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Affirmative action (Pro / Con)

famousdebater
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10/12/2015 6:33:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am undecided on the topic.

Discuss!

.... and post links to any good affirmative action debates because I would really like to have a position on this topic.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
famousdebater
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10/12/2015 7:03:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 6:33:05 PM, famousdebater wrote:
I am undecided on the topic.

Discuss!

.... and post links to any good affirmative action debates because I would really like to have a position on this topic.

Does anybody have any opinions? They don't have to be links to debates.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
BrittanyR1911.45
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10/12/2015 7:17:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 7:03:37 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 10/12/2015 6:33:05 PM, famousdebater wrote:
I am undecided on the topic.

Discuss!

.... and post links to any good affirmative action debates because I would really like to have a position on this topic.

Does anybody have any opinions? They don't have to be links to debates.

I'm against. No application (college,job,etc.) should even ask for ones race, sex, ethnicity, etc. Those are insignificant details when analyzing each applicant's achievements. Let the credentials each individual works to obtain speak for themselves so the best qualified candidate fills every open spot.
famousdebater
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10/12/2015 7:19:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 7:17:03 PM, BrittanyR1911.45 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 7:03:37 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 10/12/2015 6:33:05 PM, famousdebater wrote:
I am undecided on the topic.

Discuss!

.... and post links to any good affirmative action debates because I would really like to have a position on this topic.

Does anybody have any opinions? They don't have to be links to debates.

I'm against. No application (college,job,etc.) should even ask for ones race, sex, ethnicity, etc. Those are insignificant details when analyzing each applicant's achievements. Let the credentials each individual works to obtain speak for themselves so the best qualified candidate fills every open spot.

Thanks for the opinion. I think that after looking at some debates and websites I am leaning towards the con position although more opinions would be appreciated.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
Fly
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10/12/2015 11:49:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 6:33:05 PM, famousdebater wrote:
I am undecided on the topic.

Discuss!

.... and post links to any good affirmative action debates because I would really like to have a position on this topic.

I am largely pro but am certainly not going to defend it as THE perfect solution as its detractors may request. I would also offer up some possible alterations-- at this point, I wonder if females need preferential consideration for colleges and scholarships. I would also add economically disadvantaged non minorities to the program if they aren't already.

I think Martin Luther King phrased it well (with the exception of "negro" in today's context):

"A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for the Negro."
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
tajshar2k
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10/13/2015 12:43:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
C1: Institutionalized discrimination.

To better than understand what affirmative action is, we must see the definition of it.

Affirmative Action: A policy where a institution favors a certain minority race over other races.

Essentially, what does this mean? If a white male and a black male were competing for a job, the black male is automatically preferred over the white male, because he is the minority. This is discrimination. In the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it outlawed any discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex or national origin. When a government is putting a certain race over another, this is institutionalized discrimination. (1)

Pro affirmative action supporters stress that Affirmative Action brings equal opportunity, but it is exactly the opposite. It"s not equal, when you make it a law to favor another race. Nobody should be judged on a criteria they have no control over. It simply is unfair. If a worker is to hire people for a job, it is pretty much common sense that they hire somebody who is best for the job, or they will lose profit. This is exactly why workplaces ask for interviews, references and resumes. By using race as a factor, employees are essentially forced to give a job to minority over somebody else, because of their race. An employer won"t be able to select the best employee, because his queue is narrowed down. Meritocracy is the best and only fair system that should be used.

C2: No longer needed

Affirmative Action was originally implemented by President John F Kennedy, as a way to help African Americans become more integrated into society as they have been brutally oppressed, with Jim Crow laws etc"At the time, it made sense. Blacks were very far behind compared to the white majority, so desperate measures were taken to help them. With Affirmative action, black have progressed. Here are stats I acquired from a source.

"These programs have brought or accompanied significant gains for women and minorities. In the past 25 years, black participation in the work force has increased 50 percent and the percentage of blacks holding managerial positions has jumped fivefold. In 1970, women comprised only 5 percent of lawyers compared to 20 percent today. Twenty-five years ago, the student population at University of California, Berkeley, was 80 percent white compared to 45 percent today."

