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Should Africa ecome Like The U.S.A.

SuperRobotWars
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9/16/2010 4:17:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Should Africa become like the U.S.A.? I want your opinions.
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: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
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brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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9/16/2010 4:29:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
What? Discriminate against blacks you mean? Apart from white South Africans the people there are really going to suffer.

That seems very unkind; things are bad enough for them as it is!
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Zetsubou
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9/16/2010 6:31:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
AU -> USA

Over night? Sure, but then you'd have a white vs black cold war and a new industrial military complex, this would also mess up the world economy, Africa will no longer the worlds little b1tch. So as a US citizen, you're better off with starving, uneducated Africans.

If you mean by economics, to change to a Liberal fiscal stance, no. It's been tried by the World Bank, IMF and ITO with somethign that has become known as the Washington Consensus. It

The best choice for fast long turn development is Autarky or limited trade.

-I'm DDO's only African.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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9/16/2010 6:44:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If we could bring Africa up to be half as functional as the US (not saying much) we would probably double the amount of scientists and engineers in the world so I can go full cyborg sooner.
Things that are so interesting:

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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/16/2010 7:39:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 4:17:19 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Should Africa become like the U.S.A.? I want your opinions.

Rampant gun crime, homophobic hate preachers, terrible health care, sham elections... it's doing it's best what more do you want?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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9/16/2010 9:12:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 7:39:44 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/16/2010 4:17:19 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Should Africa become like the U.S.A.? I want your opinions.

Rampant gun crime, homophobic hate preachers, terrible health care, sham elections... it's doing it's best what more do you want?

How is gun crime significantly different from any other type of violent crime? How do you define sham elections? How do you compare African health care to US health care?
brian_eggleston
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9/16/2010 9:59:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 7:39:44 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/16/2010 4:17:19 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Should Africa become like the U.S.A.? I want your opinions.

Rampant gun crime, homophobic hate preachers, terrible health care, sham elections... it's doing it's best what more do you want?

Ha. ha! I was trying to think of something like that!
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Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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9/16/2010 10:01:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 9:59:26 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 9/16/2010 7:39:44 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/16/2010 4:17:19 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Should Africa become like the U.S.A.? I want your opinions.

Rampant gun crime, homophobic hate preachers, terrible health care, sham elections... it's doing it's best what more do you want?

Ha. ha! I was trying to think of something like that!

Can't win 'em all, Brian. :)
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/16/2010 11:49:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
In what sense? Economically, I'm presuming? Well yes, obviously, for them havign the same economic set-up as America will work out betetr for them, the obstacles for Africa are they get the short end of the stick and lack natural resources, as well as wide-spread corruption and political stupidity.

In terms of development Africa should follow Rwanda. If it's gonna get off ground aid needs to be focused on business investment, not sendign cows\goats to villages and irrigating farms. If you focus on manufacturing then pretty quickly you'll get a boom, and the farming sector will have to grow to feed the urban workforce, and then Africa slowly becomes developed.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/16/2010 11:56:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 9:12:26 AM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
At 9/16/2010 7:39:44 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/16/2010 4:17:19 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Should Africa become like the U.S.A.? I want your opinions.

Rampant gun crime, homophobic hate preachers, terrible health care, sham elections... it's doing it's best what more do you want?

How is gun crime significantly different from any other type of violent crime?

Guns.

How do you define sham elections?

Bush 2000.

How do you compare African health care to US health care?

You look at one, then you look at the other... like alongside it.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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9/16/2010 12:16:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 11:49:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In what sense? Economically, I'm presuming? Well yes, obviously, for them havign the same economic set-up as America will work out betetr for them, the obstacles for Africa are they get the short end of the stick and lack natural resources, as well as wide-spread corruption and political stupidity.
WTF, is wrong with with Irish Education, most African nations are rich in crops, oil and ores.

