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National Health Care.

Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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9/21/2010 5:11:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Your thoughts upon it? I am very undecided right about now.
Personally leaning towards individuals buying their own health care, and for those who have mental illness/handicapped and unable to work to have free health care.
My empathetic side is getting in my way again.
I miss the old members.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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9/21/2010 5:14:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
No.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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9/21/2010 5:24:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
In principle, universal health care is simply a redistributionist policy like any other. The same arguments for and against wealth redistro apply here.

I prefer non-governmental social means to help the poor, who have been assimilated into the welfare state as a means of buying votes. http://libertariannation.org...

In reality, American healthcare is simply a way to funnel more $$$ into the pockets of well connected health-industry companies.

In other large countries, I would say that healthcare falls more under the same category as most american welfare programs, like food stamps, with no ulterior corporate benefactors. Just a vote-buying scheme.

In other small countries, with high mobility, I would say that healthcare is a means to attract more taxpaying workers to the country. See luxembourg.
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Atheism
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9/21/2010 5:30:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 5:24:23 PM, Sieben wrote:
In principle, universal health care is simply a redistributionist policy like any other. The same arguments for and against wealth redistro apply here.

I prefer non-governmental social means to help the poor, who have been assimilated into the welfare state as a means of buying votes. http://libertariannation.org...

In reality, American healthcare is simply a way to funnel more $$$ into the pockets of well connected health-industry companies.

In other large countries, I would say that healthcare falls more under the same category as most american welfare programs, like food stamps, with no ulterior corporate benefactors. Just a vote-buying scheme.

In other small countries, with high mobility, I would say that healthcare is a means to attract more taxpaying workers to the country. See luxembourg.
So basically, you say that, in America, it is a way to get money from wealthier individuals to the money of Health Care Companies?
Thanks for the input!
I miss the old members.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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9/21/2010 5:47:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 5:30:37 PM, Atheism wrote:
So basically, you say that, in America, it is a way to get money from wealthier individuals to the money of Health Care Companies?
Thanks for the input!
Err no... This isn't rich group A extorting rich group B.

Most federal expenditures are paid out of debt/inflation, i.e. taking value from holders of cash. The only people who hold cash are poor and middle class...
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PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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9/21/2010 7:02:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 5:11:07 PM, Atheism wrote:
Your thoughts upon it? I am very undecided right about now.
Personally leaning towards individuals buying their own health care, and for those who have mental illness/handicapped and unable to work to have free health care.
My empathetic side is getting in my way again.:

Some say that healthcare is an indispensible thing and on that basis should be free (of course the word "free" here is a little tricky). But you know, food and is a more pertinent commodity and the government doesn't pay for that. I don't work, I don't make money. I don't make money, I don't eat. I don't eat, I die.

I think people forget that while we don't live in the wild like the rest of the animals that we are somehow exempt from the same laws of nature that governs our furry cousins. It still exists, and this world doesn't give a sh!t about you with or without national healthcare. Nature still abhors the weak. Whether it should or should not is irrelevant to the cold-hearted fact. Nobody is going to care more about you than you. The government and insurance providers have no compunction with cutting corners when it comes to your health to save money. It's just easier for them for you to die and go away.

Wow, that was cynical and bleak....
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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9/21/2010 7:10:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 7:02:54 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 9/21/2010 5:11:07 PM, Atheism wrote:
Your thoughts upon it? I am very undecided right about now.
Personally leaning towards individuals buying their own health care, and for those who have mental illness/handicapped and unable to work to have free health care.
My empathetic side is getting in my way again.:

Some say that healthcare is an indispensible thing and on that basis should be free (of course the word "free" here is a little tricky). But you know, food and is a more pertinent commodity and the government doesn't pay for that. I don't work, I don't make money. I don't make money, I don't eat. I don't eat, I die.

I think people forget that while we don't live in the wild like the rest of the animals that we are somehow exempt from the same laws of nature that governs our furry cousins. It still exists, and this world doesn't give a sh!t about you with or without national healthcare. Nature still abhors the weak. Whether it should or should not is irrelevant to the cold-hearted fact. Nobody is going to care more about you than you. The government and insurance providers have no compunction with cutting corners when it comes to your health to save money. It's just easier for them for you to die and go away.

Wow, that was cynical and bleak....

Dead people don't pay money to insurance providers.

The government on the other hand...
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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9/21/2010 7:13:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Dead people don't pay money to insurance providers.

The government on the other hand...:

Ah, you are wise beyond your years!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/21/2010 7:29:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 5:47:12 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/21/2010 5:30:37 PM, Atheism wrote:
So basically, you say that, in America, it is a way to get money from wealthier individuals to the money of Health Care Companies?
Thanks for the input!
Err no... This isn't rich group A extorting rich group B.

Most federal expenditures are paid out of debt/inflation, i.e. taking value from holders of cash. The only people who hold cash are poor and middle class...

Inflation helps debtors and hurts creditors. Guess who is never a creditor.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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9/21/2010 7:56:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 7:29:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Inflation helps debtors and hurts creditors. Guess who is never a creditor.
Uhh... you usually write inflation into long term contracts, like loans. Creditors are not so stupid :P
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comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/21/2010 8:27:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 5:11:07 PM, Atheism wrote:
Your thoughts upon it? I am very undecided right about now.
Personally leaning towards individuals buying their own health care, and for those who have mental illness/handicapped and unable to work to have free health care.
My empathetic side is getting in my way again.

