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Double standard time.

Sieben
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9/19/2010 5:47:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
==Roleplaying==
Libertarians: We support the free market because of theory and some good historical successes
Lefties: Oh yeah? Well my professor said that coal miners in some obscure part of america had it pretty bad. I guess that means the market fails.
Libertarians: Well, I don't have time to do revisionist history, so I don't have an answer to this because afaik it actually happened.
Lefties: Now I will use this one example to argue against lolssaiz faire.

==Role Reversal==
Lefties: I support the government because it can do some good things.
Libertarians: Oh yeah? Well are lots of examples of failed governments murdering millions of people.
Lefties: Oh well I don't advocate that *particular* kind of government. I only advocate government when its good.

So if government advocates don't have to bite every failure of government because they only support good government, why do free market advocates have to bite the failures of free markets? Why can't we say "lolmg we only support good free markets! Exploited coal miners are not what I had in mind!"?

HUH?

Its
a
double
standard

Obviously we don't want to default to the lame statist position where we only advocate switzerland and ignore russia and china. We will continue to accept market failures as part of our package. Statists should do the same.

But no seriously keep advocating switzerland because you like its outcomes even though you have no idea how swiss government works.

[reply to this by going to switzerland's wikipedia article, but instead of using the wikipedia page as a citation, use wikipedia's links at the bottom so it looks like you did some research]
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MikeLoviN
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9/19/2010 5:54:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Lolwut??

There are many different forms of government. On the other hand, a free market is a free market. You can't argue against all forms of government like you can against the one and only free market. I get your point, but the analogy seems poor.
LaissezFaire
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9/19/2010 5:56:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
[reply to this by going to switzerland's wikipedia article, but instead of using the wikipedia page as a citation, use wikipedia's links at the bottom so it looks like you did some research]

Other people do this!? And I thought I was so clever for doing this for all of my high school papers.
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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Reasoning
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9/19/2010 5:56:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I agree but I wish you'd used a term other than "Leftie".
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
InsertNameHere
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9/19/2010 5:56:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The way I see it, you don't even need to eliminate the state anyway to have a Free Market. You can have a state that is there to protect the civilians, etc. while keeping out of the economy. That's pretty much what I believe now. To quote Panda, I'm essencially a Tea Bagger.
LaissezFaire
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9/19/2010 5:58:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 5:56:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
The way I see it, you don't even need to eliminate the state anyway to have a Free Market. You can have a state that is there to protect the civilians, etc. while keeping out of the economy. That's pretty much what I believe now. To quote Panda, I'm essencially a Tea Bagger.

And why don't you consider courts and police part of the economy, like any other industry? Also, tea baggers don't want the government out of the economy, they just want the Democrats out of the economy. They're fine with Republican's screwing up the economy.
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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Sieben
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9/19/2010 5:59:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
There are many different types of corporations and businesses and free associations (fraternities, communes) that are all free-market friendly. How can you claim the free market is "homogeneous"?

Free market --> different types of free market organizations
Government --> different types of government

Libertarians see a common thread through all these examples. Free markets are characterized by respect for property rights and self ownership. States are territorial monopolies on arbitration. We think those base properties determine outcomes. Statists think the base properties don't matter for some reason, and only focus on specific examples.

So why do libertarians have to apologise for their meta-system (property rights, self ownership) while statists don't have to bite their meta-system of monopoly arbitration?
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Sieben
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9/19/2010 6:01:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 5:58:27 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:

And why don't you consider courts and police part of the economy, like any other industry? Also, tea baggers don't want the government out of the economy, they just want the Democrats out of the economy. They're fine with Republican's screwing up the economy.

"I'm going to give the government all the guns, but hey don't fund public education that's too much government"
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InsertNameHere
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9/19/2010 6:01:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 5:58:27 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 9/19/2010 5:56:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
The way I see it, you don't even need to eliminate the state anyway to have a Free Market. You can have a state that is there to protect the civilians, etc. while keeping out of the economy. That's pretty much what I believe now. To quote Panda, I'm essencially a Tea Bagger.

And why don't you consider courts and police part of the economy, like any other industry? Also, tea baggers don't want the government out of the economy, they just want the Democrats out of the economy. They're fine with Republican's screwing up the economy.

Well as a social authoritarian I naturally support strict laws so there needs to be a strong justice system run by the state. However, I see that having the state in the economy can mess things up. I could almost be a Republican if I wasn't so Anti-war.
Sieben
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9/19/2010 6:02:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 5:56:44 PM, Reasoning wrote:
I agree but I wish you'd used a term other than "Leftie".

