Total Posts:50|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Democrat vs. Republican: Which is more moral?

Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 4:35:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I would hold that it's all a matter of which moral paradigm one accepts, and that people in general align themselves not with which party holds to policies which they see as beneficial, but with whichever part most aligns with their own moral paradigms. Enter Jonathan Haidt and his moral foundation theory:

Haidt, a social psychologist, theorized that there are six moral paradigms which, through both societal and selective pressure, humans have been wired to see the world, and that political differences are manifestations of different prioritizations of these paradigms. Here they are:

Care/Harm
Associated Emotion: Compassion
Origin: The drive to nurture and protect the vulnerable, particularly children.
Trigger: Suffering of the vulnerable in society.
Sensitivity: Common

Liberty/Oppression
Associated Emotions: Resentment and hatred
Origin: To prevent the domination of the group by those who are not authorized by the group to do so.
Trigger: Unsanctioned attempts at control.
Sensitivity: Common, but scales inversely with the Authority/Subversion paradigm.

Fairness/Cheating
Associated Emotions: Anger, gratitude, and guilt.
Origin: To protect ingroup altruism from the free rider problem.
Trigger: Receiving collective benefits which one does not deserve (anger from society, guilt from perpetrator) and contributing more to society than one takes (gratitude).
Sensitivity: More common among conservatives, but still fairly ubiquitous.

Loyalty/Betrayal
Associated Emotions: Pride and hatred.
Origin: To form cohesive social bonds and compete on a collective basis.
Trigger: Loyalty and sacrifice (pride) and betrayal (hatred)
Sensitivity: More common among conservatives.

Authority/Subversion
Associated Emotions: Fear and respect.
Origin: To establish hierarchies and social order, thus increasing efficiency.
Trigger: Subversion and rebellion against legitimate authorities (fear), superior authority or deference to a superior authority (respect).
Sensitivity: More common among conservatives.

Sanctity/Degradation
Associated Emotions: Disgust and revulsion.
Origin: To avoid rotten food and parasites (this foundation has been expanded to encompass everything from religious symbols to flags and even tax increases)
Trigger: The degradation of that which has been deemed sacred.
Sensitivity: More common among conservatives.

The rather steep moral divide in the US between conservatives and liberals at the moment explains the huge swathes of impoverished people who vote for Republicans, despite it being explicitly against their self interest: they share moral values with the Republicans which the Democrats have all but abandoned.

Thoughts on this theory? Which foundations are most important to you?

http://politicsofthemind.com......
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 12:46:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am very much Care/Harm.

Is that list meant to be exclusive?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,339
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 1:06:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 4:35:03 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

The rather steep moral divide in the US between conservatives and liberals at the moment explains the huge swathes of impoverished people who vote for Republicans, despite it being explicitly against their self interest: they share moral values with the Republicans which the Democrats have all but abandoned.

Thoughts on this theory? Which foundations are most important to you?

http://politicsofthemind.com......

Maybe the Beetles had it right all along. Money really can't buy you love.
Varrack
Posts: 2,411
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 2:18:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I read an article about this earlier from here: http://patriotpost.us... He made some conclusions from his findings that I found very interesting. It's all from a book called "The Righteous Mind".

"...conservatives can relate to the moral thinking of liberals, but the converse is not true at all. Haidt, who is liberal himself, elegantly explains how and why conservatives will view liberals as merely misguided while liberals tend to view conservatives as incomprehensible, insane, immoral, etc.

"Sadly, 'The Righteous Mind' proves irrefutably that trying to explain to liberals that their solutions might undermine vital institutions is fruitless. They cannot and will not relate, or even concede that such concerns fall into the realm of moral reasoning. The good news is that a coalition can be built among the rest of us who understand that destroying the hive to benefit the lone bee results inescapably in suffering for all"

"liberal prescriptions tend to be incredibly single-minded as compared to those of conservatives. Haidt uses the metaphor of a beehive to illustrate. A liberal, finding a bee in the hive suffering from injustice, is motivated more or less exclusively by the desire to get justice for the bee. A conservative...also desires to alleviate the injustice, but tries to find a solution that also contemplates the survival of the hive itself."


This is because people on the right have ideals in all six groups, while those on the left only have a few. It's about understanding the big picture versus what one perceives on the surface to be "social injustice".
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 2:29:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 12:46:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I am very much Care/Harm.

Is that list meant to be exclusive?

