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Apparently I was wrong about the debate...

TBR
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10/14/2015 3:51:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I love Sanders, and am willing to suffer the arguments to make him my next president, but he needed to really show last night. He needed to be great! Well, I think I was wrong.

By any objective measure, Bernie did a mediocre job, and Hillary did a great job. It hurt me to watch and know in my heart that she was going to come out of this the clear choice. But WAIT! Not so fast! Looks like the people, you know - the ones that vote - thought Sanders was GREAT!

Yup. Looks like I am on my way to a long general election cycle of volunteerism. Go Bernie!!!
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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10/14/2015 3:58:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 3:51:12 PM, TBR wrote:
I love Sanders, and am willing to suffer the arguments to make him my next president, but he needed to really show last night. He needed to be great! Well, I think I was wrong.

By any objective measure, Bernie did a mediocre job, and Hillary did a great job. It hurt me to watch and know in my heart that she was going to come out of this the clear choice. But WAIT! Not so fast! Looks like the people, you know - the ones that vote - thought Sanders was GREAT!

Yup. Looks like I am on my way to a long general election cycle of volunteerism. Go Bernie!!!

What are you talking about, Hillary did a mediocre job and Bernie did good, not great, but good. He went on an awesome rant about Wall Street like every other minute that got the crowd cheering and all.
imabench
Posts: 21,210
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10/14/2015 5:01:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Bernie had his moments sure but I dont think he 'won' the debate outright, like Trump did in the first GOP debate. Hillary held her own, and Chafee was so terrible he made everyone else at least look competent. At least in my own opinion
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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TBR
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10/14/2015 5:09:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What are you talking about, Hillary did a mediocre job and Bernie did good, not great, but good. He went on an awesome rant about Wall Street like every other minute that got the crowd cheering and all.

Good to hear. I will take that I was wrong on this one. We saw different things, and I am MORE than happy that most people saw a strong Bernie.
TBR
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10/14/2015 5:11:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Bernie had his moments sure but I dont think he 'won' the debate outright, like Trump did in the first GOP debate. Hillary held her own, and Chafee was so terrible he made everyone else at least look competent. At least in my own opinion

While watching, and afterwards, I would have said the same thing. Waking up this morning to read some reviews, it would appear the people DO think Bernie won.

Chafee was the worse, but each of those guys was better than anyone on the GOP stage. Not just my partisan thing - the field looked like true professionals.
imabench
Posts: 21,210
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10/14/2015 5:14:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 5:11:37 PM, TBR wrote:
Bernie had his moments sure but I dont think he 'won' the debate outright, like Trump did in the first GOP debate. Hillary held her own, and Chafee was so terrible he made everyone else at least look competent. At least in my own opinion

While watching, and afterwards, I would have said the same thing. Waking up this morning to read some reviews, it would appear the people DO think Bernie won.

Bernie Sanders fans would have said that Bernie won the debate even if he did the worst, id be wary of any hype you hear about how Bernie won....

Chafee was the worst, but each of those guys was better than anyone on the GOP stage. Not just my partisan thing - the field looked like true professionals.

Maybe not Kasich, but for the rest of the GOP field I agree with ya
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
TBR
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10/14/2015 5:18:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 5:14:20 PM, imabench wrote:
At 10/14/2015 5:11:37 PM, TBR wrote:
Bernie had his moments sure but I dont think he 'won' the debate outright, like Trump did in the first GOP debate. Hillary held her own, and Chafee was so terrible he made everyone else at least look competent. At least in my own opinion

While watching, and afterwards, I would have said the same thing. Waking up this morning to read some reviews, it would appear the people DO think Bernie won.

Bernie Sanders fans would have said that Bernie won the debate even if he did the worst, id be wary of any hype you hear about how Bernie won....

Chafee was the worst, but each of those guys was better than anyone on the GOP stage. Not just my partisan thing - the field looked like true professionals.