In terms of development Africa should follow Rwanda. If it's gonna get off ground aid needs to be focused on business investment, not sendign cows\goats to villages and irrigating farms. If you focus on manufacturing then pretty quickly you'll get a boom, and the farming sector will have to grow to feed the urban workforce, and then Africa slowly becomes developed.
Errr, manufacture of commercial good is high in Africa, it just doesn't go to citizens but is exported. You need money to by high class manufacture tools. If you have no money, you have no goods. Rwanda is also very bad model, it's a state ~10^2 miles, it doesn't have that much resources and it's not very developed. A better example would be Nigeria which developed under a limited government from 1980-2000, it openly defied the US modal, the rate of development has decreased since. Other examples are Angola, Libya and Botswana.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
I-am-a-panda
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9/16/2010 12:22:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 12:16:47 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 9/16/2010 11:49:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In what sense? Economically, I'm presuming? Well yes, obviously, for them havign the same economic set-up as America will work out betetr for them, the obstacles for Africa are they get the short end of the stick and lack natural resources, as well as wide-spread corruption and political stupidity.
WTF, is wrong with with Irish Education, most African nations are rich in crops, oil and ores.

Yes, most of the Sahara is abundant with these resources. Srsly. There might be a lot of resources, but Africa lacks the infrastructure to get them the necessary markets.

I was referring to Africa on a per km2 basis anyway.


In terms of development Africa should follow Rwanda. If it's gonna get off ground aid needs to be focused on business investment, not sendign cows\goats to villages and irrigating farms. If you focus on manufacturing then pretty quickly you'll get a boom, and the farming sector will have to grow to feed the urban workforce, and then Africa slowly becomes developed.
Errr, manufacture of commercial good is high in Africa, it just doesn't go to citizens but is exported. You need money to by high class manufacture tools. If you have no money, you have no goods. Rwanda is also very bad model, it's a state ~10^2 miles, it doesn't have that much resources and it's not very developed. A better example would be Nigeria which developed under a limited government from 1980-2000, it openly defied the US modal, the rate of development has decreased since. Other examples are Angola, Libya and Botswana.

Yeah, because Nigeria, as well as Angola and Libya, had oil, which the vast majority of Africans nations lack in that quantity. Saudi Arabia grew under an almost unlimited government but look where that is! Srsly.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Zetsubou
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9/16/2010 12:41:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 12:22:25 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/16/2010 12:16:47 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 9/16/2010 11:49:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In what sense? Economically, I'm presuming? Well yes, obviously, for them havign the same economic set-up as America will work out betetr for them, the obstacles for Africa are they get the short end of the stick and lack natural resources, as well as wide-spread corruption and political stupidity.
WTF, is wrong with with Irish Education, most African nations are rich in crops, oil and ores.

Yes, most of the Sahara is abundant with these resources. Srsly. There might be a lot of resources, but Africa lacks the infrastructure to get them the necessary markets.
That's not what it implies.

I was referring to Africa on a per km2 basis anyway.
It's better than it's counterparts save South America.


In terms of development Africa should follow Rwanda. If it's gonna get off ground aid needs to be focused on business investment, not sendign cows\goats to villages and irrigating farms. If you focus on manufacturing then pretty quickly you'll get a boom, and the farming sector will have to grow to feed the urban workforce, and then Africa slowly becomes developed.
Errr, manufacture of commercial good is high in Africa, it just doesn't go to citizens but is exported. You need money to by high class manufacture tools. If you have no money, you have no goods. Rwanda is also very bad model, it's a state ~10^2 miles, it doesn't have that much resources and it's not very developed. A better example would be Nigeria which developed under a limited government from 1980-2000, it openly defied the US modal, the rate of development has decreased since. Other examples are Angola, Libya and Botswana.

Yeah, because Nigeria, as well as Angola and Libya, had oil, which the vast majority of Africans nations lack in that quantity. Saudi Arabia grew under an almost unlimited government but look where that is! Srsly.
Most African states do, there's more to it. Sudan and Congo have trade agreements with China and even with their oil are still quite poor. Also, Nigeria doesn't have that much oil in regards to other African states.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
kelly224
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9/16/2010 12:53:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 4:17:19 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Should Africa become like the U.S.A.? I want your opinions.

