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The Money Is Gone!

HandsOff
Posts: 504
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9/22/2010 10:50:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I hear liberals (and war mongers) talk about how money should be the last consideration in determining whether we ought to implement our grand ideas. This mentality explains the state of our nation's finances. Our nations debt has grown in direct proportion to the acceptance of fiscal liberalism from both the left and the right. Forget terrorism and global warming. Financial colllapse is the most immediate threat we face today. When the crap really hits the fan unaffordable wars and green agendas will be luxuries of the past. We will be left to contemplate what we truly need versus that which we think we ought to have. We will eventually see that without a reliable stream of capital (ie that which is not borrowed) there can be no sustainable agenda, other than one of fiscal reform. The party's over, and so are your pricey wars and social programs.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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9/23/2010 12:39:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If our green agendas were luxuries, then they would be moot in the first place.

Problem solved: get rid of currency.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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9/23/2010 8:43:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 5:21:36 AM, Sieben wrote:
What is currency

money, legal tender.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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9/23/2010 8:45:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 5:21:36 AM, Sieben wrote:
What is currency

It's about how current (or recent, modern) society is. Basically if you get rid of currency society goes backwards towards the stone age.

Sarcastic m93samman is sarcastic.
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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9/23/2010 8:46:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/22/2010 10:50:15 PM, HandsOff wrote:
I hear liberals (and war mongers) talk about how money should be the last consideration in determining whether we ought to implement our grand ideas. This mentality explains the state of our nation's finances. Our nations debt has grown in direct proportion to the acceptance of fiscal liberalism from both the left and the right. Forget terrorism and global warming. Financial colllapse is the most immediate threat we face today. When the crap really hits the fan unaffordable wars and green agendas will be luxuries of the past. We will be left to contemplate what we truly need versus that which we think we ought to have. We will eventually see that without a reliable stream of capital (ie that which is not borrowed) there can be no sustainable agenda, other than one of fiscal reform. The party's over, and so are your pricey wars and social programs.

pursuing the green agenda is part of pursuing fiscal reform. its part of pursuing energy Independence from other nations, and in the long run, cheaper sources of power. the very concept of recycling is the ultimate ideal of thriftiness. making the most out of your resources rather than condemning most of it to waist.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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9/23/2010 9:04:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I wasn't asking you guys I was asking Rob1billion

Currency = money = legal tender is a circular definition.

m93samman's definition is pretty sweet tho
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HandsOff
Posts: 504
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9/23/2010 9:49:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 12:39:11 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
If our green agendas were luxuries, then they would be moot in the first place.


Sustainable spending is paid for with sustainable cash flow, not borrowed money. Sustainable cash flow brought about by reasonable and fair taxation. So you can't tax the difference out the American people when borrowing ends. Hence, programs that exist due to borrowed money will eventually disappear. By "luxury agendas" I mean any government expenditure that would likely be eliminated once we were forced to operate on a pay-as-we-go basis. I believe most of the green agenda would fit into this catagory.
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/23/2010 9:56:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 5:21:36 AM, Sieben wrote:
What is currency

Baby don't buy me.
Baby don't buy me.
No more.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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9/23/2010 10:39:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 9:49:46 AM, HandsOff wrote:
At 9/23/2010 12:39:11 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
If our green agendas were luxuries, then they would be moot in the first place.


Sustainable spending is paid for with sustainable cash flow, not borrowed money. Sustainable cash flow brought about by reasonable and fair taxation. So you can't tax the difference out the American people when borrowing ends. Hence, programs that exist due to borrowed money will eventually disappear. By "luxury agendas" I mean any government expenditure that would likely be eliminated once we were forced to operate on a pay-as-we-go basis. I believe most of the green agenda would fit into this catagory.

... Well that's hard to say. The "green agenda" in your eyes is obviously a concerted effort by a certain political faction to carry out their perceived ends of "greenness." This is a typical right-wing perspective and it is unfortunately accurate to a point simply because of how our system has evolved.

The green agenda will always be doomed to fail if this is how it continues to operate. I am a staunch environmentalist in that it is the field in which I study and I understand well all the problems we are going to face if we ignore the externalities of our actions. However I'm not all about creating a regulatory scheme to be administered by the biggest agency in the country to implement these ideas; just like police are a waste of effort, policing businesses is a waste of effort - businesses can buck the regulations unless we pour more and more money into the EPA to keep them true. This is unsustainable as well. The only hope we have is to align the interests of businesses as to include the externalities that they create - which of course my system does perfectly. Everyone's interests must overlap because everyones interests DO overlap. Sustainable communities do not outsource externalities and therefore capture them right at the source, at least for the most part.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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9/23/2010 10:41:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 9:04:26 AM, Sieben wrote:
I wasn't asking you guys I was asking Rob1billion

Currency = money = legal tender is a circular definition.