Maybe not Kasich, but for the rest of the GOP field I agree with ya

Its not just the echo chamber. Even some strong Hillary supporters. Again, I think I am wrong, but I saw what I saw. Hillary was damn ready to go, and Sanders was... not as good.
Todd0611
Posts: 99
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10/14/2015 5:50:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 5:18:20 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/14/2015 5:14:20 PM, imabench wrote:
At 10/14/2015 5:11:37 PM, TBR wrote:
Bernie had his moments sure but I dont think he 'won' the debate outright, like Trump did in the first GOP debate. Hillary held her own, and Chafee was so terrible he made everyone else at least look competent. At least in my own opinion

While watching, and afterwards, I would have said the same thing. Waking up this morning to read some reviews, it would appear the people DO think Bernie won.

Bernie Sanders fans would have said that Bernie won the debate even if he did the worst, id be wary of any hype you hear about how Bernie won....

Chafee was the worst, but each of those guys was better than anyone on the GOP stage. Not just my partisan thing - the field looked like true professionals.

Maybe not Kasich, but for the rest of the GOP field I agree with ya

Its not just the echo chamber. Even some strong Hillary supporters. Again, I think I am wrong, but I saw what I saw. Hillary was damn ready to go, and Sanders was... not as good.

I really didn't know much about Sanders, accept what I've read in the news. He comes across as a person with strong character, and even if you don't agree with his policies, or means to get there, you have to respect him for being genuine- a quality that most politicians do not have. He has deep convictions, and delivered well, but like I said in my other post about the debate, I'm just not sure he'll get the numbers he needs.

Hillary is a well-oiled political machine, she knows how to talk, and she never seemed to get flustered last night. I'd give her a very, very slight edge to Bernie last night, and like she said (paraphrasing), "all of us agree on the results/goals, just not the means to get there". Hillary was putting out ways to get the policies to come to fruition, knowing that in Washington, it's not one-sided, and that you have to compromise to get things passed in Congress. Things may turn Bernie's way in some of the early rounds, but once you get deeper into the election cycle, I'm not sure he can pull the results he would need.

The antagonizing questions from the moderators from both debates seem to just be asked to try and get a one liner response that can be thrown in the news the next day. This debate was more substance than the Republican one, IMO, because there were fewer candidates. If the pubs want to get time to speak about policy, and their plans, they have to get rid of 5 or 6 more nominees.
TBR
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10/14/2015 5:56:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I really didn't know much about Sanders, accept what I've read in the news. He comes across as a person with strong character, and even if you don't agree with his policies, or means to get there, you have to respect him for being genuine- a quality that most politicians do not have. He has deep convictions, and delivered well, but like I said in my other post about the debate, I'm just not sure he'll get the numbers he needs.


Well, this is what I was hoping for. This is EXACTLY what he needed to get out there. He is a very consistent and genuine guy. Good or bad, he has stayed true to coarse throughout his carrier.

Hillary is a well-oiled political machine, she knows how to talk, and she never seemed to get flustered last night. I'd give her a very, very slight edge to Bernie last night, and like she said (paraphrasing), "all of us agree on the results/goals, just not the means to get there". Hillary was putting out ways to get the policies to come to fruition, knowing that in Washington, it's not one-sided, and that you have to compromise to get things passed in Congress. Things may turn Bernie's way in some of the early rounds, but once you get deeper into the election cycle, I'm not sure he can pull the results he would need.

Yea, she is a well-oiled machine. She has been working at this for a long time, and is very good at it. If we want the "win" she should be the choice. Sanders is going to be a battle, but I want that battle.

The antagonizing questions from the moderators from both debates seem to just be asked to try and get a one liner response that can be thrown in the news the next day. This debate was more substance than the Republican one, IMO, because there were fewer candidates. If the pubs want to get time to speak about policy, and their plans, they have to get rid of 5 or 6 more nominees.

The GOP debates contrasted with this one is stark. So much more substance.
GeoLaureate8
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10/14/2015 6:10:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Bernie Sanders is not seriously trying to win. He gave Hillary a layup and a huge gift by bailing her out of the email scandal.