Apologies. You and Roderick Long are the main reasons why I've decided to pitch the free market as a left-wing idea.

I meant it in the college liberal way :)
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LaissezFaire
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9/19/2010 6:03:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:01:29 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/19/2010 5:58:27 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 9/19/2010 5:56:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
The way I see it, you don't even need to eliminate the state anyway to have a Free Market. You can have a state that is there to protect the civilians, etc. while keeping out of the economy. That's pretty much what I believe now. To quote Panda, I'm essencially a Tea Bagger.

And why don't you consider courts and police part of the economy, like any other industry? Also, tea baggers don't want the government out of the economy, they just want the Democrats out of the economy. They're fine with Republican's screwing up the economy.

Well as a social authoritarian I naturally support strict laws so there needs to be a strong justice system run by the state. However, I see that having the state in the economy can mess things up. I could almost be a Republican if I wasn't so Anti-war.

And what business is it of yours if someone wants to do, say, drugs? Why do you think that the government should throw people in jail in order to "protect" them from themselves?
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
MikeLoviN
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9/19/2010 6:03:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:01:29 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Well as a social authoritarian I naturally support strict laws so there needs to be a strong justice system run by the state. However, I see that having the state in the economy can mess things up. I could almost be a Republican if I wasn't so Anti-war.

Get out of my country
InsertNameHere
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9/19/2010 6:04:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:03:33 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:01:29 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Well as a social authoritarian I naturally support strict laws so there needs to be a strong justice system run by the state. However, I see that having the state in the economy can mess things up. I could almost be a Republican if I wasn't so Anti-war.

Get out of my country

I'm probably leaving Canada eventually anyway. I should become a nomad and just travel around to different countries. ^_^
LaissezFaire
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9/19/2010 6:05:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:03:33 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:01:29 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Well as a social authoritarian I naturally support strict laws so there needs to be a strong justice system run by the state. However, I see that having the state in the economy can mess things up. I could almost be a Republican if I wasn't so Anti-war.

Get out of my country

Your social opinions are just as fascist as hers. You both oppose abortion, support gay marriage, and support the legalization of some drugs but not others.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
MikeLoviN
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9/19/2010 6:06:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:04:51 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm probably leaving Canada eventually anyway. I should become a nomad and just travel around to different countries. ^_^

I hear Iran and North Korea are pretty welcoming places...
Volkov
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9/19/2010 6:06:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:05:36 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Your social opinions are just as fascist as hers. You both oppose abortion, support gay marriage, and support the legalization of some drugs but not others.

Supporting equal civil rights is fascist?
InsertNameHere
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9/19/2010 6:07:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:03:05 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:01:29 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Well as a social authoritarian I naturally support strict laws so there needs to be a strong justice system run by the state. However, I see that having the state in the economy can mess things up. I could almost be a Republican if I wasn't so Anti-war.

And what business is it of yours if someone wants to do, say, drugs? Why do you think that the government should throw people in jail in order to "protect" them from themselves?

It is the state's business when there's the risk of people driving intoxicated or something which can endanger other people's lives. As much as drug advocates don't like to admit it, drug use isn't victimless. People have and continue to be killed by the idiotic actions of intoxicated people. Sure, alcohol does the same, but that's why we need stiffer penalties on that too.
LaissezFaire
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9/19/2010 6:08:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:06:57 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:05:36 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Your social opinions are just as fascist as hers. You both oppose abortion, support gay marriage, and support the legalization of some drugs but not others.

Supporting equal civil rights is fascist?

No. . . I said that their positions were equally fascist, not that they were all necessarily fascist.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
InsertNameHere
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9/19/2010 6:08:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:06:24 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:04:51 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm probably leaving Canada eventually anyway. I should become a nomad and just travel around to different countries. ^_^

I hear Iran and North Korea are pretty welcoming places...

I'm not into the whole Communism and theocracy thing.
Anarcho
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9/19/2010 6:08:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:08:26 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:06:24 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:04:51 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm probably leaving Canada eventually anyway. I should become a nomad and just travel around to different countries. ^_^

I hear Iran and North Korea are pretty welcoming places...

I'm not into the whole Communism and theocracy thing.

Neither are Communist.
InsertNameHere wrote: "If we evolved from apes then why are apes still around?

This is semi-serious btw. It's something that seems strange to me. You'd think that entire species would cease to exist if other ones evolved from them."