No, usually people just prioritize. For example, welfare. Republicans still believe in Care/Harm, but they prioritize Fairness/Cheating over it, so they are usually opposed to welfare because someone is getting something from society which they didn't pay back into the system for. They get especially upset over flagrant abuse of welfare. The same applies to immigration: this is why talk of illegal immigrants receiving benefits while not paying taxes is so incensing to those on the right. Democrats, on the other side, prioritize Care/Harm WAY over Fairness/Cheating, so these things don't really bother them too much.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 3:27:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 2:18:57 PM, Varrack wrote:
I read an article about this earlier from here: http://patriotpost.us... He made some conclusions from his findings that I found very interesting. It's all from a book called "The Righteous Mind".

"...conservatives can relate to the moral thinking of liberals, but the converse is not true at all. Haidt, who is liberal himself, elegantly explains how and why conservatives will view liberals as merely misguided while liberals tend to view conservatives as incomprehensible, insane, immoral, etc.

"Sadly, 'The Righteous Mind' proves irrefutably that trying to explain to liberals that their solutions might undermine vital institutions is fruitless. They cannot and will not relate, or even concede that such concerns fall into the realm of moral reasoning. The good news is that a coalition can be built among the rest of us who understand that destroying the hive to benefit the lone bee results inescapably in suffering for all"

"liberal prescriptions tend to be incredibly single-minded as compared to those of conservatives. Haidt uses the metaphor of a beehive to illustrate. A liberal, finding a bee in the hive suffering from injustice, is motivated more or less exclusively by the desire to get justice for the bee. A conservative...also desires to alleviate the injustice, but tries to find a solution that also contemplates the survival of the hive itself."


This is because people on the right have ideals in all six groups, while those on the left only have a few. It's about understanding the big picture versus what one perceives on the surface to be "social injustice".

I'd tend to agree with this; the left in America has degraded to the point where their concern for individualized well-being is destructive.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,107
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 3:33:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Meh. To say that these are mutually exclusive to the parties closes the mind to certain ideas too much.

If conservatives are more about fairness than care, then it feeds a notion that somehow liberals can't be fair. There's no rule regarding this - the parties don't decide moralist among the voters, the individual does. I'm, for example, against the idea of affirmative action in schools and the workplace out of an idea of merit. But, I subscribe more to the views of Democrats. It's not an exception, though: because there's no rule.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
slo1
Posts: 4,364
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 5:35:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
One of humanities greatest failures is to be overly focused on this on a personal and political level. In the Buddhist school of thought there are many examples of a Guru or spiritual leader giving a lesson to choose compassion over concerns of fairness.

Fairness/Cheating
Associated Emotions: Anger, gratitude, and guilt.
Origin: To protect ingroup altruism from the free rider problem.
Trigger: Receiving collective benefits which one does not deserve (anger from society, guilt from perpetrator) and contributing more to society than one takes (gratitude).
Sensitivity: More common among conservatives, but still fairly ubiquitous.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,255
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 6:34:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've often wondered what ties together the seemingly disparate and unrelated political opinions of conservatives and liberals. Each of these paradigms does a good job of explaining the moral forces at work on any given issue (e.g., sanctity and gay marriage), but why are the two major camps essentially split on all six of these dimensions. In other words, what's the "meta-paradigm" that accounts for how conservatives and liberals score on the lesser paradigms. In what overall framework are e.g., authority and sanctity both desirable and worth promoting.
Devilry
Posts: 490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 7:12:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Very interesting read. I suppose you could say I'm Care/Harm.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,255
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 7:18:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I just realized that four of the posters in this thread have animal avatars. Weird.

Obviously, owls are the best animals in the world.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 7:22:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 2:18:57 PM, Varrack wrote:
I read an article about this earlier from here: http://patriotpost.us... He made some conclusions from his findings that I found very interesting. It's all from a book called "The Righteous Mind".

"...conservatives can relate to the moral thinking of liberals, but the converse is not true at all. Haidt, who is liberal himself, elegantly explains how and why conservatives will view liberals as merely misguided while liberals tend to view conservatives as incomprehensible, insane, immoral, etc.