If Bernie Sanders wants to win, he has to defeat Hillary, and the email scandal is what could bring her down and hand the nomination to Bernie.

Hillary Clinton won the debate, she was a very good debater and came off more polished (& not robotic) than people expected.

Bernie Sanders did really well, but he did fumble and mumble about Putin. However, I think he won over the public.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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10/14/2015 6:16:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 5:56:05 PM, TBR wrote:
The GOP debates contrasted with this one is stark. So much more substance.

CNN moderators were responsible for asking non-substantive questions to Republicans. CNN asked Carly Fiorina to respond to what Trump thinks about her face. Come on. Republicans didn't tell Jake Tapper to ask that but he did.

The Democrat debate was about who would ban more guns, who would restrict more energy production, who would hand out the most free stuff, who would raise taxes the highest, and how racist, mean and bigoted Republicans are.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
TBR
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10/14/2015 6:20:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 6:16:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/14/2015 5:56:05 PM, TBR wrote:
The GOP debates contrasted with this one is stark. So much more substance.

CNN moderators were responsible for asking non-substantive questions to Republicans. CNN asked Carly Fiorina to respond to what Trump thinks about her face. Come on. Republicans didn't tell Jake Tapper to ask that but he did.

The Democrat debate was about who would ban more guns, who would restrict more energy production, who would hand out the most free stuff, who would raise taxes the highest, and how racist, mean and bigoted Republicans are.

GeoLaureate8, you don't need to prove how partisan you are. We know it... You win that race. However, some times you need to just look at a situation with open eyes. The GOP debates were void of much of the substance. Its not just the fault of the moderators, it was the candidates too.

When the GOP looses this race, you can call it the fault of the media or whatever you like, but at some point, you got to take a look at the substance and ask why the candidates are not resonating with anyone outside of the narrow base.
Mikal
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10/14/2015 6:28:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
O malley won the debate, that cannot even be argued. Bernie did okay, hillary was okay, chaffe was so bad they would not let him talk and the other guy was such a non factor i still cant remember his name. The only reason i remember chaffe was that he did such a bad jo
b that it cannot be purged from my memory
ben2974
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10/14/2015 6:37:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 6:28:42 PM, Mikal wrote:
O malley won the debate, that cannot even be argued. Bernie did okay, hillary was okay, chaffe was so bad they would not let him talk and the other guy was such a non factor i still cant remember his name. The only reason i remember chaffe was that he did such a bad jo
b that it cannot be purged from my memory

i lol'd.
Poor chaffe
ben2974
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10/14/2015 6:39:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 5:14:20 PM, imabench wrote:
At 10/14/2015 5:11:37 PM, TBR wrote:
Bernie had his moments sure but I dont think he 'won' the debate outright, like Trump did in the first GOP debate. Hillary held her own, and Chafee was so terrible he made everyone else at least look competent. At least in my own opinion

While watching, and afterwards, I would have said the same thing. Waking up this morning to read some reviews, it would appear the people DO think Bernie won.

Bernie Sanders fans would have said that Bernie won the debate even if he did the worst, id be wary of any hype you hear about how Bernie won....

I got that vibe as well. And it makes me think twice about Bernie's supporters and their understanding of policy.

Chafee was the worst, but each of those guys was better than anyone on the GOP stage. Not just my partisan thing - the field looked like true professionals.

Maybe not Kasich, but for the rest of the GOP field I agree with ya
GeoLaureate8
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10/14/2015 7:31:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 5:14:20 PM, imabench wrote:
Chafee was the worst, but each of those guys was better than anyone on the GOP stage. Not just my partisan thing - the field looked like true professionals.

Maybe not Kasich, but for the rest of the GOP field I agree with ya

Are you kidding me? Ted Cruz humiliated Kasich three times in that debate! Cruz showed Kasich why nobody should ever dare try to refute Ted Cruz and expect get away with it.