No, I agree with someone who said there is already one dictator for the world.
kelly224
Posts: 952
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9/16/2010 12:55:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 6:44:43 AM, Sieben wrote:
If we could bring Africa up to be half as functional as the US (not saying much) we would probably double the amount of scientists and engineers in the world so I can go full cyborg sooner.

Who says they want to be caught up to our speed? As I have observed too much speed in the system isn't good.
kelly224
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9/16/2010 12:57:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 11:49:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In what sense? Economically, I'm presuming? Well yes, obviously, for them havign the same economic set-up as America will work out betetr for them, the obstacles for Africa are they get the short end of the stick and lack natural resources, as well as wide-spread corruption and political stupidity.

Africa has ALL the natural resources, that's why countries like the US exploit them so much.

In terms of development Africa should follow Rwanda. If it's gonna get off ground aid needs to be focused on business investment, not sendign cows\goats to villages and irrigating farms. If you focus on manufacturing then pretty quickly you'll get a boom, and the farming sector will have to grow to feed the urban workforce, and then Africa slowly becomes developed.
I-am-a-panda
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9/16/2010 1:03:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 12:41:35 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 9/16/2010 12:22:25 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/16/2010 12:16:47 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 9/16/2010 11:49:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In what sense? Economically, I'm presuming? Well yes, obviously, for them havign the same economic set-up as America will work out betetr for them, the obstacles for Africa are they get the short end of the stick and lack natural resources, as well as wide-spread corruption and political stupidity.
WTF, is wrong with with Irish Education, most African nations are rich in crops, oil and ores.

Yes, most of the Sahara is abundant with these resources. Srsly. There might be a lot of resources, but Africa lacks the infrastructure to get them the necessary markets.
That's not what it implies.

So? Still an issue.


I was referring to Africa on a per km2 basis anyway.
It's better than it's counterparts save South America.

Right, but resources =/= wealth, only if the necessary infrastructure is in place but they halp.



In terms of development Africa should follow Rwanda. If it's gonna get off ground aid needs to be focused on business investment, not sendign cows\goats to villages and irrigating farms. If you focus on manufacturing then pretty quickly you'll get a boom, and the farming sector will have to grow to feed the urban workforce, and then Africa slowly becomes developed.
Errr, manufacture of commercial good is high in Africa, it just doesn't go to citizens but is exported. You need money to by high class manufacture tools. If you have no money, you have no goods. Rwanda is also very bad model, it's a state ~10^2 miles, it doesn't have that much resources and it's not very developed. A better example would be Nigeria which developed under a limited government from 1980-2000, it openly defied the US modal, the rate of development has decreased since. Other examples are Angola, Libya and Botswana.

Yeah, because Nigeria, as well as Angola and Libya, had oil, which the vast majority of Africans nations lack in that quantity. Saudi Arabia grew under an almost unlimited government but look where that is! Srsly.
Most African states do, there's more to it. Sudan and Congo have trade agreements with China and even with their oil are still quite poor. Also, Nigeria doesn't have that much oil in regards to other African states.

For it's size Nigeria has a lot of oil which benefits it greatly.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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9/16/2010 1:14:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 11:56:06 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Rampant gun crime, homophobic hate preachers, terrible health care, sham elections... it's doing it's best what more do you want?

How is gun crime significantly different from any other type of violent crime?

Guns.

How do you define sham elections?

Bush 2000.

How do you compare African health care to US health care?

You look at one, then you look at the other... like alongside it.

Sorry, I must be in the wrong thread. I thought that this was a serious discussion.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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9/16/2010 1:52:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 6:31:51 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
AU -> USA


Over night? Sure, but then you'd have a white vs black cold war and a new industrial military complex, this would also mess up the world economy, Africa will no longer the worlds little b1tch. So as a US citizen, you're better off with starving, uneducated Africans.

If you mean by economics, to change to a Liberal fiscal stance, no. It's been tried by the World Bank, IMF and ITO with somethign that has become known as the Washington Consensus. It

The best choice for fast long turn development is Autarky or limited trade.

-I'm DDO's only African.