Yes, you can see that with Affirmative action has done it"s job, the % of minorities have increased, however the policy is being to be hypocritical to it"s original intention, which is to promote equality. This is why Affirmative Action is outdated. For a society to be truly color-blind, it should come naturally, rather than through enforcement. We are at a point in society, where racism is generally shunned upon by most people.

C3: Encourages less effort.

Affirmative Action essentially encourages people to strive for lower goals. For example, if the average white student needed to have a 95% average to be accepted into a school, a minority would only need 90% to be accepted. This essentially encourages less effort. In the mind of a minority, they would be more inclined to score less, because they can be accepted while scoring less.

According to a study done by professors William Bowen and Derek Bot, Blacks who scored 1200 to 1249 on their SAT"s had a 60% chance of admission, while white"s who scored 1200 to 1249 on their SAT"s only had a 19% chance of being accepted. If blacks need to score very to little to being accepted, where is the incentive to succeed? Affirmative Action essentially is harming minorities by rewarding them for scores that should generally be a lot higher. This also creates a thought in the mind of some minorities, that they only were selected because of their race, not their effort. It also further harms them, because they are less prepared for their job later on. (2)

C4: Creates racial tension

Affirmative Action is bound to create racial tension between races. Races that have been shoved behind for minority groups due to their race, will soon began to see minorities as a threat, because their chance of entering the workforce could be in jeopardy. This does nothing to help ease the racial tension that is already prevalent in American society. If minorities are actually helped to perform at higher scores rather than being selected for their race, this will essentially force whites or other races to step their game up, to be competitive. This will create a better workforce for America. Blacks who get accepted can finally say they earned their job through hard work and effort, rather than being ridiculed for being accepted for their color, not their effort.

C5: Harms minorities by making them unprepared for the job.

Affirmative action creates a mismatch for minorities. In a study conducted by Richard Sanders, he did a study were he compared the scores of Black students, to white students in an unbiased study.. He figured that Forty-one point four percent of the first-year black students and 42.5 percent of the graduated students fell in the lowest tenth of their classes by GPA; at elite schools, the first-year figure was 51.6 percent. (3)

In another research he conducted, he compared the bar exams of white students, and black students. 88 percent of white law school graduates passed the exam, however only 61.4 percent of black graduates did. This is basically the showing how Affirmative Action isn"t doing any justice to minorities, the difference between the number of blacks who passed, and the number of whites is nearly 27 percent different. Another study shows that data from one selective California law school from 2005 show that students who received large preferences were 10 times as likely to fail the California bar as students who received no preference.

In general, research shows that 50% of black law students end up in the bottom 10th of their class, and that they are more than twice as likely to drop out as white students.

Another study shown by the University of Michigan shows that, prior to the banning of Affirmative Action, "the University of Michigan admitted 92% of Black applicants and 88% of Hispanic applicants who possessed a 3.2 GPA and a 1240 SAT score while only 10% of White applicants with similar scores were admitted". Admitants who were black, essentially had ""Black admittees had substantially lower SAT scores, ACT scores, and high school GPAs compared to Asians and Whites. The range of Hispanic admitees" test scores (SATs and ACTs) and high school GPAs fell between those for Blacks and those for Asians and Whites "(4)

When these minorities go into the workforce, they likely will perform at a lower level that other races, because they are being rewarded for something that requires less effort for them.

C6: Other minorities are affected

Affirmative Action was originally imposed to help minorities, but the program itself is affecting minorities, and in some cases are assisting the majority itself. Affirmative action policies in the University of California have implemented policies that help white applicants who get admitted.

Essentially, Asians will have to work a lot harder to be accepted, under these Affirmative Action policies. The common stereotype is that Asian-Americans generally are the "model minority" and that most of them are high achieving. However, some Asian Races such as Cambodians, Hmong and Laotians still are struggling to enter the workforce, and only 14% of them have a bachelor"s degree. Essentially Affirmative Action is also making their condition worse, because colleges essentially are making the it harder for Asians to being admitted. (5)

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org......

http://www.scu.edu......

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org......

http://www2.law.ucla.edu......

