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Edward Snowden, hero or traitor?

beng100
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10/9/2015 9:11:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In my view the answer is both. He is a hero for revealing the full extent of NSA spying and the extreme methods used by intelligence agencies worldwide, while he is a traitor for revealing these same things as it allows criminals including terrorists to avoid surveillance and possibly commit atrocities and crimes that would otherwise be intercepted. Whether Snowden was right to do what he did is an interesting dilemma. There are clear pros and cons but on the whole I would say his actions have been a positive thing.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/9/2015 9:25:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 9:11:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
In my view the answer is both. He is a hero for revealing the full extent of NSA spying and the extreme methods used by intelligence agencies worldwide, while he is a traitor for revealing these same things as it allows criminals including terrorists to avoid surveillance and possibly commit atrocities and crimes that would otherwise be intercepted. Whether Snowden was right to do what he did is an interesting dilemma. There are clear pros and cons but on the whole I would say his actions have been a positive thing.

Yea, its both.
TBR
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10/9/2015 10:23:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 10:05:37 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
He was a complete hero, there was nothing wrong with what he did.

Look. When in IT or any field where you are given access to a bunch of cool data, you must take that trust seriously. There are ways to "out" bad practices without releasing data the way he did.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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10/9/2015 11:35:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 9:11:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
In my view the answer is both. He is a hero for revealing the full extent of NSA spying and the extreme methods used by intelligence agencies worldwide, while he is a traitor for revealing these same things as it allows criminals including terrorists to avoid surveillance and possibly commit atrocities and crimes that would otherwise be intercepted. Whether Snowden was right to do what he did is an interesting dilemma. There are clear pros and cons but on the whole I would say his actions have been a positive thing.

Ya, It's not a black or white thing. There is a reason why these guy's aren't allowed to reveal this information. it's not just because they want to keep their dirty work from public site, but also that criminals and terrorists are now given a heads up.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/9/2015 11:42:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:35:47 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/9/2015 9:11:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
In my view the answer is both. He is a hero for revealing the full extent of NSA spying and the extreme methods used by intelligence agencies worldwide, while he is a traitor for revealing these same things as it allows criminals including terrorists to avoid surveillance and possibly commit atrocities and crimes that would otherwise be intercepted. Whether Snowden was right to do what he did is an interesting dilemma. There are clear pros and cons but on the whole I would say his actions have been a positive thing.

Ya, It's not a black or white thing. There is a reason why these guy's aren't allowed to reveal this information. it's not just because they want to keep their dirty work from public site, but also that criminals and terrorists are now given a heads up.

If average citizens weren't considered criminals and terrorists, I might agree with you here.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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10/9/2015 11:44:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:42:26 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:35:47 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/9/2015 9:11:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
In my view the answer is both. He is a hero for revealing the full extent of NSA spying and the extreme methods used by intelligence agencies worldwide, while he is a traitor for revealing these same things as it allows criminals including terrorists to avoid surveillance and possibly commit atrocities and crimes that would otherwise be intercepted. Whether Snowden was right to do what he did is an interesting dilemma. There are clear pros and cons but on the whole I would say his actions have been a positive thing.

Ya, It's not a black or white thing. There is a reason why these guy's aren't allowed to reveal this information. it's not just because they want to keep their dirty work from public site, but also that criminals and terrorists are now given a heads up.

If average citizens weren't considered criminals and terrorists, I might agree with you here.

We live in a Post 9/11 world now. It's a lot more prevalent than you think.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/9/2015 11:50:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"We live in a Post 9/11 world now. It's a lot more prevalent than you think."

Well 99% of it is blowback. All America has to do is take on a non interventionist foreign policy and it all ends. I think it's absurd that we know for a fact that 9/11 was caused by blowback, and America's response to 9/11 was a combination of destroying the freedoms of Aneruca and sending troops over seas to create more blowback.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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10/9/2015 11:51:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:50:10 PM, Wylted wrote:
"We live in a Post 9/11 world now. It's a lot more prevalent than you think."

