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The Constitution and Public School

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/17/2010 5:44:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
If it's public property then wouldn't be unconstitutional to put limits in free-speech and other such constitutional rights on the students?
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fnord
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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9/17/2010 7:23:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 5:44:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If it's public property then wouldn't be unconstitutional to put limits in free-speech and other such constitutional rights on the students?

The same logic applies to courts. You can't have a full out protest in a court as it would hamper the purpose of the institution. However, rights should not be restricted arbitrarily, and simple expression of thought should not be punished especially since the purpose of the institution is to learn.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/17/2010 8:27:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 7:53:27 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
what limits are you referring to?

A student is not aloud to say anything the teacher says they can't. It's tyranny.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/17/2010 8:28:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 8:27:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/17/2010 7:53:27 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
what limits are you referring to?

A student is not aloud to say anything the teacher says they can't. It's tyranny.

Not really. School is a public place so there's a certain conduct that should be followed.
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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9/17/2010 8:32:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 8:27:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:

A student is not aloud to say anything the teacher says they can't.

This is not really true. The teacher can limit types of speech, but they cannot limit specific speech. For example, they can limit speech that is disruptive to the class, but they could never say that you couldn't discuss creationism in a biology class, assuming there was time to allow it was done in a civil and non-disruptive way.
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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9/17/2010 8:35:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Not really. School is a public place so there's a certain conduct that should be followed.

This is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. The Constitution guarantees you the right to do plenty of things that you probably shouldn't do in public.
MikeLoviN
Posts: 746
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9/17/2010 8:40:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 8:32:49 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
At 9/17/2010 8:27:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:

A student is not aloud to say anything the teacher says they can't.

This is not really true. The teacher can limit types of speech, but they cannot limit specific speech. For example, they can limit speech that is disruptive to the class, but they could never say that you couldn't discuss creationism in a biology class, assuming there was time to allow it was done in a civil and non-disruptive way.

What he said.

The issue 9.9 times out of 10 is that it isn't allowed because the teacher has deemed it to be disruptive to the class, in which case you would be infringing on the rights of the other students (which is not protected by the constitution as far as I know).
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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9/17/2010 8:41:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 8:36:29 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Frederick v. Morse.

I hope you don't actually accept that reasoning.

Bethel v. Fraser.

Not as bad, but still pretty bad.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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9/17/2010 9:15:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 8:41:47 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
At 9/17/2010 8:36:29 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Frederick v. Morse.

I hope you don't actually accept that reasoning.

Bethel v. Fraser.

Not as bad, but still pretty bad.

I'm telling him what the status quo is. Whether I agree with it is immaterial; however, I do not.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/17/2010 9:39:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 8:27:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/17/2010 7:53:27 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
what limits are you referring to?

A student is not aloud to say anything the teacher says they can't. It's tyranny.

Exactly. It should be up to the student to determine what and when talk about.

An example of how its not just "its disruptive" I and a few other students in history class got into a bit of an arguement over the first amendment. I said its freedom to believe in any or no religion so long as it causes no harm to other parties. They ALL countered "no its the freedom to believe any CHRISTIAN religion. Others aren't/shouldn't be allowed"

The teacher told us to stop talking. less than 5 m later he was in a conversation about last nights football game with a few of the students. Both are disruptive, but one is actually infitive of something that pertains to something we were learning about.
It all has to do with what the teacher feels like hearing. In my creative writing class it was practically debate. Anything from homosexual morality/marriage, to rapping contests/famous rappers/mainstream rap vs underground rap, best hair color, best names. The teacher had no problem.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
belle
Posts: 4,113
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9/17/2010 9:46:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 9:39:59 PM, lovelife wrote:
Exactly. It should be up to the student to determine what and when talk about.

sorry, but that's total crap. the fact is, parents put their kids in school to learn what the school authorities think they need to know, and in a roundabout sort of way they pay for it. allowing the students to run things doesn't lead to more knowledge gained by the students, it simply leads to more time wasted. in the same way, if you work at the dmv, they can bar you from behaving in ways that they find offensive even though they're a public agency.

also i don't think children are generally accorded the full rights of adults, and i think this is probably a good thing.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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9/17/2010 9:48:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 9:39:59 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 9/17/2010 8:27:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/17/2010 7:53:27 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
what limits are you referring to?

A student is not aloud to say anything the teacher says they can't. It's tyranny.

Exactly. It should be up to the student to determine what and when talk about.

An example of how its not just "its disruptive" I and a few other students in history class got into a bit of an arguement over the first amendment. I said its freedom to believe in any or no religion so long as it causes no harm to other parties. They ALL countered "no its the freedom to believe any CHRISTIAN religion. Others aren't/shouldn't be allowed"

The teacher told us to stop talking. less than 5 m later he was in a conversation about last nights football game with a few of the students. Both are disruptive, but one is actually infitive of something that pertains to something we were learning about.
It all has to do with what the teacher feels like hearing. In my creative writing class it was practically debate. Anything from homosexual morality/marriage, to rapping contests/famous rappers/mainstream rap vs underground rap, best hair color, best names. The teacher had no problem.