I'm not a fan of Marco Rubio, but he is by far one of the most professional looking candidates up on that debate stage. Marco Rubio looks more professional than O'Malley, Chafee, Sanders & even Hillary.

Cruz, Rubio, Fiorina, and Christie look more professional than every single Democrat candidate and would mop the floor with any of them.

Bernie Sanders sounds like a moron when he talks. Chafee, nice guy, but isn't cut out for debate. O'Malley, decent, but stumbled across few times. Jim Webb had some strong moments and some very weak moments.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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10/14/2015 7:41:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 6:20:22 PM, TBR wrote:
GeoLaureate8, you don't need to prove how partisan you are. We know it... You win that race.

I voted for Libertarian Gary Johnson in 2012, not Romney.

In 2014, I used the local Tea Party voter guide and voted for Republicans, Democrats, & Independents in the primaries and the election.

However, some times you need to just look at a situation with open eyes. The GOP debates were void of much of the substance. Its not just the fault of the moderators, it was the candidates too.

90% of it was substance. There would be two questions out of the 3 hours each debate that involved trivialities of who got called what name by Trump.

They discussed foreign policy, taxes, drug policy, business records, immigration, climate change policy, states rights, trade, and the qualifications of the candidates.

When the GOP looses this race, you can call it the fault of the media or whatever you like, but at some point, you got to take a look at the substance and ask why the candidates are not resonating with anyone outside of the narrow base.

About half of the country is Republican and Republicans are more enthusiastic about this lineup of candidates than ever before in recent times.

What do you want us to do, nominate another moderate to lose the general?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
TBR
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10/14/2015 7:45:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
About half of the country is Republican and Republicans are more enthusiastic about this lineup of candidates than ever before in recent times.

What do you want us to do, nominate another moderate to lose the general?

You don't win a general election by pushing issues that better than half the public disagrees with. Regardless of your take on the NRA, the majority (including NRA members) are closer in-line with what Clinton and Sanders say in this regard.

Who gets the middle wins the race. It really is that simple.
1harderthanyouthink
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10/14/2015 7:52:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 5:14:20 PM, imabench wrote:
At 10/14/2015 5:11:37 PM, TBR wrote:
Bernie had his moments sure but I dont think he 'won' the debate outright, like Trump did in the first GOP debate. Hillary held her own, and Chafee was so terrible he made everyone else at least look competent. At least in my own opinion

While watching, and afterwards, I would have said the same thing. Waking up this morning to read some reviews, it would appear the people DO think Bernie won.

Bernie Sanders fans would have said that Bernie won the debate even if he did the worst, id be wary of any hype you hear about how Bernie won....

If I recall correctly, about 80% of viewers said Sanders won the debate. It'd be hard to say it's just his "fans".

That said, I think Clinton was strong. But, I don't think the public shared the same views that some political commenters on CNN seemed to opine on after the debate ended. I heard them say he didn't prove his electability...but 80%...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
GeoLaureate8
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10/14/2015 8:57:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 7:45:34 PM, TBR wrote:
You don't win a general election by pushing issues that better than half the public disagrees with.

Republicans stand for free markets, individual liberty, the Constitution, decentralization, states rights, and peace through strength.

Regardless of your take on the NRA, the majority (including NRA members) are closer in-line with what Clinton and Sanders say in this regard.

Support for gun control has declined significantly since Sandy Hook. Whenever there's a mass shooting, support for gun control spikes up temporarily but then most people go back to disliking the gun control lobby.

Democrat gun control policies are idiotic. We already have background checks and they failed to prevent mass shooters. It wasn't the gun show loophole or private purchaser loophole that enabled the mass shooters.

Who gets the middle wins the race. It really is that simple.

Romney won the overwhelming majority of Independents and still lost. He lost because he didn't win the Republican vote.

Obama is far more to the left than Romney was to the right. Romney was ultra-moderate. Reagan was so far right, his first endorsement was Ron Paul.

