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I was wrong about Hobby Lobby.

LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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10/7/2015 5:37:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I thought they wanted to refuse all contraception. I was wrong. They cover 16 of the Affordable Care Act contraceptives, so people like me need to shut up. I beliueve that contraception is a right, but I support Hobby Lobby.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,320
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10/7/2015 3:40:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 5:37:56 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I thought they wanted to refuse all contraception. I was wrong. They cover 16 of the Affordable Care Act contraceptives, so people like me need to shut up. I beliueve that contraception is a right, but I support Hobby Lobby.

You need to debate the facts.
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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10/7/2015 6:25:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 3:40:58 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 10/7/2015 5:37:56 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I thought they wanted to refuse all contraception. I was wrong. They cover 16 of the Affordable Care Act contraceptives, so people like me need to shut up. I beliueve that contraception is a right, but I support Hobby Lobby.

You need to debate the facts.

There is no need for trolling, I AM debating the facts. I am admitting how I was wrong. You should be happy. :) <3
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 6:31:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 5:37:56 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I thought they wanted to refuse all contraception. I was wrong. They cover 16 of the Affordable Care Act contraceptives, so people like me need to shut up. I beliueve that contraception is a right, but I support Hobby Lobby.

Why should a company that sells yarn have any say in any individuals healthcare options?
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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10/7/2015 6:36:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 6:31:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 5:37:56 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I thought they wanted to refuse all contraception. I was wrong. They cover 16 of the Affordable Care Act contraceptives, so people like me need to shut up. I beliueve that contraception is a right, but I support Hobby Lobby.

Why should a company that sells yarn have any say in any individuals healthcare options?

They cover contraception, just not abortion. What is the problem?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 6:37:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 6:36:43 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 10/7/2015 6:31:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 5:37:56 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I thought they wanted to refuse all contraception. I was wrong. They cover 16 of the Affordable Care Act contraceptives, so people like me need to shut up. I beliueve that contraception is a right, but I support Hobby Lobby.

Why should a company that sells yarn have any say in any individuals healthcare options?

They cover contraception, just not abortion. What is the problem?

Well, I will say again for clarity. Why should a company that sells yarn have ANY say in any individuals healthcare?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 6:41:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Lets say you work for me. I choose a healthcare package FOR YOU that includes coverage for abortion, but not birth.

Too bad for you. I, as head of an IT company, think giving birth is immoral.

Further, I think all opiates are unnecessary. I know nothing about healthcare, but someone told me that, so I find a plan with NO accommodations for any drug in that family.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/7/2015 6:44:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 6:37:54 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 6:36:43 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 10/7/2015 6:31:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 5:37:56 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I thought they wanted to refuse all contraception. I was wrong. They cover 16 of the Affordable Care Act contraceptives, so people like me need to shut up. I beliueve that contraception is a right, but I support Hobby Lobby.

Why should a company that sells yarn have any say in any individuals healthcare options?

They cover contraception, just not abortion. What is the problem?

Well, I will say again for clarity. Why should a company that sells yarn have ANY say in any individuals healthcare?

They shouldn't, and they don't. Anybody working for any company has a right to any healthcare they want, so long as it isn't paid for by a companies insurance program, that doesn't allow it. It would b unethical to force a business to pay for things that violate their moral code.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/7/2015 6:45:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 6:41:06 PM, TBR wrote:
Lets say you work for me. I choose a healthcare package FOR YOU that includes coverage for abortion, but not birth.

Too bad for you. I, as head of an IT company, think giving birth is immoral.

Further, I think all opiates are unnecessary. I know nothing about healthcare, but someone told me that, so I find a plan with NO accommodations for any drug in that family.

I'd say fvck you, I'll get a job somewhere else. They'll be out of business before too long, by giving some other IT company who offers good coverage, a competitive advantage
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 6:45:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
They shouldn't, and they don't. Anybody working for any company has a right to any healthcare they want, so long as it isn't paid for by a companies insurance program, that doesn't allow it. It would b unethical to force a business to pay for things that violate their moral code.

I agree - in part. We have royalty messed up healthcare by attaching to employment. A monumental screw-up.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/7/2015 6:47:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 6:45:58 PM, TBR wrote:
They shouldn't, and they don't. Anybody working for any company has a right to any healthcare they want, so long as it isn't paid for by a companies insurance program, that doesn't allow it. It would b unethical to force a business to pay for things that violate their moral code.

I agree - in part. We have royalty messed up healthcare by attaching to employment. A monumental screw-up.

Well, blame FDR. He put a wage cap on businesses, and benefits were their way of getting around it.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 7:03:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Well, blame FDR. He put a wage cap on businesses, and benefits were their way of getting around it.

