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Police Brutality...or Civilian Disrespect?

MakeSensePeopleDont
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10/29/2015 6:02:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There's been a ton of aggression toward officers for "using excessive force" against minors; most recently the girl in the classroom sitting in the desk.

Now I do see police "brutality" and excessive force used from time to time, for example the 8 year old boy who had handcuffs placed on his biceps behind his back so his elbows were touching. However, these teenagers as of late that have been tossed to the ground, handcuffed, etc.; was it REALLY police brutality?

Let's look specifically at the girl in the classroom desk in the news as of now: She was told numerous times to leave the classroom by the teacher, the principal and then the officer at separate occasions. She continued to refuse even after the officer ordered her to leave the classroom.

Now, understanding that she refused authoritative requests AND commands from authoritative figures on multiple levels, and ALSO understanding that the teen was impeding on the other students' right to an education at that point; if you DISAGREE with the actions taken by the officer, please explain what actions you feel SHOULD have been taken by the officer at that point in time.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/30/2015 2:31:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've come to the conclusion that it's because many civilians see cops as occupiers. You'll see more uses of force in the black community than the white community, because they don't truly feel like they are part of the system and will resist more often.

You see the most use of force incidents occuring towards native Americans. If blacks think the police force that actually does have a fair amount of blacks on it, are occupiers, imagine how native Anericans who have literally had their land stolen from them feel?

A solution to the large amount of use of force incidents isn't to create a mantra of "comply or die" or to punish cops for properly doing their job as is too often seen in the media now days. I think a solution should be to make sure that these people are fairly represented in and by government and the reduction of these incidents will naturally follow.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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10/30/2015 2:34:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 6:02:14 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
This is one of the most monumentally idiotic things I have ever seen, and you should feel bad about yourself for even saying it.

Let's explore why this post is monumentally idiotic, together:

There's been a ton of aggression toward officers for "using excessive force" against minors; most recently the girl in the classroom sitting in the desk.

Already I see that, from this line, and from the title, that you clearly are going to try to cast doubt on the rational perception of what transpired at that school in Columbia, South Carolina.

I assume you've seen the video, mainly because you're writing this post. I can only think that the reason you chose not to link the video is because you also know that any reasonable person will conclude, from watching it, that what you have to say with regard to that issue is garbage.

Let's look specifically at the girl in the classroom desk in the news as of now: She was told numerous times to leave the classroom by the teacher, the principal and then the officer at separate occasions. She continued to refuse even after the officer ordered her to leave the classroom.

That's about 1/5th of the salient facts. A teacher engaged in an argument with a student over a student's alleged use of a cell phone, in which the student refused to leave the room for allegedly using a cell phone in class. Whether the girl actually was using her cell phone, is neither known nor relevant. What is relevant is that this incident began over something as stupid and trivial as a power play between a teacher and a student with a cell phone.

At some point, the teacher ordered the student to leave the classroom. The teacher disrupted the educational process, by interrupting class, and spending time addressing a matter as stupid and trivial as a cell phone. Then, the teacher, being insulted because of the teenager's acting like a stupid teenager, overreacted and attempted to assert his/her authority over that student by calling the resource officer.

The police officer, upon arriving in the classroom, was not physically threatened in any way, at all, by that or any other student's actions. The student was docile, even if defiant. The student was a high school girl, who was black. The cop was a white man, fully grown, and endowed with a robust physique. This girl, sitting in her chair, was instructed a few times, to get out of her chair, and refused.

After the high school girl's refusal to get out of her chair, the cop picker her and the desk up, and threw her out of the desk, onto the ground, manhandled her, and placed his knee in her back before placing her under arrest, before a classroom filled with other children.

All of this occurred because the teacher exercised spectacularly poor judgment, and caused a conflict to be escalated in three ways, which resulted in a national incident that has reinvigorated our ongoing conversation about white cops and black kids, and the extent to which black kids are unsafe because of white cops.