Nagai, Althea K. "Racial and Ethnic Preferences in Undergraduate Admissions at the University of Michigan." Cen
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
TheProphett
Posts: 520
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10/13/2015 1:01:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 12:43:41 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
C1: Institutionalized discrimination.

To better than understand what affirmative action is, we must see the definition of it.

Affirmative Action: A policy where a institution favors a certain minority race over other races.

Essentially, what does this mean? If a white male and a black male were competing for a job, the black male is automatically preferred over the white male, because he is the minority. This is discrimination. In the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it outlawed any discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex or national origin. When a government is putting a certain race over another, this is institutionalized discrimination. (1)

Pro affirmative action supporters stress that Affirmative Action brings equal opportunity, but it is exactly the opposite. It"s not equal, when you make it a law to favor another race. Nobody should be judged on a criteria they have no control over. It simply is unfair. If a worker is to hire people for a job, it is pretty much common sense that they hire somebody who is best for the job, or they will lose profit. This is exactly why workplaces ask for interviews, references and resumes. By using race as a factor, employees are essentially forced to give a job to minority over somebody else, because of their race. An employer won"t be able to select the best employee, because his queue is narrowed down. Meritocracy is the best and only fair system that should be used.


C2: No longer needed

Affirmative Action was originally implemented by President John F Kennedy, as a way to help African Americans become more integrated into society as they have been brutally oppressed, with Jim Crow laws etc"At the time, it made sense. Blacks were very far behind compared to the white majority, so desperate measures were taken to help them. With Affirmative action, black have progressed. Here are stats I acquired from a source.

"These programs have brought or accompanied significant gains for women and minorities. In the past 25 years, black participation in the work force has increased 50 percent and the percentage of blacks holding managerial positions has jumped fivefold. In 1970, women comprised only 5 percent of lawyers compared to 20 percent today. Twenty-five years ago, the student population at University of California, Berkeley, was 80 percent white compared to 45 percent today."

Yes, you can see that with Affirmative action has done it"s job, the % of minorities have increased, however the policy is being to be hypocritical to it"s original intention, which is to promote equality. This is why Affirmative Action is outdated. For a society to be truly color-blind, it should come naturally, rather than through enforcement. We are at a point in society, where racism is generally shunned upon by most people.



C3: Encourages less effort.

Affirmative Action essentially encourages people to strive for lower goals. For example, if the average white student needed to have a 95% average to be accepted into a school, a minority would only need 90% to be accepted. This essentially encourages less effort. In the mind of a minority, they would be more inclined to score less, because they can be accepted while scoring less.

According to a study done by professors William Bowen and Derek Bot, Blacks who scored 1200 to 1249 on their SAT"s had a 60% chance of admission, while white"s who scored 1200 to 1249 on their SAT"s only had a 19% chance of being accepted. If blacks need to score very to little to being accepted, where is the incentive to succeed? Affirmative Action essentially is harming minorities by rewarding them for scores that should generally be a lot higher. This also creates a thought in the mind of some minorities, that they only were selected because of their race, not their effort. It also further harms them, because they are less prepared for their job later on. (2)



C4: Creates racial tension

Affirmative Action is bound to create racial tension between races. Races that have been shoved behind for minority groups due to their race, will soon began to see minorities as a threat, because their chance of entering the workforce could be in jeopardy. This does nothing to help ease the racial tension that is already prevalent in American society. If minorities are actually helped to perform at higher scores rather than being selected for their race, this will essentially force whites or other races to step their game up, to be competitive. This will create a better workforce for America. Blacks who get accepted can finally say they earned their job through hard work and effort, rather than being ridiculed for being accepted for their color, not their effort.


C5: Harms minorities by making them unprepared for the job.

Affirmative action creates a mismatch for minorities. In a study conducted by Richard Sanders, he did a study were he compared the scores of Black students, to white students in an unbiased study.. He figured that Forty-one point four percent of the first-year black students and 42.5 percent of the graduated students fell in the lowest tenth of their classes by GPA; at elite schools, the first-year figure was 51.6 percent. (3)

In another research he conducted, he compared the bar exams of white students, and black students. 88 percent of white law school graduates passed the exam, however only 61.4 percent of black graduates did. This is basically the showing how Affirmative Action isn"t doing any justice to minorities, the difference between the number of blacks who passed, and the number of whites is nearly 27 percent different. Another study shows that data from one selective California law school from 2005 show that students who received large preferences were 10 times as likely to fail the California bar as students who received no preference.