Yup. Well, blame may be the wrong word, but the events and unintended consequences is right.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/7/2015 7:46:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 7:03:18 PM, TBR wrote:
Well, blame FDR. He put a wage cap on businesses, and benefits were their way of getting around it.

Yup. Well, blame may be the wrong word, but the events and unintended consequences is right.

Well, everybody for the most part has the best of intentions.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 7:51:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 7:46:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/7/2015 7:03:18 PM, TBR wrote:
Well, blame FDR. He put a wage cap on businesses, and benefits were their way of getting around it.

Yup. Well, blame may be the wrong word, but the events and unintended consequences is right.

Well, everybody for the most part has the best of intentions.

Again, agreed. Now since it is what we are stuck with untill single-payer.... The company IS NOT buying the insurance. It is a part of compensation (as you alluded to). It should not be the place of expert knitters what to include and exclude from a healthcare plan.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/7/2015 7:53:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 7:51:28 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 7:46:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/7/2015 7:03:18 PM, TBR wrote:
Well, blame FDR. He put a wage cap on businesses, and benefits were their way of getting around it.

Yup. Well, blame may be the wrong word, but the events and unintended consequences is right.

Well, everybody for the most part has the best of intentions.

Again, agreed. Now since it is what we are stuck with untill single-payer.... The company IS NOT buying the insurance. It is a part of compensation (as you alluded to). It should not be the place of expert knitters what to include and exclude from a healthcare plan.

Well I disagree. You're voluntarily entering into a contract with an employer. If you don't want an employer who does that, you can simply choose another employer
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 7:57:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Well I disagree. You're voluntarily entering into a contract with an employer. If you don't want an employer who does that, you can simply choose another employer

I understand and respect this argument, however, if the government mandates employers offer insurance to employees, then you are no longer operating in the same environment. Once the government has made the condition (applied to the employer) they are not entitled to make medical decisions for the employee.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/7/2015 8:00:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 7:57:44 PM, TBR wrote:
Well I disagree. You're voluntarily entering into a contract with an employer. If you don't want an employer who does that, you can simply choose another employer

I understand and respect this argument, however, if the government mandates employers offer insurance to employees, then you are no longer operating in the same environment. Once the government has made the condition (applied to the employer) they are not entitled to make medical decisions for the employee.

Yes, I don't agree with government mandating that, but given the mandate and the small number of competitors due to over regulation, restrictions on employers and insurance companies in that environment, is probably appropriate
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,394
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10/7/2015 10:06:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I never had been inside a hobby lobby. During the controversy , I went in to buy sometning to show support. They have alll this great stuff in there, its not just a yarn store!
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 10:16:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 10:06:10 PM, xus00HAY wrote:
I never had been inside a hobby lobby. During the controversy , I went in to buy sometning to show support. They have alll this great stuff in there, its not just a yarn store!

I'm sure they have plenty of fine Chinese made merchandise. You know, the NOT supporting abortion thing only is importation for good Christian Americans.
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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10/7/2015 10:27:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 6:37:54 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 6:36:43 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 10/7/2015 6:31:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 5:37:56 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I thought they wanted to refuse all contraception. I was wrong. They cover 16 of the Affordable Care Act contraceptives, so people like me need to shut up. I beliueve that contraception is a right, but I support Hobby Lobby.

Why should a company that sells yarn have any say in any individuals healthcare options?

They cover contraception, just not abortion. What is the problem?

Well, I will say again for clarity. Why should a company that sells yarn have ANY say in any individuals healthcare?
I will say it again: Hobby Lobby covers 16 methods of contraception. What is not covered is abortifacient drugs and proceedures.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 10:29:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why should a company that sells yarn have any say in any individuals healthcare options?

They cover contraception, just not abortion. What is the problem?

Well, I will say again for clarity. Why should a company that sells yarn have ANY say in any individuals healthcare?
I will say it again: Hobby Lobby covers 16 methods of contraception. What is not covered is abortifacient drugs and proceedures.

Right. That is exactly true. Why dodged the question I have? What do corporate sellers of fabric have to do with medical decisions? What if I hired you and provided a plan that covered abortion, but not birth?
Skynet
Posts: 674
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10/7/2015 10:35:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 7:51:28 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 7:46:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/7/2015 7:03:18 PM, TBR wrote:
Well, blame FDR. He put a wage cap on businesses, and benefits were their way of getting around it.

Yup. Well, blame may be the wrong word, but the events and unintended consequences is right.

Well, everybody for the most part has the best of intentions.

Again, agreed. Now since it is what we are stuck with untill single-payer.... The company IS NOT buying the insurance. It is a part of compensation (as you alluded to). It should not be the place of expert knitters what to include and exclude from a healthcare plan.