Now, understanding that she refused authoritative requests AND commands from authoritative figures on multiple levels, and ALSO understanding that the teen was impeding on the other students' right to an education at that point; if you DISAGREE with the actions taken by the officer, please explain what actions you feel SHOULD have been taken by the officer at that point in time.

You are not only a complete moron, your values are clearly fvcked. Like, to read this I cannot help but judge you, and condemn you. Writing this means that you are a bad person, with bad values, bad priorities, and misguided beliefs. You are what is wrong with America, and there is no world in which your claims here have merit or value.

This is not about authority. It's about kids being kids, which sometimes means that they disobey. A teenager who doesn't listen does not entitle a cop to throw her out of her desk onto the ground in the middle of a classroom, before an entire class of students.

To talk about the teenager's impeding on other student's right to learn is to entertain idiocy. What interrupted the class is the teacher's manifestly poor judgment, in escalating the incident from something that is completely trivial, to something that involved the police, where the police then created a national incident by a police officer's use of egregiously excessive force.

What should the officer have done?

"Hey, Teach... you are seriously calling me because of a cell phone incident? Get your sh!t together and don't waste my time in the future."

or

"Teach, assign the kid after school detention and be done with it. This matter does not concern me."

That is what the cop SHOULD have done.

What the Teacher should NOT have done is interrupt class to address a cell phone issue. That's the kind of thing you ignore until the end of class, and then address it privately.

And you, MakeSensePeopleDont, need to think long and hard about what matters to you. If you are prepared to think that a male officer throwing a female student from her desk because of a cell phone incident, where the student presented no physical threat to the officer at any time, then you're a pretty fvcked up kind of guy.
Tsar of DDO
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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10/30/2015 3:09:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Is it possible to say that the girl in the classroom was being very disruptive and deserved to be kicked out of class, and that the officer used excessive force? It's not an either/or thing.
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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10/30/2015 4:14:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 2:34:52 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2015 6:02:14 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
This is one of the most monumentally idiotic things I have ever seen, and you should feel bad about yourself for even saying it.

Let's explore why this post is monumentally idiotic, together:

Thank you for your useless and childish opening; roid rage much?

There's been a ton of aggression toward officers for "using excessive force" against minors; most recently the girl in the classroom sitting in the desk.

Already I see that, from this line, and from the title, that you clearly are going to try to cast doubt on the rational perception of what transpired at that school in Columbia, South Carolina.

Breathe; it"s called an opinion for a reason. Here in America, opinions are perfectly acceptable, even applauded.

I assume you've seen the video, mainly because you're writing this post. I can only think that the reason you chose not to link the video is because you also know that any reasonable person will conclude, from watching it, that what you have to say with regard to that issue is garbage.

Well, I would figure that everyone would have seen it by now, if not on TV then on Facebook, Twitter, news reels on their phones, on yahoo, plastered all over the internet, on polls and forum threads on this very website, and in every other form of social interaction and on every piece of technology they have access to. However, you were too engulfed in your own ego while going all Alec Baldwin/Ray Rice on the post that you didn"t stop and think for even two seconds now weren"t you?

Just for you, since you believe you are the only person on the planet with technology"

http://louderwithcrowder.com...

Now I"m sorry for this, but you WILL have to read the site and watch not one, but TWO whole videos"stay calm...don"t break your computer a half sentence into it here.


Let's look specifically at the girl in the classroom desk in the news as of now: She was told numerous times to leave the classroom by the teacher, the principal and then the officer at separate occasions. She continued to refuse even after the officer ordered her to leave the classroom.

That's about 1/5th of the salient facts. A teacher engaged in an argument with a student over a student's alleged use of a cell phone, in which the student refused to leave the room for allegedly using a cell phone in class. Whether the girl actually was using her cell phone, is neither known nor relevant. What is relevant is that this incident began over something as stupid and trivial as a power play between a teacher and a student with a cell phone.