Did you try taking any action or talking to an administrator? You must keep in mind that such action would likely irk the teacher to the point where no disruptions would be allowed at all. However, the injustice would be ended.

I'm also assuming that you're being 100% honest and everything happened exactly as described, and that this was a recurrent issue.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/17/2010 10:16:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 9:46:36 PM, belle wrote:
At 9/17/2010 9:39:59 PM, lovelife wrote:
Exactly. It should be up to the student to determine what and when talk about.

sorry, but that's total crap. the fact is, parents put their kids in school to learn what the school authorities think they need to know, and in a roundabout sort of way they pay for it. allowing the students to run things doesn't lead to more knowledge gained by the students, it simply leads to more time wasted. in the same way, if you work at the dmv, they can bar you from behaving in ways that they find offensive even though they're a public agency.


Nah the kids are forced into the school. They did nothing to oose it. People learn more from being involved, especially in debates and such. <which is why the second teacher allowed us to debate in class, even the pointless ones she s helps, she even got involved lol> Ultimately the student passes or fails the class and later in life from their decisions. I'm sure many would decide to be like me in class and just pay attention <unless there is a class sized debate about something they are close to or believe in> the ones that don't fail. Its better at teaching them life skills.

also i don't think children are generally accorded the full rights of adults, and i think this is probably a good thing.

To a point I agree. But that is a pretty small point.

Did you try taking any action or talking to an administrator? You must keep in mind that such action would likely irk the teacher to the point where no disruptions would be allowed at all. However, the injustice would be ended.

No I did not. What would I report? The admin were prolly sick of me <if your talking about the first teacher> cause my mom reported a lot of sh!t that happened in that school.

I'm also assuming that you're being 100% honest and everything happened exactly as described, and that this was a recurrent issue.

I am. 8th grade US history Idabel Middle school. I believe the teacher's name was Mr. Trent.
Second was 9th grade creative writing DCHS Mrs. Davidson.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/17/2010 10:19:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 9:39:59 PM, lovelife wrote:

An example of how its not just "its disruptive" I and a few other students in history class got into a bit of an arguement over the first amendment. I said its freedom to believe in any or no religion so long as it causes no harm to other parties. They ALL countered "no its the freedom to believe any CHRISTIAN religion. Others aren't/shouldn't be allowed"

Yea, that's absurd. I have seen that argument too before. It clearly means the freedom to believe in ANY religion. The irony is that apparently many of the american founding fathers were deist.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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9/17/2010 10:22:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 10:16:15 PM, lovelife wrote:
Nah the kids are forced into the school. They did nothing to oose it. People learn more from being involved, especially in debates and such. <which is why the second teacher allowed us to debate in class, even the pointless ones she s helps, she even got involved lol> Ultimately the student passes or fails the class and later in life from their decisions. I'm sure many would decide to be like me in class and just pay attention <unless there is a class sized debate about something they are close to or believe in> the ones that don't fail. Its better at teaching them life skills.

the parents make the agreement for them. one of those rights the child doesn't have yet. 18 is probably too old, but you really can't expect children to know whats good for them, or to realize what a huge handicap lacking an education would entail.

i'm all for freedom but its wasted on those without the capacity to reason....
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/17/2010 10:38:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 10:22:09 PM, belle wrote:
At 9/17/2010 10:16:15 PM, lovelife wrote:
Nah the kids are forced into the school. They did nothing to oose it. People learn more from being involved, especially in debates and such. <which is why the second teacher allowed us to debate in class, even the pointless ones she s helps, she even got involved lol> Ultimately the student passes or fails the class and later in life from their decisions. I'm sure many would decide to be like me in class and just pay attention <unless there is a class sized debate about something they are close to or believe in> the ones that don't fail. Its better at teaching them life skills.

the parents make the agreement for them. one of those rights the child doesn't have yet. 18 is probably too old, but you really can't expect children to know whats good for them, or to realize what a huge handicap lacking an education would entail.

i'm all for freedom but its wasted on those without the capacity to reason....

nah I think education is wasted on the immature. If you have no interest in learning you wont, and will most likely rob others. I've heard teachers say that if you can't act properly, or have no interest in learning to GTFO of the class so others who are interested can learn. But its not a legal option, and it should be. Many of my teachers agree to that and even helped me shape this opinion. It sld be maturity based and not age based.
Children ought to be cared for until they are self sestaining, not a certain age. If parents don't want them then there should be shelters, adoption agencies etc to care for the child. If the cd doesn't wish to be in any they can take care of themselves or starve. Jobs ought to be based on skill ability, and knowlage, without age being an issue, education should be the same.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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9/18/2010 1:15:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
it is problematic that schools are both mandatory and authoritative... I agree children have a natural need for authority but parents don't. the question is at what point does the parent's rights become violated by the state running the educational system. under our current system one must be pretty solid middle class before considering private or home schooling, as both routes are much more expensive and provide barriers to choice, and without a real choice to bypass the public option we put too much power into the school system. IOWs, if choice were more abundant schools couldnt afford to be filled with prick teachers and rigid policies that piss everyone off.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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9/18/2010 1:52:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 8:27:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/17/2010 7:53:27 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
what limits are you referring to?