In general, research shows that 50% of black law students end up in the bottom 10th of their class, and that they are more than twice as likely to drop out as white students.

Another study shown by the University of Michigan shows that, prior to the banning of Affirmative Action, "the University of Michigan admitted 92% of Black applicants and 88% of Hispanic applicants who possessed a 3.2 GPA and a 1240 SAT score while only 10% of White applicants with similar scores were admitted". Admitants who were black, essentially had ""Black admittees had substantially lower SAT scores, ACT scores, and high school GPAs compared to Asians and Whites. The range of Hispanic admitees" test scores (SATs and ACTs) and high school GPAs fell between those for Blacks and those for Asians and Whites "(4)

When these minorities go into the workforce, they likely will perform at a lower level that other races, because they are being rewarded for something that requires less effort for them.

C6: Other minorities are affected
Affirmative Action was originally imposed to help minorities, but the program itself is affecting minorities, and in some cases are assisting the majority itself. Affirmative action policies in the University of California have implemented policies that help white applicants who get admitted.

Essentially, Asians will have to work a lot harder to be accepted, under these Affirmative Action policies. The common stereotype is that Asian-Americans generally are the "model minority" and that most of them are high achieving. However, some Asian Races such as Cambodians, Hmong and Laotians still are struggling to enter the workforce, and only 14% of them have a bachelor"s degree. Essentially Affirmative Action is also making their condition worse, because colleges essentially are making the it harder for Asians to being admitted. (5)


Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org......

http://www.scu.edu......

http://www.discoverthenetworks...
Topics I would like to debate: https://docs.google.com...

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TheProphett
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10/13/2015 1:02:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 12:43:41 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
Yep. These are good ones to use.
Topics I would like to debate: https://docs.google.com...

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She's a cunning linguist, but I'm a master debater - Austin Powers


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tajshar2k
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10/13/2015 1:05:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 1:02:19 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 12:43:41 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
Yep. These are good ones to use.

I just copied my whole debate lol.
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TheProphett
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10/13/2015 1:06:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 1:05:54 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:02:19 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 12:43:41 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
Yep. These are good ones to use.

I just copied my whole debate lol.

Its weird, that is just like mine word for word XD
Topics I would like to debate: https://docs.google.com...

Epic Quotes:

She's a cunning linguist, but I'm a master debater - Austin Powers


Economic Forum Revival Co-Leader

If you are interested in starting a political journal for the site, please contact me.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,384
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10/13/2015 1:07:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 1:06:27 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:05:54 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:02:19 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 12:43:41 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
Yep. These are good ones to use.

I just copied my whole debate lol.

Its weird, that is just like mine word for word XD

Don't worry, I didn't copy your debate. It's just those are the main points all Con AA people make.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
tajshar2k
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10/13/2015 1:11:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 1:06:27 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:05:54 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:02:19 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 12:43:41 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
Yep. These are good ones to use.

I just copied my whole debate lol.

Its weird, that is just like mine word for word XD

Just checked it, your debate is actually a lot different. Just a couple arguments we both were talking about the same thing
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
TheProphett
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10/13/2015 1:12:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 1:07:16 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:06:27 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:05:54 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:02:19 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 12:43:41 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
Yep. These are good ones to use.

I just copied my whole debate lol.

Its weird, that is just like mine word for word XD

Don't worry, I didn't copy your debate. It's just those are the main points all Con AA people make.

It really is an outdated policy. Nah, I didn't think you copied it. I don't see how anyone in this day and age can argue Pro anymore.
Topics I would like to debate: https://docs.google.com...

Epic Quotes:

She's a cunning linguist, but I'm a master debater - Austin Powers


Economic Forum Revival Co-Leader

If you are interested in starting a political journal for the site, please contact me.
TheProphett
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10/13/2015 1:13:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 1:11:28 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:06:27 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:05:54 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:02:19 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 12:43:41 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
Yep. These are good ones to use.