It is extremely normative, but keeping that in mind, we need a more pragmatic approach to healthcare.
Sieben
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9/21/2010 8:32:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 8:24:48 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
I love my free health care :)

You don't feel bad that other people are forced to pay for it?
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nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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9/21/2010 8:34:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 8:32:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/21/2010 8:24:48 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
I love my free health care :)

You don't feel bad that other people are forced to pay for it?

No. Other people are using it.
Sieben
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9/21/2010 8:40:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 8:34:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 9/21/2010 8:32:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/21/2010 8:24:48 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
I love my free health care :)

You don't feel bad that other people are forced to pay for it?

No. Other people are using it.

So the next time I am at the hospital, can I tell them to send you the bill?

There are net tax producers, and net tax consumers, no?
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nonentity
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9/21/2010 8:47:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 8:40:52 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/21/2010 8:34:12 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 9/21/2010 8:32:15 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/21/2010 8:24:48 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
I love my free health care :)

You don't feel bad that other people are forced to pay for it?

No. Other people are using it.

So the next time I am at the hospital, can I tell them to send you the bill?


That's not quite how it works...
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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9/21/2010 8:53:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 8:47:17 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:

That's not quite how it works...

The principle is the same.

You dropped my question though - isn't the system made up of net tax producers and net tax consumers?

And I extend -- isn't there something morally wrong about forcing people to pay in to a national system?
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comoncents
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9/21/2010 9:01:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 8:53:25 PM, Sieben wrote:
And I extend -- isn't there something morally wrong about forcing people to pay in to a national system?

For some, no.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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9/21/2010 9:01:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 9:00:16 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Nations with universal healthcare have healthier populations than those which do not.

Prove that the correlation can be attributed to your proposed cause.
Sieben
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9/21/2010 9:07:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 9:01:16 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 9/21/2010 8:53:25 PM, Sieben wrote:
And I extend -- isn't there something morally wrong about forcing people to pay in to a national system?

For some, no.

I would never threaten you for something I needed. I might be forced to steal from you at the edge of death, but I would do everything to make amends afterward.
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nonentity
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9/21/2010 9:08:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 8:53:25 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/21/2010 8:47:17 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:

That's not quite how it works...

The principle is the same.

You dropped my question though - isn't the system made up of net tax producers and net tax consumers?


On average, people will probably be spending less on their own health care than they'd spend in taxes. Of course, I can only speak from personal experience so I can't say I know the definitive answer to your question.

And I extend -- isn't there something morally wrong about forcing people to pay in to a national system?

How so?

Out of curiosity, what do Americans do when someone is dying by gunshot wound? Check to see if he can afford surgery first or do it anyway and bill him later?
J.Kenyon
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9/21/2010 9:09:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 9:08:43 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
On average, people will probably be spending less on their own health care than they'd spend in taxes.

2+2=5?
nonentity
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9/21/2010 9:10:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 9:09:50 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/21/2010 9:08:43 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
On average, people will probably be spending less on their own health care than they'd spend in taxes.

2+2=5?

Can you explain what you mean?
J.Kenyon
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9/21/2010 9:12:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 9:10:41 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:

Can you explain what you mean?

It's impossible for the total cost of the services rendered to exceed the tax revenue.
Sieben
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9/21/2010 9:12:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 9:08:43 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 9/21/2010 8:53:25 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/21/2010 8:47:17 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:

That's not quite how it works...

The principle is the same.

You dropped my question though - isn't the system made up of net tax producers and net tax consumers?


On average, people will probably be spending less on their own health care than they'd spend in taxes. Of course, I can only speak from personal experience so I can't say I know the definitive answer to your question.

No experience needed. Everyone pays in X% of their income to support the system, and consumes Y% of the benefits. For some people, X > Y. For others, X < Y. Its redistributionist.

And I extend -- isn't there something morally wrong about forcing people to pay in to a national system?

How so?

Well, if I came into your house and robbed you, that would be the initiation of force. Its just looks a lot less violent when the government does it because its all electronic. The principle is the same.

Out of curiosity, what do Americans do when someone is dying by gunshot wound? Check to see if he can afford surgery first or do it anyway and bill him later?

I would help him, but I would not force others to. People who want private health care are not just selfish and callous. We advocate the free market because we think it brings about the highest quality of living for everyone. You may say that we are wrong, and that is a different topic, but you cannot say we are inhumane.
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Reasoning
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9/21/2010 9:16:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
A public option could arguably be considered more libertarian than the present system.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
comoncents
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9/21/2010 9:19:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 9:07:36 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/21/2010 9:01:16 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 9/21/2010 8:53:25 PM, Sieben wrote:
And I extend -- isn't there something morally wrong about forcing people to pay in to a national system?

For some, no.

I would never threaten you for something I needed. I might be forced to steal from you at the edge of death, but I would do everything to make amends afterward.

It is all on how the individual defines "moral".
You define it differently then they do.
Does it make them right and you wrong?
Does it make them wrong and you right?
nonentity
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9/21/2010 9:23:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/21/2010 9:12:25 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 9/21/2010 9:10:41 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:

Can you explain what you mean?

It's impossible for the total cost of the services rendered to exceed the tax revenue.

True, some people will spend more in taxes than they will receive in benefits. It's there in case it's needed. I personally would rather spend a few dollars a month for peace of mind.