Well 99% of it is blowback. All America has to do is take on a non interventionist foreign policy and it all ends. I think it's absurd that we know for a fact that 9/11 was caused by blowback, and America's response to 9/11 was a combination of destroying the freedoms of Aneruca and sending troops over seas to create more blowback.

I don't really think the problem will be solved with non-interventionism anymore. This should have happened at least a decade ago, now it is too late. If we do nothing now, we are will be allowing terrorists to become even more powerful, and when they actually become a threat to us, we will need to put more effort into fighting them.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/9/2015 11:55:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:51:57 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:50:10 PM, Wylted wrote:
"We live in a Post 9/11 world now. It's a lot more prevalent than you think."

Well 99% of it is blowback. All America has to do is take on a non interventionist foreign policy and it all ends. I think it's absurd that we know for a fact that 9/11 was caused by blowback, and America's response to 9/11 was a combination of destroying the freedoms of Aneruca and sending troops over seas to create more blowback.

I don't really think the problem will be solved with non-interventionism anymore. This should have happened at least a decade ago, now it is too late. If we do nothing now, we are will be allowing terrorists to become even more powerful, and when they actually become a threat to us, we will need to put more effort into fighting them.

They actually pop up as a result of American intervention though. Al Queda was basically created and trained by Special Ops and the CIA. So without intervention they don't exist, and even if they grow more powerful now, they have no reason to attack us, because we're not intervening in their affairs anyway
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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10/9/2015 11:56:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Great. I post a long and detailed thread about the ineffectiveness of US policy in the Middle East and it gets called "outdated" or ignored completely. But this legitimately outdated thread is already sparking.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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10/10/2015 12:22:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:55:05 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:51:57 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:50:10 PM, Wylted wrote:
"We live in a Post 9/11 world now. It's a lot more prevalent than you think."

Well 99% of it is blowback. All America has to do is take on a non interventionist foreign policy and it all ends. I think it's absurd that we know for a fact that 9/11 was caused by blowback, and America's response to 9/11 was a combination of destroying the freedoms of Aneruca and sending troops over seas to create more blowback.

I don't really think the problem will be solved with non-interventionism anymore. This should have happened at least a decade ago, now it is too late. If we do nothing now, we are will be allowing terrorists to become even more powerful, and when they actually become a threat to us, we will need to put more effort into fighting them.

They actually pop up as a result of American intervention though. Al Queda was basically created and trained by Special Ops and the CIA. So without intervention they don't exist, and even if they grow more powerful now, they have no reason to attack us, because we're not intervening in their affairs anyway

"they have no reason to attack us" That's what we would like to think, but the terrorists aren't the most sane people. They just hate the west, and it's culture. They hate non-muslims basically. I mean, they literally killed 12 people for drawing a cartoon, so I don't think what I'm saying is unreasonable.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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10/10/2015 12:23:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:56:15 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Great. I post a long and detailed thread about the ineffectiveness of US policy in the Middle East and it gets called "outdated" or ignored completely. But this legitimately outdated thread is already sparking.

Wow, I'd be interested in that.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/10/2015 1:05:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:42:26 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:35:47 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/9/2015 9:11:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
In my view the answer is both. He is a hero for revealing the full extent of NSA spying and the extreme methods used by intelligence agencies worldwide, while he is a traitor for revealing these same things as it allows criminals including terrorists to avoid surveillance and possibly commit atrocities and crimes that would otherwise be intercepted. Whether Snowden was right to do what he did is an interesting dilemma. There are clear pros and cons but on the whole I would say his actions have been a positive thing.

Ya, It's not a black or white thing. There is a reason why these guy's aren't allowed to reveal this information. it's not just because they want to keep their dirty work from public site, but also that criminals and terrorists are now given a heads up.

If average citizens weren't considered criminals and terrorists, I might agree with you here.

The cause is fine. He did a great thing in bring this out (although, it was fairly well known even before). The point, the only point is, being responsible for data has conditions. You don't get to steal it no matter what the cause.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/10/2015 1:29:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:05:02 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:42:26 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:35:47 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/9/2015 9:11:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
In my view the answer is both. He is a hero for revealing the full extent of NSA spying and the extreme methods used by intelligence agencies worldwide, while he is a traitor for revealing these same things as it allows criminals including terrorists to avoid surveillance and possibly commit atrocities and crimes that would otherwise be intercepted. Whether Snowden was right to do what he did is an interesting dilemma. There are clear pros and cons but on the whole I would say his actions have been a positive thing.

