my abortion debates, and I bring it up in almost any debate about the judicial system. I've never been called racist for bringing up race in those debates. Really I could leave race out of the abortion arguments and probably even do better in them, but most people are afraid to be called racist, so they're unsure how to handle my arguments.
stealspell
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9/30/2015 10:05:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/29/2015 11:47:49 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Racism:

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


Bigot:

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I've seen words like these thrown around constantly in the forum over the past few days. The problem is, on average, not racism. The problem is usually strawmans and misconstructions. So, I'm making this thread.

What doesn't constitute racism?

If you make an argument that involves race against the liberal mantra, you will be called a racist. But liberals ought not get caught up in petty matters as the mere disagreement of a race issue, when there is no evident superiority held by the accused in regards to the entirety of races. A mere disagreement does not constitute a racist. Here's an example of what I see in the forum:

P1: Person A said (thing Person B disagrees with), and therefore they are not for race-equality.
P2: People who are not for equality are racist.
C1: Person A is racist.

Compare that to this:

P1: Person A is against gay marriage.
P2: All people against gay marriages are homophobic and against gay rights.
C1: Person A is homophobic and against gay rights.

That's a problematic argument, because different political views have different justifications. Some people think there should be no civil marriage, and therefore no gay marriage, by effect. But if someone sees they are against gay marriage, they very well may be attacked for it.

This isn't the same as saying "blacks are less intelligent due to genetics". If you say you are against reparations for slavery for reasons A, B, and C - and someone else calls you a racist, they are simply making the deadly sin of strawmanning in debating.

There have been racist comments in this forum before, but the majority being called out on it so not fit the definition very well. It's quite sad, to me, to see so-called "liberals" and "progressives" go out of their way to censor any thought that might go against theirs by screaming "RACIST!"

You're pretty smart for a 14 year old.

I think the reason some liberals may jump to conclusions or are initially defensive or put their skeptic hat on when someone starts criticizing reparations for slavery is probably because they're questions the motives behind the criticism, similar to how a Christian conservative is a skeptic of the intentions behind building (or rebuilding) a Mosque near Ground Zero.
Otokage
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9/30/2015 12:30:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/29/2015 11:47:49 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Racism:

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


Bigot:

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I've seen words like these thrown around constantly in the forum over the past few days. The problem is, on average, not racism. The problem is usually strawmans and misconstructions. So, I'm making this thread.

What doesn't constitute racism?

If you make an argument that involves race against the liberal mantra, you will be called a racist. But liberals ought not get caught up in petty matters as the mere disagreement of a race issue, when there is no evident superiority held by the accused in regards to the entirety of races. A mere disagreement does not constitute a racist. Here's an example of what I see in the forum:

P1: Person A said (thing Person B disagrees with), and therefore they are not for race-equality.
P2: People who are not for equality are racist.
C1: Person A is racist.

Compare that to this:

P1: Person A is against gay marriage.
P2: All people against gay marriages are homophobic and against gay rights.
C1: Person A is homophobic and against gay rights.

That's a problematic argument, because different political views have different justifications. Some people think there should be no civil marriage, and therefore no gay marriage, by effect. But if someone sees they are against gay marriage, they very well may be attacked for it.

This isn't the same as saying "blacks are less intelligent due to genetics". If you say you are against reparations for slavery for reasons A, B, and C - and someone else calls you a racist, they are simply making the deadly sin of strawmanning in debating.

There have been racist comments in this forum before, but the majority being called out on it so not fit the definition very well. It's quite sad, to me, to see so-called "liberals" and "progressives" go out of their way to censor any thought that might go against theirs by screaming "RACIST!"

Its true that the word racist too often aims at putting shame on others in order for us to easily win an argument. This is made with a lot of other words like homophobic, as your cleverly pointed out.

However, this doesn't mean the other person is not in fact a racist or an homophobic. Sometimes, we call these people those things in order for them to understand what they are and see if they admit what they are, because a lot of times, people do not understand the implications of what they are saying and when they are called a "racist" or an "homophobic", sometimes they say to themselves "hey, maybe I'm not givin' too much thought to what I'm saying because I don't want to be a racist, so I will pay attention to my own comments and analyse if they are in fact racist." Get my point?

Also, in a debate forum, people usually back what they say with some argumentation. I mean, they rarely say: "I'm anti gay-marriage, and that's it". No. They usually start telling us how gays are these or that (in that case I quickly label them as homophobic), or how they are against marriage in general (in this case I won't label them as homophobic, because they clearly have nothing against gay people in particular).
Greyparrot
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9/30/2015 3:27:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I liked what Skeps said about this issue, that there is a marked difference between the general and the particular. When there is no distinction, then one can charge a person who hangs black men from trees with the same word as a person who just told someone they were colorblind.

I agree with Wylted that this tactic is really effective for shutting down any discussion.
1harderthanyouthink
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9/30/2015 3:31:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 4:50:10 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Calling someone a racist is about the least productive thing that anybody can do, because so many things are racially charged that the word, which carries a heavy stigma, is often applied for reasons which are trifling in light of the grand picture. I think that it's always better to say (you/this) is significant for X, Y, Z reasons, this is the impact that it has; where do you disagree? Screaming racist is never going to accomplish anything, and screaming it at someone whom you do not even know is just going to lead to your cause taking a nosedive.

<3

Toni Morrison is, in my opinion, one of the most profound and effective voices in this conversation. If everyone could be as forceful, elegant, and fair in their discussion of the topic, we would get a lot further. Just look at this discussion: instead of throwing around accusations, buzzwords and stupidity like 'privilege calculators,' she brings up the crux of the issue: what is racism, and how does it affect everyone involved? She explores both the general problem, and connects it to the particular, while always stressing the distinction between the two.



I'll watch that later.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Fly
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9/30/2015 6:40:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 3:31:01 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 9/30/2015 4:50:10 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Calling someone a racist is about the least productive thing that anybody can do, because so many things are racially charged that the word, which carries a heavy stigma, is often applied for reasons which are trifling in light of the grand picture. I think that it's always better to say (you/this) is significant for X, Y, Z reasons, this is the impact that it has; where do you disagree? Screaming racist is never going to accomplish anything, and screaming it at someone whom you do not even know is just going to lead to your cause taking a nosedive.

<3

Toni Morrison is, in my opinion, one of the most profound and effective voices in this conversation. If everyone could be as forceful, elegant, and fair in their discussion of the topic, we would get a lot further. Just look at this discussion: instead of throwing around accusations, buzzwords and stupidity like 'privilege calculators,' she brings up the crux of the issue: what is racism, and how does it affect everyone involved? She explores both the general problem, and connects it to the particular, while always stressing the distinction between the two.



I'll watch that later.

FYI, it's only 2 minutes 41 seconds, but it does leave the viewer hanging a bit at the "end."
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
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