"Of course, we all remember President Dole, and President McCain, and President Romney."

-- Ted Cruz
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
TBR
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10/14/2015 9:00:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Said it before, I will say it again. Put your most "pure" conservative up. Please. When that goes down in flames, don't come back telling me it was everything BUT the policies.
Wylted
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10/14/2015 9:23:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 3:51:12 PM, TBR wrote:
I love Sanders, and am willing to suffer the arguments to make him my next president, but he needed to really show last night. He needed to be great! Well, I think I was wrong.

By any objective measure, Bernie did a mediocre job, and Hillary did a great job. It hurt me to watch and know in my heart that she was going to come out of this the clear choice. But WAIT! Not so fast! Looks like the people, you know - the ones that vote - thought Sanders was GREAT!

Yup. Looks like I am on my way to a long general election cycle of volunteerism. Go Bernie!!!

You start offering people several trillion dollars in free stuff, they'll typically think you're great. I'm surprised with all these entitled babies in the United States, that he doesn't have 90% of the vote.
TBR
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10/14/2015 9:24:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 9:23:10 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/14/2015 3:51:12 PM, TBR wrote:
I love Sanders, and am willing to suffer the arguments to make him my next president, but he needed to really show last night. He needed to be great! Well, I think I was wrong.

By any objective measure, Bernie did a mediocre job, and Hillary did a great job. It hurt me to watch and know in my heart that she was going to come out of this the clear choice. But WAIT! Not so fast! Looks like the people, you know - the ones that vote - thought Sanders was GREAT!

Yup. Looks like I am on my way to a long general election cycle of volunteerism. Go Bernie!!!

You start offering people several trillion dollars in free stuff, they'll typically think you're great. I'm surprised with all these entitled babies in the United States, that he doesn't have 90% of the vote.

The republicans offer the same money. Just to different folk.
Wylted
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10/14/2015 9:28:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"In 2014, I used the local Tea Party voter guide and voted for Republicans, Democrats, & Independents in the primaries and the election."

I use these guides also, so I don't have to do as much research on the local candidates. I didn't use the tea party guide though. Not that I wouldn't, just that there wasn't one available to me
Wylted
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10/14/2015 9:31:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"The republicans offer the same money. Just to different folk."

I was just thinking that earlier, and it was eating at me pretty bad. Maybe that's what politicians do, just offer free stuff to win votes. Maybe it's a good thing that America is becoming more and more of a scientific dictatorship.
GeoLaureate8
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10/14/2015 9:45:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 9:00:52 PM, TBR wrote:
Said it before, I will say it again. Put your most "pure" conservative up. Please. When that goes down in flames, don't come back telling me it was everything BUT the policies.

Let's say your prediction is correct, what do we have to lose? The moderate strategy is a proven repeat failure. Why should we do it again?

It was the radical right wing Tea Party movement that WON us the House and the Senate!

Tea Party brings success, moderates keep losing, and you want us to put up a moderate?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
1harderthanyouthink
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10/14/2015 9:52:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 9:45:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/14/2015 9:00:52 PM, TBR wrote:
Said it before, I will say it again. Put your most "pure" conservative up. Please. When that goes down in flames, don't come back telling me it was everything BUT the policies.

Let's say your prediction is correct, what do we have to lose? The moderate strategy is a proven repeat failure. Why should we do it again?

It was the radical right wing Tea Party movement that WON us the House and the Senate!

It was low turnout, not insane politicians.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
GeoLaureate8
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10/14/2015 10:32:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 9:52:14 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
It was low turnout,

How bout 2010? I don't think that was low turn out.

not insane politicians.

The Tea Party is last bastian of sanity in politics today.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
1harderthanyouthink
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10/14/2015 10:44:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/14/2015 10:32:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 10/14/2015 9:52:14 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
It was low turnout,

How bout 2010? I don't think that was low turn out.

It was below 50. Then when it went above 65 for 2012, Democrats gained...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King