Ya, It's not a black or white thing. There is a reason why these guy's aren't allowed to reveal this information. it's not just because they want to keep their dirty work from public site, but also that criminals and terrorists are now given a heads up.

If average citizens weren't considered criminals and terrorists, I might agree with you here.

The cause is fine. He did a great thing in bring this out (although, it was fairly well known even before). The point, the only point is, being responsible for data has conditions. You don't get to steal it no matter what the cause.

So the government gets a free pass to steal data, but US citizens aren't?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/10/2015 1:47:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:29:47 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:05:02 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:42:26 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:35:47 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/9/2015 9:11:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
In my view the answer is both. He is a hero for revealing the full extent of NSA spying and the extreme methods used by intelligence agencies worldwide, while he is a traitor for revealing these same things as it allows criminals including terrorists to avoid surveillance and possibly commit atrocities and crimes that would otherwise be intercepted. Whether Snowden was right to do what he did is an interesting dilemma. There are clear pros and cons but on the whole I would say his actions have been a positive thing.

Ya, It's not a black or white thing. There is a reason why these guy's aren't allowed to reveal this information. it's not just because they want to keep their dirty work from public site, but also that criminals and terrorists are now given a heads up.

If average citizens weren't considered criminals and terrorists, I might agree with you here.

The cause is fine. He did a great thing in bring this out (although, it was fairly well known even before). The point, the only point is, being responsible for data has conditions. You don't get to steal it no matter what the cause.

So the government gets a free pass to steal data, but US citizens aren't?

He11 NO. He did a great thing in blowing the whistle (again, it was well known before but...). But he could have gotten the information out in other ways. Regardless, for good or not, you can't compliment him for stealing data that was collected.

Let's say I am Robinhood. Its all good and cool that I give it away, but it's still stealing.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/10/2015 4:00:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 1:47:56 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:29:47 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/10/2015 1:05:02 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:42:26 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/9/2015 11:35:47 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/9/2015 9:11:01 PM, beng100 wrote:
In my view the answer is both. He is a hero for revealing the full extent of NSA spying and the extreme methods used by intelligence agencies worldwide, while he is a traitor for revealing these same things as it allows criminals including terrorists to avoid surveillance and possibly commit atrocities and crimes that would otherwise be intercepted. Whether Snowden was right to do what he did is an interesting dilemma. There are clear pros and cons but on the whole I would say his actions have been a positive thing.

Ya, It's not a black or white thing. There is a reason why these guy's aren't allowed to reveal this information. it's not just because they want to keep their dirty work from public site, but also that criminals and terrorists are now given a heads up.

If average citizens weren't considered criminals and terrorists, I might agree with you here.

The cause is fine. He did a great thing in bring this out (although, it was fairly well known even before). The point, the only point is, being responsible for data has conditions. You don't get to steal it no matter what the cause.

So the government gets a free pass to steal data, but US citizens aren't?

He11 NO. He did a great thing in blowing the whistle (again, it was well known before but...). But he could have gotten the information out in other ways. Regardless, for good or not, you can't compliment him for stealing data that was collected.

Let's say I am Robinhood. Its all good and cool that I give it away, but it's still stealing.

Well Alex Jones was called a conspiracy theorist for saying the government collects this data, before Snowden proved it, and I don't know that it's immoral to steal from a thief.
Midnight1131
Posts: 1,643
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10/10/2015 4:33:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's completely moral to out a gov't for spying on it's own citizens. Nothing wrong with that.
#GaryJohnson2016
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16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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10/10/2015 5:05:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/9/2015 11:56:15 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Great. I post a long and detailed thread about the ineffectiveness of US policy in the Middle East and it gets called "outdated" or ignored completely. But this legitimately outdated thread is already sparking.