Are you talking to me? Are you talking to me? I don't see anyone else around here, so you must be talking to me.

Currency = dollars = cents = legal tender = money = yen = currency
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/23/2010 10:43:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/22/2010 11:45:38 PM, TPF wrote:
Cool story bro.

What he said. I've only heard Sarah Palin rant more illegibly.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/23/2010 12:21:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 9:56:25 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 9/23/2010 5:21:36 AM, Sieben wrote:
What is currency

Baby don't buy me.
Baby don't buy me.
No more.

R_R wins this thread.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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9/23/2010 12:42:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 10:41:14 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 9/23/2010 9:04:26 AM, Sieben wrote:
I wasn't asking you guys I was asking Rob1billion

Currency = money = legal tender is a circular definition.

Are you talking to me? Are you talking to me? I don't see anyone else around here, so you must be talking to me.

Currency = dollars = cents = legal tender = money = yen = currency
Dollars, cents, money, yen are types of currency. They are not the definition of currency.
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Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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9/23/2010 12:51:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 12:42:09 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/23/2010 10:41:14 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 9/23/2010 9:04:26 AM, Sieben wrote:
I wasn't asking you guys I was asking Rob1billion

Currency = money = legal tender is a circular definition.

Are you talking to me? Are you talking to me? I don't see anyone else around here, so you must be talking to me.

Currency = dollars = cents = legal tender = money = yen = currency
Dollars, cents, money, yen are types of currency. They are not the definition of currency.

I wiki'd it

"The origin of currency is the creation of a circulating medium of exchange based on a unit of account which quickly becomes a store of value - and it's complete horse manure." - Taken from Wikipedia.org on September 23rd, 2010
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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9/23/2010 12:56:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 12:51:16 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:

"The origin of currency is the creation of a circulating medium of exchange based on a unit of account which quickly becomes a store of value - and it's complete horse manure." - Taken from Wikipedia.org on September 23rd, 2010
Thank you. Basic economics and political philosophy is like pulling teeth on this board...

So you want to abolish currency, which means you want to abolish units of account that store value?
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Rob1Billion
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9/23/2010 1:04:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 12:56:57 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/23/2010 12:51:16 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:

"The origin of currency is the creation of a circulating medium of exchange based on a unit of account which quickly becomes a store of value - and it's complete horse manure." - Taken from Wikipedia.org on September 23rd, 2010
Thank you. Basic economics and political philosophy is like pulling teeth on this board...

Tell me about it.

So you want to abolish currency, which means you want to abolish units of account that store value?

Exactly. "Storing" value is what leads to income disparity. I personally am against money in all forms but I am open to the possibility that a form which disallows saving could be employed to circumvent this.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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9/23/2010 1:27:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 1:04:43 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:

Exactly. "Storing" value is what leads to income disparity. I personally am against money in all forms but I am open to the possibility that a form which disallows saving could be employed to circumvent this.
You're going the wrong way with this. ANYTHING can be used for money. It is simply the most saleable good. Cigarette have been used as currency. Do you want to outlaw tobacco? "Favors" and "promises" could be currency, do you want to abolish those too? That no one can ever accumulate favors because it would lead to his elevation in society!

Everything is currency, some stuff is more liquid than others. Please don't get rid of everything :(
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Rob1Billion
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9/23/2010 1:34:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 1:27:18 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/23/2010 1:04:43 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:

Exactly. "Storing" value is what leads to income disparity. I personally am against money in all forms but I am open to the possibility that a form which disallows saving could be employed to circumvent this.
You're going the wrong way with this. ANYTHING can be used for money. It is simply the most saleable good. Cigarette have been used as currency. Do you want to outlaw tobacco? "Favors" and "promises" could be currency, do you want to abolish those too? That no one can ever accumulate favors because it would lead to his elevation in society!

Everything is currency, some stuff is more liquid than others. Please don't get rid of everything :(

I advocate getting rid of purchasing power in its entirety. All goods are free. We would live in relatively small, sustainable communities where all goods are produced locally and people can pretty much grab what they want. Since everyone has access to the same goods, there aren't people who have "more" than others so there exists really no incentive to steal or over-consume. What I usually end up arguing about at this point is what the incentives are to produce... Shall we follow suit?
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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9/23/2010 1:44:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 1:34:31 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 9/23/2010 1:27:18 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 9/23/2010 1:04:43 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:

Exactly. "Storing" value is what leads to income disparity. I personally am against money in all forms but I am open to the possibility that a form which disallows saving could be employed to circumvent this.
You're going the wrong way with this. ANYTHING can be used for money. It is simply the most saleable good. Cigarette have been used as currency. Do you want to outlaw tobacco? "Favors" and "promises" could be currency, do you want to abolish those too? That no one can ever accumulate favors because it would lead to his elevation in society!