Anarcho wrote: *facepalm*
LaissezFaire
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9/19/2010 6:09:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:07:25 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:03:05 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:01:29 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Well as a social authoritarian I naturally support strict laws so there needs to be a strong justice system run by the state. However, I see that having the state in the economy can mess things up. I could almost be a Republican if I wasn't so Anti-war.

And what business is it of yours if someone wants to do, say, drugs? Why do you think that the government should throw people in jail in order to "protect" them from themselves?

It is the state's business when there's the risk of people driving intoxicated or something which can endanger other people's lives. As much as drug advocates don't like to admit it, drug use isn't victimless. People have and continue to be killed by the idiotic actions of intoxicated people. Sure, alcohol does the same, but that's why we need stiffer penalties on that too.

Then stop people from driving intoxicated and endangering others. Just as alcohol is legal and drunk driving isn't, other drugs can be legal without legalizing intoxicated driving.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Volkov
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9/19/2010 6:09:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Anyways, @ OP

You're generalizing "lefties" while complaining about generalizations. Don't you think that's kind of ironic?

I agree that it's stupid if such a double standard does exist, and if it does, then that's a sad fact. Yet, can you prove libertarians don't do it well? Or any person of any ideological allegiance? It's not the ideology that does it - it's uppity a-holes that think they're God's gift to the world, and there is a tonne of them along the entire spectrum.
InsertNameHere
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9/19/2010 6:09:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:08:53 PM, Anarcho wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:08:26 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:06:24 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:04:51 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm probably leaving Canada eventually anyway. I should become a nomad and just travel around to different countries. ^_^

I hear Iran and North Korea are pretty welcoming places...

I'm not into the whole Communism and theocracy thing.

Neither are Communist.

That's not the point.
InsertNameHere
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9/19/2010 6:10:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:09:13 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:

Then stop people from driving intoxicated and endangering others. Just as alcohol is legal and drunk driving isn't, other drugs can be legal without legalizing intoxicated driving.

Or even better, stop them from doing it in the first place.
Volkov
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9/19/2010 6:10:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:08:17 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
No. . . I said that their positions were equally fascist, not that they were all necessarily fascist.

But, the fact that you included gay marriage into the sentence, along with restrictions on drug use and abortions, surely must not be an oversight on your part.
belle
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9/19/2010 6:11:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 5:47:33 PM, Sieben wrote:
a lot

the economic progression that takes place under a free market tends to increase the overall productivity of labor and through its own workings eliminate extremely poor working conditions (and reward the the more dangerous jobs with higher wages). on the other hand, gov't interference tends to create the need for more government interference, thus perpetuating and worsening the inefficiencies rather than gradually eliminating them.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
LaissezFaire
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9/19/2010 6:12:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:10:40 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:09:13 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:

Then stop people from driving intoxicated and endangering others. Just as alcohol is legal and drunk driving isn't, other drugs can be legal without legalizing intoxicated driving.

Or even better, stop them from doing it in the first place.

If they are doing it in the privacy of their own home, not hurting anyone, then why? What is your justification for banning that? Even if it did stop some people from driving intoxicated, it kills many more people by forcing drugs onto the black market, which, as you can clearly see in Mexico and other Latin American countries, is extremely violent.
Should we subsidize education?
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http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Sieben
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9/19/2010 6:12:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:09:45 PM, Volkov wrote:
Anyways, @ OP

You're generalizing "lefties" while complaining about generalizations. Don't you think that's kind of ironic?
The OP applies to anyone calling for government intervention. In theory, it could apply to libertarians who only liked hong kong and don't touch sweatshops versus a liberal democrat who defended the essence of statism. In practice this never happens though..

I agree that it's stupid if such a double standard does exist, and if it does, then that's a sad fact. Yet, can you prove libertarians don't do it well? Or any person of any ideological allegiance? It's not the ideology that does it - it's uppity a-holes that think they're God's gift to the world, and there is a tonne of them along the entire spectrum.

Well, libertarians usually get the worst of both worlds. We apologise for our meta-systems without making you defend yours. Then you turn around and advocate specific examples of statism and turn to counterexamples if we show examples of good free markets.
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LaissezFaire
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9/19/2010 6:14:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/19/2010 6:10:43 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/19/2010 6:08:17 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
No. . . I said that their positions were equally fascist, not that they were all necessarily fascist.

But, the fact that you included gay marriage into the sentence, along with restrictions on drug use and abortions, surely must not be an oversight on your part.

The point was that they had the same positions on social issues, so it made no sense for him to tell her to get out of his country because of her social authoritarianism. If her positions are too authoritarian, so are his. I'm not sure what you mean by it not being an oversight on my part.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.