"Sadly, 'The Righteous Mind' proves irrefutably that trying to explain to liberals that their solutions might undermine vital institutions is fruitless. They cannot and will not relate, or even concede that such concerns fall into the realm of moral reasoning. The good news is that a coalition can be built among the rest of us who understand that destroying the hive to benefit the lone bee results inescapably in suffering for all"

"liberal prescriptions tend to be incredibly single-minded as compared to those of conservatives. Haidt uses the metaphor of a beehive to illustrate. A liberal, finding a bee in the hive suffering from injustice, is motivated more or less exclusively by the desire to get justice for the bee. A conservative...also desires to alleviate the injustice, but tries to find a solution that also contemplates the survival of the hive itself."


This is because people on the right have ideals in all six groups, while those on the left only have a few. It's about understanding the big picture versus what one perceives on the surface to be "social injustice".

I strongly disagree with this, and it seems rather a dogmatic view in itself to take. The author is portraying conservatives as open minded and liberals as closed minded, and does that not seem like a thinly veiled jab at liberal thinking?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Devilry
Posts: 490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 7:31:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 7:22:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 2:18:57 PM, Varrack wrote:
I read an article about this earlier from here: http://patriotpost.us... He made some conclusions from his findings that I found very interesting. It's all from a book called "The Righteous Mind".

"...conservatives can relate to the moral thinking of liberals, but the converse is not true at all. Haidt, who is liberal himself, elegantly explains how and why conservatives will view liberals as merely misguided while liberals tend to view conservatives as incomprehensible, insane, immoral, etc.

"Sadly, 'The Righteous Mind' proves irrefutably that trying to explain to liberals that their solutions might undermine vital institutions is fruitless. They cannot and will not relate, or even concede that such concerns fall into the realm of moral reasoning. The good news is that a coalition can be built among the rest of us who understand that destroying the hive to benefit the lone bee results inescapably in suffering for all"

"liberal prescriptions tend to be incredibly single-minded as compared to those of conservatives. Haidt uses the metaphor of a beehive to illustrate. A liberal, finding a bee in the hive suffering from injustice, is motivated more or less exclusively by the desire to get justice for the bee. A conservative...also desires to alleviate the injustice, but tries to find a solution that also contemplates the survival of the hive itself."


This is because people on the right have ideals in all six groups, while those on the left only have a few. It's about understanding the big picture versus what one perceives on the surface to be "social injustice".

I strongly disagree with this, and it seems rather a dogmatic view in itself to take. The author is portraying conservatives as open minded and liberals as closed minded, and does that not seem like a thinly veiled jab at liberal thinking?

Yes, most of that post is wrong. Haidt himself seems pretty spot on, though.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 7:33:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 7:31:44 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:22:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 2:18:57 PM, Varrack wrote:
I read an article about this earlier from here: http://patriotpost.us... He made some conclusions from his findings that I found very interesting. It's all from a book called "The Righteous Mind".

"...conservatives can relate to the moral thinking of liberals, but the converse is not true at all. Haidt, who is liberal himself, elegantly explains how and why conservatives will view liberals as merely misguided while liberals tend to view conservatives as incomprehensible, insane, immoral, etc.

"Sadly, 'The Righteous Mind' proves irrefutably that trying to explain to liberals that their solutions might undermine vital institutions is fruitless. They cannot and will not relate, or even concede that such concerns fall into the realm of moral reasoning. The good news is that a coalition can be built among the rest of us who understand that destroying the hive to benefit the lone bee results inescapably in suffering for all"

"liberal prescriptions tend to be incredibly single-minded as compared to those of conservatives. Haidt uses the metaphor of a beehive to illustrate. A liberal, finding a bee in the hive suffering from injustice, is motivated more or less exclusively by the desire to get justice for the bee. A conservative...also desires to alleviate the injustice, but tries to find a solution that also contemplates the survival of the hive itself."


This is because people on the right have ideals in all six groups, while those on the left only have a few. It's about understanding the big picture versus what one perceives on the surface to be "social injustice".

I strongly disagree with this, and it seems rather a dogmatic view in itself to take. The author is portraying conservatives as open minded and liberals as closed minded, and does that not seem like a thinly veiled jab at liberal thinking?

Yes, most of that post is wrong. Haidt himself seems pretty spot on, though.

Explain, please.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Devilry
Posts: 490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 7:44:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 7:33:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:31:44 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:22:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 2:18:57 PM, Varrack wrote:
I read an article about this earlier from here: http://patriotpost.us... He made some conclusions from his findings that I found very interesting. It's all from a book called "The Righteous Mind".

"...conservatives can relate to the moral thinking of liberals, but the converse is not true at all. Haidt, who is liberal himself, elegantly explains how and why conservatives will view liberals as merely misguided while liberals tend to view conservatives as incomprehensible, insane, immoral, etc.