I just copied my whole debate lol.

Its weird, that is just like mine word for word XD

Just checked it, your debate is actually a lot different. Just a couple arguments we both were talking about the same thing

Yeah, but what I was focusing on was the outdated policy and perpetuating racial stigma arguments. Those were important in both of our debates, and are important for every good argument against A.A.
Topics I would like to debate: https://docs.google.com...

Epic Quotes:

She's a cunning linguist, but I'm a master debater - Austin Powers


Economic Forum Revival Co-Leader

If you are interested in starting a political journal for the site, please contact me.
tajshar2k
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10/13/2015 1:13:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 1:12:32 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:07:16 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:06:27 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:05:54 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 10/13/2015 1:02:19 AM, TheProphett wrote:
At 10/13/2015 12:43:41 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
Yep. These are good ones to use.

I just copied my whole debate lol.

Its weird, that is just like mine word for word XD

Don't worry, I didn't copy your debate. It's just those are the main points all Con AA people make.

It really is an outdated policy. Nah, I didn't think you copied it. I don't see how anyone in this day and age can argue Pro anymore.

Same here. I'm progressive myself too.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Dilara
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10/13/2015 2:50:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Affirmative action is sexist and racist. denying a white/man a job because of their race or gender when they worked hard for it and giving it to a black/woman who didn't work as hard and doesn't deserve it as much is cruel, sexist and racist. it puts people in positions that they aren't ready for. that's why blacks have higher drop out rates in college. im a white woman and we benefit more than anyone but im stlil against it because i don't want to succeed because of sexism.
what if your giving the advantage to a rich woman over poor man?, what if the man had a herder life and had to work harder get to where he is than her? and your still giving her the advantage and creating more of a disparity.
popculturepooka
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10/13/2015 3:53:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 2:50:23 AM, Dilara wrote:
Affirmative action is sexist and racist. denying a white/man a job because of their race or gender when they worked hard for it and giving it to a black/woman who didn't work as hard and doesn't deserve it as much is cruel, sexist and racist. it puts people in positions that they aren't ready for. that's why blacks have higher drop out rates in college. im a white woman and we benefit more than anyone but im stlil against it because i don't want to succeed because of sexism.
what if your giving the advantage to a rich woman over poor man?, what if the man had a herder life and had to work harder get to where he is than her? and your still giving her the advantage and creating more of a disparity.

Inb4 you talk your abolitionist ancestors
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Skepsikyma
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10/13/2015 4:10:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 12:43:41 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
The biggest con, I think, is that it ignores the biggest influence on how much privilege anyone has, which is class. A black kid whose family makes north of 200k a year has a much better chance at a decent life than a white kid coming from a 'trailer trash' background will ever have, and that white kid has a racial edge over an inner city, destitute youth. Basing things on race is just lazy and counterproductive; we should be using socioeconomic class as the deciding factor if we're really looking to offset disadvantages faced by black people, because the upper-class black kids will be the ones who benefit from the quota first, with the lower class ones lagging behind and the lower class whites being completely left in the dark. So you run the danger of ending up with a reinforcement of the very class barriers which keep black youth trapped in a cycle of poverty in the first place.

I also think that AA ties in with the consistent lowering of standards for inner city students, which is just deplorable. Giving someone a fraudulent degree and sending them to college without the tools necessary to succeed there isn't compassionate, it's just a morbid mixture of cruel and self-congratulatory. This isn't a surface problem, and giving someone a job without adequately preparing them for it isn't an adequate solution. It is, like so many aspects of race relations in America, a marginally effective distraction. Education reform, community reform, and genuine attempts to give black people skill that they otherwise would not have access to (something like an AA apprenticeship program) would be much more helpful than AA at this point. We should be talking about AA after black kids are being given the education which every America child is entitled to, not before.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
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Todd0611
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10/13/2015 7:49:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 7:17:03 PM, BrittanyR1911.45 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 7:03:37 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 10/12/2015 6:33:05 PM, famousdebater wrote:
I am undecided on the topic.

Discuss!

.... and post links to any good affirmative action debates because I would really like to have a position on this topic.

Does anybody have any opinions? They don't have to be links to debates.