See, you only kept your attention span intact for about 8% of the entire story there. The phone has no bearing in the matter at hand here; although yes, the girl did attempt a power trip against the teacher, the vice principle and MOST importantly".A POLICE OFFICER. Open your internet and start researching the facts...followed by anger management.

At some point, the teacher ordered the student to leave the classroom. The teacher disrupted the educational process, by interrupting class, and spending time addressing a matter as stupid and trivial as a cell phone. Then, the teacher, being insulted because of the teenager's acting like a stupid teenager, overreacted and attempted to assert his/her authority over that student by calling the resource officer.

Wrong. First off, we have rules for a reason. If you can pick and choose which rules and laws you should have to follow, we would have anarchy. Second, the teacher called the office for assistance, at which time the vice principal instructed the girl to leave; she refused. The office sent the resource officer at that point. Third, how do you know what the teacher was thinking or feeling? Did you talk to him? Were you there? Are you him? No, it"s just you throwing out a narrative you want to be publicized. Truth be told, it was all because the girl didn"t think it was fair.

The police officer, upon arriving in the classroom, was not physically threatened in any way, at all, by that or any other student's actions. The student was docile, even if defiant. The student was a high school girl, who was black. The cop was a white man, fully grown, and endowed with a robust physique. This girl, sitting in her chair, was instructed a few times, to get out of her chair, and refused.

Race has nothing to do with it...but thanks for playing the race card for no reason; shows exactly who YOU are. And what does an officer have the legal right and obligation to do when interacting with a suspect who is not complying with orders? That"s right"MAKE them comply.

After the high school girl's refusal to get out of her chair, the cop picker her and the desk up, and threw her out of the desk, onto the ground, manhandled her, and placed his knee in her back before placing her under arrest, before a classroom filled with other children.

WRONG".again. 8% of the story"she what it gets you? Looking like a fool. Read the site I gave you above. The officer never touched the desk, nor did he throw it. Instead, he controlled her head and legs to lift her and remove her from the desk and stand her to her feet. She decided to start punching and kicking the officer which prompted a response of meeting force with force to diffuse the situation.

(To be continued...)
MakeSensePeopleDont
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10/30/2015 4:18:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 2:34:52 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2015 6:02:14 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:

All of this occurred because the teacher exercised spectacularly poor judgment, and caused a conflict to be escalated in three ways, which resulted in a national incident that has reinvigorated our ongoing conversation about white cops and black kids, and the extent to which black kids are unsafe because of white cops.

Again, thanks for the unnecessary addition of race as well as your opinion of what the teacher was thinking and also adding in your thoughts on what rules should and should not be enforced"which you have no place asserting.

Now, understanding that she refused authoritative requests AND commands from authoritative figures on multiple levels, and ALSO understanding that the teen was impeding on the other students' right to an education at that point; if you DISAGREE with the actions taken by the officer, please explain what actions you feel SHOULD have been taken by the officer at that point in time.

You are not only a complete moron, your values are clearly fvcked. Like, to read this I cannot help but judge you, and condemn you. Writing this means that you are a bad person, with bad values, bad priorities, and misguided beliefs. You are what is wrong with America, and there is no world in which your claims here have merit or value.

I think for myself and process the ALL of the facts logically while removing the falsities and exaggerations"that"s what"s wrong with America? You"re presenting yourself as quite the open book"and it"s not very flattering or impressive in any way.

This is not about authority. It's about kids being kids, which sometimes means that they disobey. A teenager who doesn't listen does not entitle a cop to throw her out of her desk onto the ground in the middle of a classroom, before an entire class of students.

Punching and kicking a police officer does.

To talk about the teenager's impeding on other student's right to learn is to entertain idiocy. What interrupted the class is the teacher's manifestly poor judgment, in escalating the incident from something that is completely trivial, to something that involved the police, where the police then created a national incident by a police officer's use of egregiously excessive force.

Again, you have NO idea what is and is not trivial for that particular school. There could be a VERY good reason for the strict nature of cell phone rules there. Also, do you know how long she was on her phone, what she was doing on it, the level of volume it was on, the level of disruption in the classroom to other students, etc.? No? Of course not.