"Sadly, 'The Righteous Mind' proves irrefutably that trying to explain to liberals that their solutions might undermine vital institutions is fruitless. They cannot and will not relate, or even concede that such concerns fall into the realm of moral reasoning. The good news is that a coalition can be built among the rest of us who understand that destroying the hive to benefit the lone bee results inescapably in suffering for all"

"liberal prescriptions tend to be incredibly single-minded as compared to those of conservatives. Haidt uses the metaphor of a beehive to illustrate. A liberal, finding a bee in the hive suffering from injustice, is motivated more or less exclusively by the desire to get justice for the bee. A conservative...also desires to alleviate the injustice, but tries to find a solution that also contemplates the survival of the hive itself."


This is because people on the right have ideals in all six groups, while those on the left only have a few. It's about understanding the big picture versus what one perceives on the surface to be "social injustice".

I strongly disagree with this, and it seems rather a dogmatic view in itself to take. The author is portraying conservatives as open minded and liberals as closed minded, and does that not seem like a thinly veiled jab at liberal thinking?

Yes, most of that post is wrong. Haidt himself seems pretty spot on, though.

Explain, please.

I don't think Haidt's point is that there's a 'bigger picture', but that that's just the point this idiot is taking from Haidt (because it lets him feel good about his dumb a-ss, of course). It's just morality, I think. Liberal morality is more Care/Harm, very concerned with helping out the next man. Conservatives, then, on other hand, are going to feel Care/Harm too, because it's of most basic moralistic thought that they do; but they're not completely swallowed up by it - that's the kicker. I'd say the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness, really. Though not that the left can't get carried away with itself too (forgetting about Sanctity/Degradation).
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 7:49:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 7:44:30 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:33:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:31:44 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:22:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 2:18:57 PM, Varrack wrote:
I read an article about this earlier from here: http://patriotpost.us... He made some conclusions from his findings that I found very interesting. It's all from a book called "The Righteous Mind".

"...conservatives can relate to the moral thinking of liberals, but the converse is not true at all. Haidt, who is liberal himself, elegantly explains how and why conservatives will view liberals as merely misguided while liberals tend to view conservatives as incomprehensible, insane, immoral, etc.

"Sadly, 'The Righteous Mind' proves irrefutably that trying to explain to liberals that their solutions might undermine vital institutions is fruitless. They cannot and will not relate, or even concede that such concerns fall into the realm of moral reasoning. The good news is that a coalition can be built among the rest of us who understand that destroying the hive to benefit the lone bee results inescapably in suffering for all"

"liberal prescriptions tend to be incredibly single-minded as compared to those of conservatives. Haidt uses the metaphor of a beehive to illustrate. A liberal, finding a bee in the hive suffering from injustice, is motivated more or less exclusively by the desire to get justice for the bee. A conservative...also desires to alleviate the injustice, but tries to find a solution that also contemplates the survival of the hive itself."


This is because people on the right have ideals in all six groups, while those on the left only have a few. It's about understanding the big picture versus what one perceives on the surface to be "social injustice".

I strongly disagree with this, and it seems rather a dogmatic view in itself to take. The author is portraying conservatives as open minded and liberals as closed minded, and does that not seem like a thinly veiled jab at liberal thinking?

Yes, most of that post is wrong. Haidt himself seems pretty spot on, though.

Explain, please.

Conservatives, then, on other hand, are going to feel Care/Harm too, because it's of most basic moralistic thought that they do; but they're not completely swallowed up by it - that's the kicker. I'd say the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness, really. Though not that the left can't get carried away with itself too (forgetting about Sanctity/Degradation).

I would reject the implication of this, namely, that liberals are "swallowed up" by Care/Harm.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Devilry
Posts: 490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 7:52:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 7:49:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:44:30 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:33:37 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:31:44 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:22:10 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 2:18:57 PM, Varrack wrote:
I read an article about this earlier from here: http://patriotpost.us... He made some conclusions from his findings that I found very interesting. It's all from a book called "The Righteous Mind".

"...conservatives can relate to the moral thinking of liberals, but the converse is not true at all. Haidt, who is liberal himself, elegantly explains how and why conservatives will view liberals as merely misguided while liberals tend to view conservatives as incomprehensible, insane, immoral, etc.