A student is not aloud to say anything the teacher says they can't. It's tyranny.

Yeah...no. This is very much incorrect. I know it's been said, but this is incorrect.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/18/2010 9:59:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 1:52:36 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 9/17/2010 8:27:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/17/2010 7:53:27 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
what limits are you referring to?

A student is not aloud to say anything the teacher says they can't. It's tyranny.

Yeah...no. This is very much incorrect. I know it's been said, but this is incorrect.

In what way?
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/18/2010 10:09:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Students choose the classes they want to take. problem solved, they have a choice of what classes they want to take and thus what they must be 'forced' to listen to.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/18/2010 11:32:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 10:09:20 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Students choose the classes they want to take. problem solved, they have a choice of what classes they want to take and thus what they must be 'forced' to listen to.

Not true. At younger ages they only have one class and no real choice in who and how the teacher is. In higher grades they must take certain amounts. In oklahoma 4 math classes <recently changed to you must take a math course every year of high school, pisses me off cause I got 3 years ahead in math>
English every year, 3 years of social studies, Oklahoma history is a must, same with geography, American history and/or European history. 4 years of science, 3 electives. Credits must equal at least 23 and students must be taking classes every school hour.

Every class must be taken in order and there tends to be one teacher per subject.
<example with math you must go Alegbra I, Algebra II, Geometry, Trig, Calc, Algebra III, College Level Advanced Match [that I'm not even sure what the f-ck they cover], science goes Biology [must take in 9th grade], physical science, Biology II, Chemestry, [then some kind of biocem mix with forensic science]>
There isn't really any option. Min age for drop out is 16.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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9/18/2010 11:51:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Here's what my teachers say when we claim, "You're suppressing, you @ssholes." During the day, the parents make their children go to school, right? When the students enter the school, they are now under the protection of the school. And the school must enforce rules and regulations to protect all students. They might have to limit freedom of speech. But the students have not lost all their rights. They cannot be forced to do a lot of things on campus.

But the schools can search your lockers at any time, since it's school property. They might limit your freedom of expression so you do not offend anyone else. They will limit freedom of press to, once again, protect the students. It's called "loco parentis". They get to make the rules....

Do I agree with it? Not really. But I do realize without regulations on school grounds, I might be forced to do stuff I hate even more. Really, just suck it up.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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9/18/2010 3:56:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 5:44:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
If it's public property then wouldn't be unconstitutional to put limits in free-speech and other such constitutional rights on the students?:

Yes
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/19/2010 11:02:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 10:22:09 PM, belle wrote:
i'm all for freedom but its wasted on those without the capacity to reason....

Ah, finally! The meat and potatoes of why libertarianism fails ;)
President of DDO
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/19/2010 11:05:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 11:02:17 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/17/2010 10:22:09 PM, belle wrote:
i'm all for freedom but its wasted on those without the capacity to reason....

Ah, finally! The meat and potatoes of why libertarianism fails ;)

Indeed. What kind of freedom is a freedom that exists except for those that may not be the best cookies in the jar? I find libertarians are more elitist than liberals ever end up being.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/19/2010 11:05:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/18/2010 11:32:23 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 9/18/2010 10:09:20 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Students choose the classes they want to take. problem solved, they have a choice of what classes they want to take and thus what they must be 'forced' to listen to.

Not true. At younger ages they only have one class and no real choice in who and how the teacher is. In higher grades they must take certain amounts. In oklahoma 4 math classes <recently changed to you must take a math course every year of high school, pisses me off cause I got 3 years ahead in math>
English every year, 3 years of social studies, Oklahoma history is a must, same with geography, American history and/or European history. 4 years of science, 3 electives. Credits must equal at least 23 and students must be taking classes every school hour.

Every class must be taken in order and there tends to be one teacher per subject.
<example with math you must go Alegbra I, Algebra II, Geometry, Trig, Calc, Algebra III, College Level Advanced Match [that I'm not even sure what the f-ck they cover], science goes Biology [must take in 9th grade], physical science, Biology II, Chemestry, [then some kind of biocem mix with forensic science]>
There isn't really any option. Min age for drop out is 16.

I don't want your lifestory or how the Oklahoman schooling system works, that's my solution, not stating what the status quo is.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
I-am-a-panda
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9/19/2010 11:07:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 11:05:01 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/19/2010 11:02:17 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/17/2010 10:22:09 PM, belle wrote:
i'm all for freedom but its wasted on those without the capacity to reason....

Ah, finally! The meat and potatoes of why libertarianism fails ;)

Indeed. What kind of freedom is a freedom that exists except for those that may not be the best cookies in the jar? I find libertarians are more elitist than liberals ever end up being.

Yes, how dare people have freedom, let's put freedom in the hands of a few capable people who can decide what freedoms are necessary or not, that will work, right!?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.