Everything is currency, some stuff is more liquid than others. Please don't get rid of everything :(

I advocate getting rid of purchasing power in its entirety. All goods are free.
Goods *ARE* purchasing power. You just don't want anyone to OWN goods. So you shouldn't say "I want to abolish money", you should say "money ought to be owned collectively".

We would live in relatively small, sustainable communities where all goods are produced locally
No division of labor no society. I don't want to be part of your "great leap forward".

and people can pretty much grab what they want.
How do you know there will be enough for everyone? They will produce it? How do you know how much to produce? Does everyone keep producing until all their desires are met?

Since everyone has access to the same goods, there aren't people who have "more" than others so there exists really no incentive to steal or over-consume.
*Thank god we're equal*. I was really worried about equality.

What I usually end up arguing about at this point is what the incentives are to produce... Shall we follow suit?
I'll keep hammering on economics for a while. You only just recently articulated your political ideals, so I don't know what all the rules are. Once I know the rules I can start predicting outcomes based on incentives.
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Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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9/23/2010 1:48:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Filthy commie.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/23/2010 2:04:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Money is a non-existent, theoretical force that has never, does not, and will never exist except in theory on computer screens [and paper]! People die because they don't have enough digits on a computer screen!" - David Icke
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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9/23/2010 2:16:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 2:04:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Money is a non-existent, theoretical force that has never, does not, and will never exist except in theory on computer screens [and paper]! People die because they don't have enough digits on a computer screen!" - David Icke

O.o

For someone who is fairly competent in philosophy, you sure are blind to silly arguments when you quote your heroes.

Words are a non-existent, theoretical force that do not, and will never exist except in theory on computer screens (and paper!). People have died because they put a particular word on a computer screen!

Because words are imaginary. >.>
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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9/23/2010 2:21:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 2:04:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Money is a non-existent, theoretical force that has never, does not, and will never exist except in theory on computer screens [and paper]! People die because they don't have enough digits on a computer screen!" - David Icke

1. David Icke saying something doesn't automatically make it true.

2. Money is a means of exchange that was developed after people began to realize that bartering with perishables wasn't the most efficient form of commerce.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/23/2010 2:34:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 2:16:30 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 9/23/2010 2:04:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Money is a non-existent, theoretical force that has never, does not, and will never exist except in theory on computer screens [and paper]! People die because they don't have enough digits on a computer screen!" - David Icke

O.o

For someone who is fairly competent in philosophy, you sure are blind to silly arguments when you quote your heroes.

I have actually recently been questioning this statement and seriously reconsidering it, but it's food for thought nonetheless. I have been starting to realize the importance of money and it's efficacy.

Words are a non-existent, theoretical force that do not, and will never exist except in theory on computer screens (and paper!). People have died because they put a particular word on a computer screen!

Because words are imaginary. >.>

Words exist in the manner they are meant to exist.

The argument David Icke put forth is pointing out that money has no inherent value, only theoretical value. Which, to many, this isn't apparent or obvious, but it's a fact that no one would dispute.

The problem with your analogy is that words have inherent value so it's simply a false analogy.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/23/2010 2:36:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 2:21:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/23/2010 2:04:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Money is a non-existent, theoretical force that has never, does not, and will never exist except in theory on computer screens [and paper]! People die because they don't have enough digits on a computer screen!" - David Icke

1. David Icke saying something doesn't automatically make it true.

Strawman.

2. Money is a means of exchange that was developed after people began to realize that bartering with perishables wasn't the most efficient form of commerce.

False dichotomy.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cody_Franklin
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9/23/2010 2:48:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 2:36:03 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/23/2010 2:21:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/23/2010 2:04:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Money is a non-existent, theoretical force that has never, does not, and will never exist except in theory on computer screens [and paper]! People die because they don't have enough digits on a computer screen!" - David Icke

1. David Icke saying something doesn't automatically make it true.

Strawman.

Bullsh*t. You gave a quote; there wasn't an argument there to misrepresent.

2. Money is a means of exchange that was developed after people began to realize that bartering with perishables wasn't the most efficient form of commerce.

False dichotomy.

No it isn't. That's how money originated. If currency ceases to exist, you either have a barter economy, or you spout the sort of sh*t that Rob promotes.
Kinesis
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9/23/2010 2:53:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 2:34:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/23/2010 2:16:30 PM, Kinesis wrote:

The problem with your analogy is that words have inherent value so it's simply a false analogy.

Words have inherent value? That's ridiculous. Words are arbitrary symbols humans assign to particular things. They're an agreed upon conventions to represent certain concepts, they don't mean anything in and of themselves.