"Sadly, 'The Righteous Mind' proves irrefutably that trying to explain to liberals that their solutions might undermine vital institutions is fruitless. They cannot and will not relate, or even concede that such concerns fall into the realm of moral reasoning. The good news is that a coalition can be built among the rest of us who understand that destroying the hive to benefit the lone bee results inescapably in suffering for all"

"liberal prescriptions tend to be incredibly single-minded as compared to those of conservatives. Haidt uses the metaphor of a beehive to illustrate. A liberal, finding a bee in the hive suffering from injustice, is motivated more or less exclusively by the desire to get justice for the bee. A conservative...also desires to alleviate the injustice, but tries to find a solution that also contemplates the survival of the hive itself."


This is because people on the right have ideals in all six groups, while those on the left only have a few. It's about understanding the big picture versus what one perceives on the surface to be "social injustice".

I strongly disagree with this, and it seems rather a dogmatic view in itself to take. The author is portraying conservatives as open minded and liberals as closed minded, and does that not seem like a thinly veiled jab at liberal thinking?

Yes, most of that post is wrong. Haidt himself seems pretty spot on, though.

Explain, please.

Conservatives, then, on other hand, are going to feel Care/Harm too, because it's of most basic moralistic thought that they do; but they're not completely swallowed up by it - that's the kicker. I'd say the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness, really. Though not that the left can't get carried away with itself too (forgetting about Sanctity/Degradation).

I would reject the implication of this, namely, that liberals are "swallowed up" by Care/Harm.

Eh. One's morals are a huge part of who they are, and there's definitely a precipitous fall into Care/Harm.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Devilry
Posts: 490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 7:54:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Maybe I could've been gentler with my wording there. Speaking from personal experience, I guess. =p

I went a long part of my life without any sort of even just sensible selfishness.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 7:58:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 7:52:31 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:49:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:44:30 PM, Devilry wrote:
Conservatives, then, on other hand, are going to feel Care/Harm too, because it's of most basic moralistic thought that they do; but they're not completely swallowed up by it - that's the kicker. I'd say the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness, really. Though not that the left can't get carried away with itself too (forgetting about Sanctity/Degradation).

I would reject the implication of this, namely, that liberals are "swallowed up" by Care/Harm.

Eh. One's morals are a huge part of who they are, and there's definitely a precipitous fall into Care/Harm.

There is an emphasis on care/harm, but not to the exclusion or near exclusion of other values. I don't think there is much difference in how much liberals emphasize their respective values in comparison to how the GOP emphasizes its respective values.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Devilry
Posts: 490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 8:03:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 7:58:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:52:31 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:49:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:44:30 PM, Devilry wrote:
Conservatives, then, on other hand, are going to feel Care/Harm too, because it's of most basic moralistic thought that they do; but they're not completely swallowed up by it - that's the kicker. I'd say the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness, really. Though not that the left can't get carried away with itself too (forgetting about Sanctity/Degradation).

I would reject the implication of this, namely, that liberals are "swallowed up" by Care/Harm.

Eh. One's morals are a huge part of who they are, and there's definitely a precipitous fall into Care/Harm.

There is an emphasis on care/harm, but not to the exclusion or near exclusion of other values. I don't think there is much difference in how much liberals emphasize their respective values in comparison to how the GOP emphasizes its respective values.

No, but some of those values are completely contrary to Care/Harm (Fairness/Cheating, Sanctity/Degradation) and others are more in the vein of selfishness and so mostly forgotten about too (Loyalty/Betrayal, ie., building yourself a standing army). Again, the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness. But a conservative is always going to feel your calling them a bastard.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 8:04:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 8:03:06 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:58:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:52:31 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:49:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:44:30 PM, Devilry wrote:
Conservatives, then, on other hand, are going to feel Care/Harm too, because it's of most basic moralistic thought that they do; but they're not completely swallowed up by it - that's the kicker. I'd say the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness, really. Though not that the left can't get carried away with itself too (forgetting about Sanctity/Degradation).

I would reject the implication of this, namely, that liberals are "swallowed up" by Care/Harm.

Eh. One's morals are a huge part of who they are, and there's definitely a precipitous fall into Care/Harm.

There is an emphasis on care/harm, but not to the exclusion or near exclusion of other values. I don't think there is much difference in how much liberals emphasize their respective values in comparison to how the GOP emphasizes its respective values.

No, but some of those values are completely contrary to Care/Harm (Fairness/Cheating, Sanctity/Degradation) and others are more in the vein of selfishness and so mostly forgotten about too (Loyalty/Betrayal, ie., building yourself a standing army).