I'm against. No application (college,job,etc.) should even ask for ones race, sex, ethnicity, etc. Those are insignificant details when analyzing each applicant's achievements. Let the credentials each individual works to obtain speak for themselves so the best qualified candidate fills every open spot.

If only the world would accept this simple, common sense idea. If I was an employer, if I didn't know your sex, or race, then in a perfect world, no gender or race bias would impact the application practice; however, the majority of the time, you can tell someone's gender based off their name (I know there are exceptions, but the majority of the time, I knew when I was interviewing a male or female based off their name on the application).

I can not think of a reason why anyone who supports AA, would disagree to this proposal. This would make the application process a lot less biased, and move toward strictly basing the acceptance or hiring of an individual based on merit. On paper this looks like it would work, but once the face to face interview happened, then bias could become applicable. I am all for choosing someone based of qualifications, experience, and achievements. While I do not support affirmative action, I have seen need for it. Explanation below...

When I was 17-22 years old, I worked for Randall's (Grocery chain in Houston), at a location whose clientele was about 90% white. I saw some of the black applicants get turned down, because the hiring manager could be overheard in the backroom, saying they didn't want to hire any n.... (fill in derogatory name). This was obviously because the person hiring was prejudiced. They (meaning that particular store) did hire very few minorities at that time (circa 1990). From this personal experience, I could see why people were advocating for affirmative action. Even though this is a good example of why AA policies may be needed, I can not see how having a quota of "X" number of minorities, can not be seen as discrimination against non-minorities.

I do not know what an acceptable, reasonable practice would be to guarantee equality (you can't force people to not be prejudice, some people were just brought up wrong). I know that when I hired people as a restaurant manger for years, a lot of my choosing people was based off their experience, and appearance. These people would be serving my guests, so I wanted a certain standard kept. I never excluded someone based off gender, or race, I mainly choose based off personality, and experience. If I would have been forced to meet a quota to fill a certain number of Asian, Black, Hispanic, Indian, and other groups, then that would be a managing nightmare. So logistically, affirmative action has some downsides as well.
BrittanyR1911.45
Posts: 12
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10/13/2015 9:08:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 7:49:09 PM, Todd0611 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 7:17:03 PM, BrittanyR1911.45 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 7:03:37 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 10/12/2015 6:33:05 PM, famousdebater wrote:
I am undecided on the topic.

Discuss!

.... and post links to any good affirmative action debates because I would really like to have a position on this topic.

Does anybody have any opinions? They don't have to be links to debates.

I'm against. No application (college,job,etc.) should even ask for ones race, sex, ethnicity, etc. Those are insignificant details when analyzing each applicant's achievements. Let the credentials each individual works to obtain speak for themselves so the best qualified candidate fills every open spot.

If only the world would accept this simple, common sense idea. If I was an employer, if I didn't know your sex, or race, then in a perfect world, no gender or race bias would impact the application practice; however, the majority of the time, you can tell someone's gender based off their name (I know there are exceptions, but the majority of the time, I knew when I was interviewing a male or female based off their name on the application).

I can not think of a reason why anyone who supports AA, would disagree to this proposal. This would make the application process a lot less biased, and move toward strictly basing the acceptance or hiring of an individual based on merit. On paper this looks like it would work, but once the face to face interview happened, then bias could become applicable. I am all for choosing someone based of qualifications, experience, and achievements. While I do not support affirmative action, I have seen need for it. Explanation below...

When I was 17-22 years old, I worked for Randall's (Grocery chain in Houston), at a location whose clientele was about 90% white. I saw some of the black applicants get turned down, because the hiring manager could be overheard in the backroom, saying they didn't want to hire any n.... (fill in derogatory name). This was obviously because the person hiring was prejudiced. They (meaning that particular store) did hire very few minorities at that time (circa 1990). From this personal experience, I could see why people were advocating for affirmative action. Even though this is a good example of why AA policies may be needed, I can not see how having a quota of "X" number of minorities, can not be seen as discrimination against non-minorities.