I'm African.
Zetsubou
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9/19/2010 4:21:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 1:52:43 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 9/16/2010 6:31:51 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
AU -> USA


Over night? Sure, but then you'd have a white vs black cold war and a new industrial military complex, this would also mess up the world economy, Africa will no longer the worlds little b1tch. So as a US citizen, you're better off with starving, uneducated Africans.

If you mean by economics, to change to a Liberal fiscal stance, no. It's been tried by the World Bank, IMF and ITO with somethign that has become known as the Washington Consensus. It

The best choice for fast long turn development is Autarky or limited trade.

-I'm DDO's only African.

I'm African.
Active user/90 percentile/2.5k posts
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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9/19/2010 4:25:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 1:03:19 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/16/2010 12:41:35 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 9/16/2010 12:22:25 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/16/2010 12:16:47 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 9/16/2010 11:49:39 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In what sense? Economically, I'm presuming? Well yes, obviously, for them havign the same economic set-up as America will work out betetr for them, the obstacles for Africa are they get the short end of the stick and lack natural resources, as well as wide-spread corruption and political stupidity.
WTF, is wrong with with Irish Education, most African nations are rich in crops, oil and ores.

Yes, most of the Sahara is abundant with these resources. Srsly. There might be a lot of resources, but Africa lacks the infrastructure to get them the necessary markets.
That's not what it implies.

So? Still an issue.
So? Whats your point.
and lack natural resources, as well as wide-spread corruption and political stupidity.>

<Yes, most of the Sahara is abundant with these resources. Srsly. There might be a lot of resources, but Africa lacks the infrastructure to get them the necessary markets.>


I was referring to Africa on a per km2 basis anyway.
It's better than it's counterparts save South America.

Right, but resources =/= wealth, only if the necessary infrastructure is in place but they halp.
Rwanda hasn't the infrastructure. Resources>Exports>~Wealth



In terms of development Africa should follow Rwanda. If it's gonna get off ground aid needs to be focused on business investment, not sendign cows\goats to villages and irrigating farms. If you focus on manufacturing then pretty quickly you'll get a boom, and the farming sector will have to grow to feed the urban workforce, and then Africa slowly becomes developed.
Errr, manufacture of commercial good is high in Africa, it just doesn't go to citizens but is exported. You need money to by high class manufacture tools. If you have no money, you have no goods. Rwanda is also very bad model, it's a state ~10^2 miles, it doesn't have that much resources and it's not very developed. A better example would be Nigeria which developed under a limited government from 1980-2000, it openly defied the US modal, the rate of development has decreased since. Other examples are Angola, Libya and Botswana.

Yeah, because Nigeria, as well as Angola and Libya, had oil, which the vast majority of Africans nations lack in that quantity. Saudi Arabia grew under an almost unlimited government but look where that is! Srsly.
Most African states do, there's more to it. Sudan and Congo have trade agreements with China and even with their oil are still quite poor. Also, Nigeria doesn't have that much oil in regards to other African states.

For it's size Nigeria has a lot of oil which benefits it greatly.
Yeah, but that not what got it it's wealth. Please review it's economic history, it's not the oil.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
nonentity
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9/19/2010 8:27:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 4:21:08 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 9/16/2010 1:52:43 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 9/16/2010 6:31:51 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
AU -> USA


Over night? Sure, but then you'd have a white vs black cold war and a new industrial military complex, this would also mess up the world economy, Africa will no longer the worlds little b1tch. So as a US citizen, you're better off with starving, uneducated Africans.

If you mean by economics, to change to a Liberal fiscal stance, no. It's been tried by the World Bank, IMF and ITO with somethign that has become known as the Washington Consensus. It

The best choice for fast long turn development is Autarky or limited trade.

-I'm DDO's only African.

I'm African.
Active user/90 percentile/2.5k posts

I am an active user, it's not that hard to be in the 90th percentile (your win ratio is 61%?) and I joined 10 months ago, which is not long after you. School and other things prevented me from posting for months.

And by the way, of all the responses you could have gave, that was the most lame.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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9/19/2010 8:30:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 8:27:55 AM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 9/19/2010 4:21:08 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 9/16/2010 1:52:43 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 9/16/2010 6:31:51 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
AU -> USA


Over night? Sure, but then you'd have a white vs black cold war and a new industrial military complex, this would also mess up the world economy, Africa will no longer the worlds little b1tch. So as a US citizen, you're better off with starving, uneducated Africans.