I don't think these values necessarily contradict. I, as a liberal, for instance, can want to help the vulnerable but avoid gross abuses in the welfare system at the same time.

Again, the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness.

I disagree, but I am not going to debate it here.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Devilry
Posts: 490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 8:05:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 8:04:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:03:06 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:58:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:52:31 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:49:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:44:30 PM, Devilry wrote:
Conservatives, then, on other hand, are going to feel Care/Harm too, because it's of most basic moralistic thought that they do; but they're not completely swallowed up by it - that's the kicker. I'd say the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness, really. Though not that the left can't get carried away with itself too (forgetting about Sanctity/Degradation).

I would reject the implication of this, namely, that liberals are "swallowed up" by Care/Harm.

Eh. One's morals are a huge part of who they are, and there's definitely a precipitous fall into Care/Harm.

There is an emphasis on care/harm, but not to the exclusion or near exclusion of other values. I don't think there is much difference in how much liberals emphasize their respective values in comparison to how the GOP emphasizes its respective values.

No, but some of those values are completely contrary to Care/Harm (Fairness/Cheating, Sanctity/Degradation) and others are more in the vein of selfishness and so mostly forgotten about too (Loyalty/Betrayal, ie., building yourself a standing army).

I don't think these values necessarily contradict. I, as a liberal, for instance, can want to help the vulnerable but avoid gross abuses in the welfare system at the same time.

Which is sensible selfishness.

Again, the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness.

I disagree, but I am not going to debate it here.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 8:08:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 8:05:58 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:04:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:03:06 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:58:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:52:31 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:49:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:44:30 PM, Devilry wrote:
Conservatives, then, on other hand, are going to feel Care/Harm too, because it's of most basic moralistic thought that they do; but they're not completely swallowed up by it - that's the kicker. I'd say the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness, really. Though not that the left can't get carried away with itself too (forgetting about Sanctity/Degradation).

I would reject the implication of this, namely, that liberals are "swallowed up" by Care/Harm.

Eh. One's morals are a huge part of who they are, and there's definitely a precipitous fall into Care/Harm.

There is an emphasis on care/harm, but not to the exclusion or near exclusion of other values. I don't think there is much difference in how much liberals emphasize their respective values in comparison to how the GOP emphasizes its respective values.

No, but some of those values are completely contrary to Care/Harm (Fairness/Cheating, Sanctity/Degradation) and others are more in the vein of selfishness and so mostly forgotten about too (Loyalty/Betrayal, ie., building yourself a standing army).

I don't think these values necessarily contradict. I, as a liberal, for instance, can want to help the vulnerable but avoid gross abuses in the welfare system at the same time.

Which is sensible selfishness.

Not really. I want to avoid waste so we can more efficiently help people. Ultimately, the debate between egoism and altruism is irresolvable because what one person attributes to altruism another will attribute to egoism, and both explanations are reasonable and neither has definitive proof in its favor.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 8:33:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 3:33:49 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Meh. To say that these are mutually exclusive to the parties closes the mind to certain ideas too much.

If conservatives are more about fairness than care, then it feeds a notion that somehow liberals can't be fair. There's no rule regarding this - the parties don't decide moralist among the voters, the individual does. I'm, for example, against the idea of affirmative action in schools and the workplace out of an idea of merit. But, I subscribe more to the views of Democrats. It's not an exception, though: because there's no rule.

It's just an observation of current moral paradigms. It's not any sort of 'hard' definition of the left and the right; the left in the US used to be MUCH more pragmatic. Politics shift, and this is just the picture as it stands in the US at present.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,107
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 8:41:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 8:33:36 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:33:49 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Meh. To say that these are mutually exclusive to the parties closes the mind to certain ideas too much.

If conservatives are more about fairness than care, then it feeds a notion that somehow liberals can't be fair. There's no rule regarding this - the parties don't decide moralist among the voters, the individual does. I'm, for example, against the idea of affirmative action in schools and the workplace out of an idea of merit. But, I subscribe more to the views of Democrats. It's not an exception, though: because there's no rule.

It's just an observation of current moral paradigms. It's not any sort of 'hard' definition of the left and the right; the left in the US used to be MUCH more pragmatic. Politics shift, and this is just the picture as it stands in the US at present.