What should the officer have done?

"Hey, Teach... you are seriously calling me because of a cell phone incident? Get your sh!t together and don't waste my time in the future."

Your solution is to have a law enforcement officer decline to enforce the laws of the community (school)? Good thought there buddy.

or

"Teach, assign the kid after school detention and be done with it. This matter does not concern me."

Ummm that"s what he gets paid for first off. Second, punishments are NOT his job, only control. Third, I know you like playing president of the local chapter of armchair commentators and finger wagers, but officers don"t go around telling teachers how to do their jobs or what rules should and should not be followed; they are simply given a task and they accomplish it".control.

That is what the cop SHOULD have done.

What the Teacher should NOT have done is interrupt class to address a cell phone issue. That's the kind of thing you ignore until the end of class, and then address it privately.

How disruptive was it to other students in the classroom? Oh that"s right, you have NO clue.

And you, MakeSensePeopleDont, need to think long and hard about what matters to you. If you are prepared to think that a male officer throwing a female student from her desk because of a cell phone incident, where the student presented no physical threat to the officer at any time, then you're a pretty fvcked up kind of guy.

Punching and kicking an officer IS in fact a physical threat. He did not THROW the student. Also, do you know the behavior history of the student? Maybe there is a pattern that ended up culminating in the confrontation. Next, IF A COP TELLS YOU TO DO SOMETHING"YOU DO IT.
Finally, what"s with all the insults and cussing? F-Bombs, attacking my character, calling me a moron and an f"d up kind of guy".yet you don"t even know the facts of the case? Think next time before you open your mouth and attack a person.
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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10/30/2015 4:20:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 3:05:23 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
As a teacher in a North Eastern state, this goes against every basic training we get on crisis prevention. It was handled poorly.

http://www.crisisprevention.com...

I'll look at your site when I get a few minutes but remember, that's not your school, you have not provided an alternative for the officer, and the girl was punching and kicking the officer.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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10/30/2015 4:38:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 2:34:52 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2015 6:02:14 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:

I agree with your position, but the OP doesn't deserve that. You can't just dismiss the necessity for compliance or disregard the fact that there really were few options that didn't involve the use of force. It would be more civil and productive to acknowledge the legitimacy of those concerns before introducing others that surely outweigh them.

OP is also not the worst it gets. Not even close.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
ben2974
Posts: 767
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10/30/2015 4:40:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 4:20:44 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:05:23 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
As a teacher in a North Eastern state, this goes against every basic training we get on crisis prevention. It was handled poorly.

http://www.crisisprevention.com...

I'll look at your site when I get a few minutes but remember, that's not your school, you have not provided an alternative for the officer, and the girl was punching and kicking the officer.

Why are you condoning the brutality? That's nowhere near proportional. At the end of the day, though, the teacher is going to have to make it clear what his classroom policies are. If the girl would continue to refuse to cooperate/play the rules, she is certainly due for disciplinary action.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/30/2015 5:48:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 3:09:54 PM, TN05 wrote:
Is it possible to say that the girl in the classroom was being very disruptive and deserved to be kicked out of class, and that the officer used excessive force? It's not an either/or thing.

It is possible as long as you're not trying to draw equivalence between the two as if they are both equally wrong, which is what a lot of people have been doing.

I've yet to hear anyone say that it wasn't wrong of her to disrupt the class; yet I hear tons of people trying to justify his actions.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,251
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10/30/2015 6:30:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 4:20:44 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:05:23 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
As a teacher in a North Eastern state, this goes against every basic training we get on crisis prevention. It was handled poorly.

http://www.crisisprevention.com...

I'll look at your site when I get a few minutes but remember, that's not your school, you have not provided an alternative for the officer, and the girl was punching and kicking the officer.