Promoting democracy in that region = cancer
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/10/2015 9:34:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 4:33:35 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
It's completely moral to out a gov't for spying on it's own citizens. Nothing wrong with that.

Outing fine. Taking (stealing) data you have been intrusted with safeguarding is as bad as the original issue.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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10/11/2015 12:50:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 9:34:43 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/10/2015 4:33:35 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
It's completely moral to out a gov't for spying on it's own citizens. Nothing wrong with that.

Outing fine. Taking (stealing) data you have been intrusted with safeguarding is as bad as the original issue.

I agree with that. As noble as his intentions were, he did expose a lot of information that probably gave terrorists a heads up. A while back, he told everyone the NSA taps every outgoing call to Pakistan.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/11/2015 1:02:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 12:50:48 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/10/2015 9:34:43 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/10/2015 4:33:35 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
It's completely moral to out a gov't for spying on it's own citizens. Nothing wrong with that.

Outing fine. Taking (stealing) data you have been intrusted with safeguarding is as bad as the original issue.

I agree with that. As noble as his intentions were, he did expose a lot of information that probably gave terrorists a heads up. A while back, he told everyone the NSA taps every outgoing call to Pakistan.

I can't come close to explaining how I feel about this...

Look. I have had access to incredible data my whole life. It is daunting. One thing you need to keep clear is, this is grave responsibility. If your company is doing somthing very wrong or not, the actual data is about OTHER people. This data is... well, it is lifes. Real life's. This guy, unlike my data (financial), was holding actual life and death. It is not just unethical, it is immoral to release this data. It is NOT acceptable to right a wrong by committing another wrong.

He COULD have done a lot without stealing data. When your scruples are pushed (and it will happen for many who are on this site) you are at a raw point. What are you going to do?
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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10/11/2015 1:12:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 1:02:55 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/11/2015 12:50:48 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/10/2015 9:34:43 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/10/2015 4:33:35 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
It's completely moral to out a gov't for spying on it's own citizens. Nothing wrong with that.

Outing fine. Taking (stealing) data you have been intrusted with safeguarding is as bad as the original issue.

I agree with that. As noble as his intentions were, he did expose a lot of information that probably gave terrorists a heads up. A while back, he told everyone the NSA taps every outgoing call to Pakistan.

I can't come close to explaining how I feel about this...

Look. I have had access to incredible data my whole life. It is daunting. One thing you need to keep clear is, this is grave responsibility. If your company is doing somthing very wrong or not, the actual data is about OTHER people. This data is... well, it is lifes. Real life's. This guy, unlike my data (financial), was holding actual life and death. It is not just unethical, it is immoral to release this data. It is NOT acceptable to right a wrong by committing another wrong.

He COULD have done a lot without stealing data. When your scruples are pushed (and it will happen for many who are on this site) you are at a raw point. What are you going to do?

Well you see, when you say that's immoral, that really is your opinion. A person has to weigh out the decisions they are about to make, and for him, it was moral for him to tell the public the crap the NSA has been doing. I can't really critise him for doing that, because he had some justice on his side, but it really isn't a black or white thing. It was however unethical that I agree. He signed a job contract, so he's expected to follow, but for morals, he may have had other plans.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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10/11/2015 1:21:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 1:02:55 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/11/2015 12:50:48 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/10/2015 9:34:43 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/10/2015 4:33:35 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
It's completely moral to out a gov't for spying on it's own citizens. Nothing wrong with that.

Outing fine. Taking (stealing) data you have been intrusted with safeguarding is as bad as the original issue.

I agree with that. As noble as his intentions were, he did expose a lot of information that probably gave terrorists a heads up. A while back, he told everyone the NSA taps every outgoing call to Pakistan.

I can't come close to explaining how I feel about this...

Look. I have had access to incredible data my whole life. It is daunting. One thing you need to keep clear is, this is grave responsibility. If your company is doing somthing very wrong or not, the actual data is about OTHER people. This data is... well, it is lifes. Real life's. This guy, unlike my data (financial), was holding actual life and death. It is not just unethical, it is immoral to release this data. It is NOT acceptable to right a wrong by committing another wrong.