I do not know what an acceptable, reasonable practice would be to guarantee equality (you can't force people to not be prejudice, some people were just brought up wrong). I know that when I hired people as a restaurant manger for years, a lot of my choosing people was based off their experience, and appearance. These people would be serving my guests, so I wanted a certain standard kept. I never excluded someone based off gender, or race, I mainly choose based off personality, and experience. If I would have been forced to meet a quota to fill a certain number of Asian, Black, Hispanic, Indian, and other groups, then that would be a managing nightmare. So logistically, affirmative action has some downsides as well.

I agree. I have never really understood why common sense isn't all that common anymore. my solution to the situation mentioned would be to punish the manager and fire he/she who is discriminating instead of punishing the applicants that would in turn be discriminated against for being a non-minority if affirmative action were enforced.

Too easy though, right?
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,609
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10/13/2015 10:42:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 6:33:05 PM, famousdebater wrote:
I am undecided on the topic.

Discuss!

.... and post links to any good affirmative action debates because I would really like to have a position on this topic.

If they want to walk down that road then it better work both ways. I've walked into many an Asian (Chinese mostly) owned business as a salesman and as a courier driver and never seen a white, brown or black person. Almost every white owned business I've walked into has different races, and not just as labor. I live in a multi racial North American city. What does this tell you?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/14/2015 12:03:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/13/2015 10:42:11 PM, lotsoffun wrote:
At 10/12/2015 6:33:05 PM, famousdebater wrote:
I am undecided on the topic.

Discuss!

.... and post links to any good affirmative action debates because I would really like to have a position on this topic.

If they want to walk down that road then it better work both ways. I've walked into many an Asian (Chinese mostly) owned business as a salesman and as a courier driver and never seen a white, brown or black person. Almost every white owned business I've walked into has different races, and not just as labor. I live in a multi racial North American city. What does this tell you?

It tells you most of those start up small businesses use their family/close friends because they can pay them less. It has no relevance to AA.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
ax123man
Posts: 317
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10/14/2015 12:55:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think most intelligent people who've studied AA come to the conclusion it's a bad idea. The more interesting question we're left with is why so many well meaning, intelligent people continue to support it. Dig down into that rabbit hole - that's when you begin to understand how the world works. Not that I have all that figure out. I just think that human motivations at that level are critical to understanding any controversial subject.
popculturepooka
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10/14/2015 1:13:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 12:55:22 AM, ax123man wrote:
I think most intelligent people who've studied AA come to the conclusion it's a bad idea.

Um, and how did you come to that conclusion?

The more interesting question we're left with is why so many well meaning, intelligent people continue to support it. Dig down into that rabbit hole - that's when you begin to understand how the world works. Not that I have all that figure out. I just think that human motivations at that level are critical to understanding any controversial subject.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
ax123man
Posts: 317
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10/14/2015 1:21:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 1:13:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2015 12:55:22 AM, ax123man wrote:
I think most intelligent people who've studied AA come to the conclusion it's a bad idea.

Um, and how did you come to that conclusion?

Read tajshar2k's debate above or read Thomas Sowell.
I've beat this topic to death in the past. It's like debating tariffs, or answering the libertarian question "Who would build the roads". I'm tired of it and it's all been covered by those much wiser than myself.


The more interesting question we're left with is why so many well meaning, intelligent people continue to support it. Dig down into that rabbit hole - that's when you begin to understand how the world works. Not that I have all that figure out. I just think that human motivations at that level are critical to understanding any controversial subject.

you skipped my more interesting question.
popculturepooka
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10/14/2015 1:41:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 1:21:06 AM, ax123man wrote:
At 10/14/2015 1:13:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2015 12:55:22 AM, ax123man wrote:
I think most intelligent people who've studied AA come to the conclusion it's a bad idea.

Um, and how did you come to that conclusion?

Read tajshar2k's debate above or read Thomas Sowell.

I have. What's your point? I don't find them persuasive.

I've beat this topic to death in the past. It's like debating tariffs, or answering the libertarian question "Who would build the roads". I'm tired of it and it's all been covered by those much wiser than myself.


The more interesting question we're left with is why so many well meaning, intelligent people continue to support it. Dig down into that rabbit hole - that's when you begin to understand how the world works. Not that I have all that figure out. I just think that human motivations at that level are critical to understanding any controversial subject.

you skipped my more interesting question.