Excuse me? We have a policeman in our highschool. We would never use that resource for this situation. Ever. It's an extremely basic CPI issue, which every public school teacher is mandated to certify in.

http://www.crisisprevention.com...
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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10/30/2015 7:56:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 3:05:23 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
As a teacher in a North Eastern state, this goes against every basic training we get on crisis prevention. It was handled poorly.

http://www.crisisprevention.com...

This is why you're a good teacher, and the one in South Carolina was not.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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10/30/2015 7:57:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 3:09:54 PM, TN05 wrote:
Is it possible to say that the girl in the classroom was being very disruptive and deserved to be kicked out of class, and that the officer used excessive force?

Sure, but what the girl did isn't at issue. Anyone who says otherwise needs to take an inventory of their values, because any person who sides with the cop here is clearly in the wrong.

It's not an either/or thing.

True enough.
Tsar of DDO
Greyparrot
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10/30/2015 7:59:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 7:56:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:05:23 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
As a teacher in a North Eastern state, this goes against every basic training we get on crisis prevention. It was handled poorly.

http://www.crisisprevention.com...

This is why you're a good teacher, and the one in South Carolina was not.

It's not even a matter of my opinion or personal competency, this is sooo way off the mark for accepted standards for teachers (at least in the area where I work)
Greyparrot
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10/30/2015 8:02:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 7:57:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:09:54 PM, TN05 wrote:
Is it possible to say that the girl in the classroom was being very disruptive and deserved to be kicked out of class, and that the officer used excessive force?

Sure, but what the girl did isn't at issue. Anyone who says otherwise needs to take an inventory of their values, because any person who sides with the cop here is clearly in the wrong.

The real issue is this, a cop is a hammer.

A hammer is not the tool you want to use in this situation.

It's like sending the army out to a foreign country to achieve humanitarian goals....umm hello... the army's job is to break stuff....
YYW
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10/30/2015 8:18:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 4:14:14 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:

First, your overuse of the bold feature, despite your explanation, is stupid, pretentious and annoying. It's aesthetically offensive, and unpleasant to look at. So, you're already off to a bad start.

Thank you for your useless and childish opening; roid rage much? Breathe; it"s called an opinion for a reason. Here in America, opinions are perfectly acceptable, even applauded.

That is utterly meaningless sh!t. What you said is outrageous, and the things that your OP says about you as a person are deeply troubling. Or, perhaps they're not troubling to you, but they would be troubling to any reasonable member of society other than you.

Now I"m sorry for this, but you WILL have to read the site and watch not one, but TWO whole videos"stay calm...don"t break your computer a half sentence into it here.

I've seen the videos. I've seen all of them, and there is no world in which the cop was justified in what he did. Your pathetically condescending tone, so that you are aware, does not lend credibility to what you're saying. It amplifies the extent to which you come off as a troglodyte.

See, you only kept your attention span intact for about 8% of the entire story there. The phone has no bearing in the matter at hand here; although yes, the girl did attempt a power trip against the teacher, the vice principle and MOST importantly".A POLICE OFFICER. Open your internet and start researching the facts...followed by anger management.

I'm glad we both acknowledge that you're saying that it was acceptable for a fully grown white male police officer to throw from her desk, manhandle, and pin to the ground a high school girl over a cell phone incident in a classroom.

You, and the people like you, are what is wrong with this country.

Wrong. First off, we have rules for a reason. If you can pick and choose which rules and laws you should have to follow, we would have anarchy. Second, the teacher called the office for assistance, at which time the vice principal instructed the girl to leave; she refused. The office sent the resource officer at that point. Third, how do you know what the teacher was thinking or feeling? Did you talk to him? Were you there? Are you him? No, it"s just you throwing out a narrative you want to be publicized. Truth be told, it was all because the girl didn"t think it was fair.

The extent of your hypocrisy is breathtaking. How stupid are you that you think there were not *rules* that the teacher had to follow? How stupid are you that you think that there were not rules that the teacher had to follow? Beyond that, how stupid are you that you think that either of those adults followed the rules of conflict resolution in a public school?