If you mean by economics, to change to a Liberal fiscal stance, no. It's been tried by the World Bank, IMF and ITO with somethign that has become known as the Washington Consensus. It

The best choice for fast long turn development is Autarky or limited trade.

-I'm DDO's only African.

I'm African.
Active user/90 percentile/2.5k posts

I am an active user, it's not that hard to be in the 90th percentile (your win ratio is 61%?) and I joined 10 months ago, which is not long after you. School and other things prevented me from posting for months.

And by the way, of all the responses you could have gave, that was the most lame.

Corrected: given
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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9/19/2010 10:32:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/16/2010 4:17:19 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Should Africa become like the U.S.A.? I want your opinions.:

You need to flesh this out a little more before a serious answer could be given.

For one thing, Africa is an entire continent and the US is on country. Are you suggesting what would happen if Africa united to be a supercontinent?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/19/2010 10:57:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 10:32:44 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 9/16/2010 4:17:19 AM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Should Africa become like the U.S.A.? I want your opinions.:

You need to flesh this out a little more before a serious answer could be given.

For one thing, Africa is an entire continent and the US is on country. Are you suggesting what would happen if Africa united to be a supercontinent?

What he said.

Plus, we see what happens already in singular states where differing tribes fight each other in internal wars, and the national government becomes essentially paralyzed. Imagine the United States Civil War with over 1000 allegiances to choose from, all fighting each other and the national government at the same time.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/19/2010 11:13:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Very Random Question:

So basically Americans wanted to make some South American countries completely capitalist. I think I'm referring to either Brazil or Argentina in particular, but I digress. Anyway what wound up happening was that the people were kept poor, obviously, as most held jobs were granted from sweatshop owners who obviously sent all the profits overseas to where they live. Not only were the citizens kept impoverished (and immobile) in this way, but none of their income could go toward infrastructure, education, starting up small businesses, etc.

In the U.S., we've avoided this fate by imposing tariffs throughout our nation's history (and during the Industrial Revolution in particular) so that even when England was producing better, cheaper goods, our citizens bought American thus allowing American companies to gain capital and invest in better products which they could then sell for a better value. In this way, government interference in the market completely saved the American economy by keeping it competitive and allowing businesses (companies) to thrive which gave a lot of jobs, etc. Surely it's obvious how Americans became far better off both as a country and as a people than the observable effect of what happened in South America in their completely free market.

What example of American policy are they suggesting Africa follow, exactly?
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Reasoning
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9/19/2010 11:20:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 11:13:57 AM, theLwerd wrote:
So basically Americans wanted to make some South American countries completely capitalist.

Do you mean Capitalism in the sense of Free Markets?

America has never imposed Free Markets on anyone.

I think I'm referring to either Brazil or Argentina in particular, but I digress. Anyway what wound up happening was that the people were kept poor, obviously, as most held jobs were granted from sweatshop owners who obviously sent all the profits overseas to where they live. Not only were the citizens kept impoverished (and immobile) in this way, but none of their income could go toward infrastructure, education, starting up small businesses, etc.

Because it wasn't a Free Market.

In the U.S., we've avoided this fate by imposing tariffs throughout our nation's history (and during the Industrial Revolution in particular) so that even when England was producing better, cheaper goods, our citizens bought American thus allowing American companies to gain capital and invest in better products which they could then sell for a better value.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

In this way, government interference in the market completely saved the American economy by keeping it competitive and allowing businesses (companies) to thrive which gave a lot of jobs, etc.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Surely it's obvious how Americans became far better off both as a country and as a people than the observable effect of what happened in South America in their completely free market.

In their completely Free Market?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Volkov
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9/19/2010 11:21:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
In anticipation of what someone will say, L:

The fact is that during many of these dictatorial regimes in Latin America where Americans encouraged open free markets, the governments were often still helping, subsidizing, and protecting commercial interests that in turn gave them money and business. Not really a "free market," you see.