Well, the first part of your question presupposes that they are wrong in the first place. But barring that, it's an interesting question and that'd require a lot empirical study but I'm not sure why one wouldn't also be examining the motivations of those who are opposed to it.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Yonko
Posts: 227
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10/14/2015 1:43:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 1:13:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2015 12:55:22 AM, ax123man wrote:
I think most intelligent people who've studied AA come to the conclusion it's a bad idea.

Um, and how did you come to that conclusion?

I'm very interested in seeing your reasons for supporting affirmative action. I'm firmly of the conviction that there is a tenable case to be made for pretty much every intellectual position, but I have yet to see any such case in favor of AA.
ax123man
Posts: 317
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10/14/2015 1:52:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 1:41:24 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2015 1:21:06 AM, ax123man wrote:
At 10/14/2015 1:13:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2015 12:55:22 AM, ax123man wrote:
I think most intelligent people who've studied AA come to the conclusion it's a bad idea.

Um, and how did you come to that conclusion?

Read tajshar2k's debate above or read Thomas Sowell.

I have. What's your point? I don't find them persuasive.

I'm not trying to make any point. Your the one looking for a fight. Find someone else. I'm not interested.


I've beat this topic to death in the past. It's like debating tariffs, or answering the libertarian question "Who would build the roads". I'm tired of it and it's all been covered by those much wiser than myself.


The more interesting question we're left with is why so many well meaning, intelligent people continue to support it. Dig down into that rabbit hole - that's when you begin to understand how the world works. Not that I have all that figure out. I just think that human motivations at that level are critical to understanding any controversial subject.

you skipped my more interesting question.

Well, the first part of your question presupposes that they are wrong in the first place. But barring that, it's an interesting question and that'd require a lot empirical study but I'm not sure why one wouldn't also be examining the motivations of those who are opposed to it.

Empirical studies aren't all that good are figuring these kinds of things out. Better to reason from first principals.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/14/2015 2:05:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 1:52:29 AM, ax123man wrote:
At 10/14/2015 1:41:24 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2015 1:21:06 AM, ax123man wrote:
At 10/14/2015 1:13:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2015 12:55:22 AM, ax123man wrote:
I think most intelligent people who've studied AA come to the conclusion it's a bad idea.

Um, and how did you come to that conclusion?

Read tajshar2k's debate above or read Thomas Sowell.

I have. What's your point? I don't find them persuasive.

I'm not trying to make any point. Your the one looking for a fight. Find someone else. I'm not interested.


I'm trying to pick a fight because I asked you how to came to a particular conclusion? Lol, okay.


I've beat this topic to death in the past. It's like debating tariffs, or answering the libertarian question "Who would build the roads". I'm tired of it and it's all been covered by those much wiser than myself.


The more interesting question we're left with is why so many well meaning, intelligent people continue to support it. Dig down into that rabbit hole - that's when you begin to understand how the world works. Not that I have all that figure out. I just think that human motivations at that level are critical to understanding any controversial subject.

you skipped my more interesting question.

Well, the first part of your question presupposes that they are wrong in the first place. But barring that, it's an interesting question and that'd require a lot empirical study but I'm not sure why one wouldn't also be examining the motivations of those who are opposed to it.


Empirical studies aren't all that good are figuring these kinds of things out. Better to reason from first principals.

Empirical study has a great deal to do with trying to suss out what sort of motivations and biases are at play in our psychological make up - that is how we found out about many commonly known biases these days. Self reporting of motivation is useful but sometimes can be misleading. What first principals would we start from? This isn't really a matter one can reason a priori from.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/14/2015 2:05:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 1:43:42 AM, Yonko wrote:
At 10/14/2015 1:13:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2015 12:55:22 AM, ax123man wrote:
I think most intelligent people who've studied AA come to the conclusion it's a bad idea.

Um, and how did you come to that conclusion?

I'm very interested in seeing your reasons for supporting affirmative action. I'm firmly of the conviction that there is a tenable case to be made for pretty much every intellectual position, but I have yet to see any such case in favor of AA.

Maybe I'll do a debate on it next month.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!