You're going to far from the central issue. Abortion is the murder of children. They don't want to participate in the bloodshed.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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10/7/2015 11:10:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 6:31:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 5:37:56 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I thought they wanted to refuse all contraception. I was wrong. They cover 16 of the Affordable Care Act contraceptives, so people like me need to shut up. I beliueve that contraception is a right, but I support Hobby Lobby.

Why should a company that sells yarn have any say in any individuals healthcare options?

because they're paying for it...
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 11:12:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You're going to far from the central issue. Abortion is the murder of children. They don't want to participate in the bloodshed.

I'm am not. That is an opinion you have, but others don't share. What business does a corporation have in the medical decisions of an employee?

I will again use my example. I have an IT company. Employees having babies costs me MORE. Lost of productivity, and the birth is a he11 of lot more expensive than abortion. I choose to provide a plan with access to abortion, but not birth. That, according to the supporters of Hobby Lobby is OK, right?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 11:15:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 11:10:04 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 10/7/2015 6:31:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 5:37:56 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I thought they wanted to refuse all contraception. I was wrong. They cover 16 of the Affordable Care Act contraceptives, so people like me need to shut up. I beliueve that contraception is a right, but I support Hobby Lobby.

Why should a company that sells yarn have any say in any individuals healthcare options?

because they're paying for it...

But they are NOT. It is part of compensation.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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10/7/2015 11:19:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 11:15:02 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 11:10:04 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 10/7/2015 6:31:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/7/2015 5:37:56 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I thought they wanted to refuse all contraception. I was wrong. They cover 16 of the Affordable Care Act contraceptives, so people like me need to shut up. I beliueve that contraception is a right, but I support Hobby Lobby.

Why should a company that sells yarn have any say in any individuals healthcare options?

because they're paying for it...

But they are NOT. It is part of compensation.

I think you're confused. You health plan, like your salary and your 401k, is all part of your compensation for working at a company like Hobby Lobby. They pay for all of that, including the health plan. Therefore, they have the right to offer you 5k less in salary, they have the right to offer you a lower matching percentage for your 401k, and they have the right to offer you a plan that includes or doesn't include birth control (or acupuncture, plastic surgery, vision, dental, etc).

You as an individual have every right to purchase your own health coverage that covers whatever the heck you want, or to apply at a company that offers a plan you like better.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/7/2015 11:23:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think you're confused. You health plan, like your salary and your 401k, is all part of your compensation for working at a company like Hobby Lobby. They pay for all of that, including the health plan. Therefore, they have the right to offer you 5k less in salary, they have the right to offer you a lower matching percentage for your 401k, and they have the right to offer you a plan that includes or doesn't include birth control (or acupuncture, plastic surgery, vision, dental, etc).

You as an individual have every right to purchase your own health coverage that covers whatever the heck you want, or to apply at a company that offers a plan you like better.

No, you are confused. You are right about it being part of your salary. They have given ME the compensation for my work. It is my business how I use that, including the healthcare, right?
Skynet
Posts: 674
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10/7/2015 11:24:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 11:12:33 PM, TBR wrote:
You're going to far from the central issue. Abortion is the murder of children. They don't want to participate in the bloodshed.

I'm am not. That is an opinion you have, but others don't share. What business does a corporation have in the medical decisions of an employee?

I will again use my example. I have an IT company. Employees having babies costs me MORE. Lost of productivity, and the birth is a he11 of lot more expensive than abortion. I choose to provide a plan with access to abortion, but not birth. That, according to the supporters of Hobby Lobby is OK, right?

You are going too far from the central issue. Hobby Lobby's decision has nothing to do with costs. It has everything to do with abortion. They believe abortion is murder. They want no part of it. The IT company's "morals" are totally focused on saving money at the expense of a baby's life. Hobby Lobby simply wants no part in murdering babies.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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10/7/2015 11:26:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 11:23:42 PM, TBR wrote:
I think you're confused. You health plan, like your salary and your 401k, is all part of your compensation for working at a company like Hobby Lobby. They pay for all of that, including the health plan. Therefore, they have the right to offer you 5k less in salary, they have the right to offer you a lower matching percentage for your 401k, and they have the right to offer you a plan that includes or doesn't include birth control (or acupuncture, plastic surgery, vision, dental, etc).

You as an individual have every right to purchase your own health coverage that covers whatever the heck you want, or to apply at a company that offers a plan you like better.

No, you are confused. You are right about it being part of your salary. They have given ME the compensation for my work. It is my business how I use that, including the healthcare, right?

Yes, and the contract you sign gives you the right to the company provided healthcare. Not any healthcare plan in the world. They have the right to offer whatever plan they want. If you don't like it, buy a different plan with the money they gave you as your salary.