I think that parties are generally a negative part of politics. They make people lazy in their voting and they give rise to supposed divides like this. Right and left, I think, don't give rise to such supposed "divides".
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
Devilry
Posts: 490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 8:44:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 8:08:13 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:05:58 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:04:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:03:06 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:58:54 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:52:31 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:49:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 7:44:30 PM, Devilry wrote:
Conservatives, then, on other hand, are going to feel Care/Harm too, because it's of most basic moralistic thought that they do; but they're not completely swallowed up by it - that's the kicker. I'd say the bigger picture just accounts for corruption/selfishness, really. Though not that the left can't get carried away with itself too (forgetting about Sanctity/Degradation).

I would reject the implication of this, namely, that liberals are "swallowed up" by Care/Harm.

Eh. One's morals are a huge part of who they are, and there's definitely a precipitous fall into Care/Harm.

There is an emphasis on care/harm, but not to the exclusion or near exclusion of other values. I don't think there is much difference in how much liberals emphasize their respective values in comparison to how the GOP emphasizes its respective values.

No, but some of those values are completely contrary to Care/Harm (Fairness/Cheating, Sanctity/Degradation) and others are more in the vein of selfishness and so mostly forgotten about too (Loyalty/Betrayal, ie., building yourself a standing army).

I don't think these values necessarily contradict. I, as a liberal, for instance, can want to help the vulnerable but avoid gross abuses in the welfare system at the same time.

Which is sensible selfishness.

Not really. I want to avoid waste so we can more efficiently help people. Ultimately, the debate between egoism and altruism is irresolvable because what one person attributes to altruism another will attribute to egoism, and both explanations are reasonable and neither has definitive proof in its favor.

Well then that's Fairness/Cheating as a construct of Care/Harm. Fairness/Cheating can exist independently of Care/Harm, though. Sociopaths/psychopaths, for instance, are known to be very insistent on fairness, but only to further their own ends, and simply because they view it as some absolute of society or whatever, something owed to them (that is, exploiting 'fairness' to get more, of course; but you get the idea).
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 8:45:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 8:08:13 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:05:58 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:04:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:

I don't think these values necessarily contradict. I, as a liberal, for instance, can want to help the vulnerable but avoid gross abuses in the welfare system at the same time.

Which is sensible selfishness.

Not really. I want to avoid waste so we can more efficiently help people. Ultimately, the debate between egoism and altruism is irresolvable because what one person attributes to altruism another will attribute to egoism, and both explanations are reasonable and neither has definitive proof in its favor.

Well, I'd say that there's a big difference in how they prioritize what is valuable. To an altruist, the more 'outside' one's group someone is, the more pure, selfless and 'good' the act of sacrifice for their benefit is, while and egoist tends to take the opposite stance: that one should help those closest to oneself first.

You're also way more pragmatic than most leftists. Pragmatists in either party are rare, but Varrack was right when he pointed out that those on the right (outside the weird anti-Communist clique) see the liberals as misguided, while those on the left tend to see the right as evil. There's a lack of clarity, driven in part by the conservative's inability to adequately express their ideas (due to the remarkably diligent purge of intelligent people from their ranks) and in part by the liberal side's inability/unwillingness to see the other side of the issue. It's also why liberals tend to win in American politics: the right has rendered itself insular and dumb through a series of farcical witch-hunts, and so is not understood outside of its echo chamber. Ironically, the progressive wing of the left seems to be doing the same thing, so we may end up with parity in the form of two insane, insular, and incommunicable ideologies perpetually spewing venom at one another while the country sinks into disrepair.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Sole_Executioner
Posts: 1
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 8:46:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Honestly...from the standpoint of the political group's beliefs in general...Republican is more moral. Republican isn't really moral , especially not in this day and age
Devilry
Posts: 490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 8:49:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Again, I suppose I shouldn't have so quickly lumped Fairness/Cheating in as completely contradictory. There are different shades of Fairness/Cheating, though. Your Fairness/Cheating is still in the moral vein of Care/Harm, bsh1. Wouldn't you agree?
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2015 8:49:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 8:44:13 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:08:13 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Not really. I want to avoid waste so we can more efficiently help people. Ultimately, the debate between egoism and altruism is irresolvable because what one person attributes to altruism another will attribute to egoism, and both explanations are reasonable and neither has definitive proof in its favor.

Well then that's Fairness/Cheating as a construct of Care/Harm. Fairness/Cheating can exist independently of Care/Harm, though.

I think all the values are interrelated to varying degrees.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...