He COULD have done a lot without stealing data. When your scruples are pushed (and it will happen for many who are on this site) you are at a raw point. What are you going to do?

For guy's like Haroush they probably think it's immoral, because the NSA can't protect them anymore..
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/11/2015 1:21:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Well you see, when you say that's immoral, that really is your opinion. A person has to weigh out the decisions they are about to make, and for him, it was moral for him to tell the public the crap the NSA has been doing. I can't really critise him for doing that, because he had some justice on his side, but it really isn't a black or white thing. It was however unethical that I agree. He signed a job contract, so he's expected to follow, but for morals, he may have had other plans.

I really will never get my exact position out on this one. Too much nuisance. I am trying to be personal... I am trying to say what you personally feel when given access to incredible data. Information that people want. Information that people will pay for. Information that matters. It pushes your own personal morals and scruples to the limits. Just who do you want to be? Yea, out the wrong doing, but that information, that data. If you are willing to give it away... You are a sh1t. That is all...
TBR
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10/11/2015 1:30:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
After 9.11 we started to get FBI lists to run agianct our DBs. Now, we had FBI oversight for some time, but this was new. A long list of names, and "connections". We were to apply this to ALL transactions.

Just opening the database to mass scrutiny (second hand) in this way made me queasy. That YOU buying/selling stock were getting your name run through a query I was ultimately responsible for is invasion of YOU privacy that I have NOT informed you of. Yea, I was thinking of quitting over the very concept. Data is.... well it is MY responsibility, and I will take it very seriously. Given the potential invasion of your privacy, I would NEVER think that stealing the whole lot - taking it OUTSIDE the rock solid security and release it to ANYNONE to prove the point. That is bazzaro land reasoning.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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10/11/2015 1:41:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Snowden is, before he is anything else, a guy who does not look before he leaps. He took a shot at goliath and was not prepared for the results that followed. What is most ironic is that nothing has changed since Snowden exposed what he did. The government has not changed its behavior. The NSA is still up and running. The machine won, because he didn't stop them. All Snowden did is teach the intel. community how it has to shape up, and keep a tighter grip on guys like him, or other people who may be similarly inclined. So, what that means is that next time, it will be less likely that another will follow in Snowden's footsteps.

Is being a whistleblower to the largess of surveillance overreach a heroic activity? I don't think so. What would have been heroic is if he'd actually changed anything. The only proximate result of what I've seen Snowden doing is that he got people angry enough that they talked about the issues for more than a few months. Yet, nothing beyond that has taken place, on the public level. (Nothing in this post should be interpreted either as my expressing sympathy for Snowden or the government. I am sympathetic to neither, and I do not take a position on the issue.)
Tsar of DDO
TBR
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10/11/2015 2:28:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 1:41:21 AM, YYW wrote:
Snowden is, before he is anything else, a guy who does not look before he leaps. He took a shot at goliath and was not prepared for the results that followed. What is most ironic is that nothing has changed since Snowden exposed what he did. The government has not changed its behavior. The NSA is still up and running. The machine won, because he didn't stop them. All Snowden did is teach the intel. community how it has to shape up, and keep a tighter grip on guys like him, or other people who may be similarly inclined. So, what that means is that next time, it will be less likely that another will follow in Snowden's footsteps.

Is being a whistleblower to the largess of surveillance overreach a heroic activity? I don't think so. What would have been heroic is if he'd actually changed anything. The only proximate result of what I've seen Snowden doing is that he got people angry enough that they talked about the issues for more than a few months. Yet, nothing beyond that has taken place, on the public level. (Nothing in this post should be interpreted either as my expressing sympathy for Snowden or the government. I am sympathetic to neither, and I do not take a position on the issue.)

Yup. And again, I will say very LOUDLY. We knew this BEFORE he "outed" this data that the NSA had built these bits of software. What he did was get an audience. What he also did was take the gold WITH HIM and give it away to INSECURE agents.

Let me make it personal again. Lest say you go to trade some stock. MY company is doing something bad. To show the world MY company is doing something bad i take YOUR information and out it to the world. How is that good?