I don't give a sh!t what the teacher was feeling, or what the cop was feeling. The reason I don't give a sh!t what the teacher was feeling, is because what the teacher, or the cop were "feeling" is utterly irrelevant, and to the extent that you attempt to justify what either did because of what either were "feeling" you reveal the extent to which you're not fit to be in the company of children and teenagers. I hope, truly, that you never have kids... although in reality, I virtually guarantee you that if the kid was not black, you'd have a different view of all of this. But I digress.

What matters is (1) what the girl did, and (2) what a reasonable teacher in that situation would have done. The teacher's subjective feelings, and the cop's subjective overreaction are not evaluated against the standard of what they "felt." They're evaluated against what any reasonable adult would have done in that situation. No reasonable adult would have responded to a teenager's insubordination in that way. And again, if you think otherwise, you are not only wrong, but you're a morally debase person.

Race has nothing to do with it...but thanks for playing the race card for no reason; shows exactly who YOU are. And what does an officer have the legal right and obligation to do when interacting with a suspect who is not complying with orders? That"s right"MAKE them comply.

If this were a white kid, I am virtually certain your response would be different. This is me, saying that based on your taking the white cop's side, and based on your justifying his behavior, saying that you are a racist. And not the benign kind of racist. The insidious, malevolent kind of racist that masks their racism by falling back on the "law and order" tag line.

And beyond being a racist, you're utterly incompetent with regard to any legal conclusion you have expressed or implied in this thread. Said in words that are more within your ballpark, you have no idea what you're talking about.

The girl was not a "suspect" and you're an idiot for attempting to use legally operative language in that way. She was a teenager who may have broken a rule, not a lawbreaker. But, want to know the reason why you're calling a black girl who may have used her cell phone in class a "suspect"? Because you're a racist.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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10/30/2015 8:18:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 7:59:53 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 10/30/2015 7:56:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:05:23 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
As a teacher in a North Eastern state, this goes against every basic training we get on crisis prevention. It was handled poorly.

http://www.crisisprevention.com...

This is why you're a good teacher, and the one in South Carolina was not.

It's not even a matter of my opinion or personal competency, this is sooo way off the mark for accepted standards for teachers (at least in the area where I work)

You're exactly right.
Tsar of DDO
MakeSensePeopleDont
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10/30/2015 9:29:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 4:40:30 PM, ben2974 wrote:

Why are you condoning the brutality? That's nowhere near proportional. At the end of the day, though, the teacher is going to have to make it clear what his classroom policies are. If the girl would continue to refuse to cooperate/play the rules, she is certainly due for disciplinary action.

Because there was no brutality. Brutality defines as "cruel, harsh, and usually violent treatment of another person".

After numerous failed attempts at verbal resolution by the teacher, vice principal and a police officer; the officer had no choice but to physically encourage the student to comply. This was attempted by the officer grabbing the student's leg and cradling her head in an attempt to physically stand her to her feet. When this attempt was made, the girl began punching and kicking the officer, at which time the officer was well within his rights as a person, to physically defend himself from harm; and as an officer, to physically resolve the issue through deescalation, which the officer did.

Let's trace back to the root of the escalation of events:

1) Where did the initial escalation occur? When the girl violated school policy.

2) Was the teacher correct to apply recourse to the student and was this a further escalation? Yes, he was correct to do so. No, this was not an escalation as it is his duty to respond to the violation accordingly.

3) Did the student escalate or deescalate the situation by refusing to follow the teacher's instructions? Escalate.

Continue on in this manner and you will find that the escalation of events falls on the student for the continual disregard for authority and authoritative commands, as well as well as the strikes she threw against the officer. There wasn't much else that could have realistically been done in that situation.
Raisor
Posts: 4,459
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10/30/2015 9:30:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Honestly this isn't a criminal encounter. It's a teenager refusing to giver up her cellphone.

If this happened in my highschool, the teacher would have said "we're talking after class" and ignored the person dicking around on their cell phone. Way more egregious forms of disrespect happened in my predominantly white private school, none of them resulted in physical violence (though there was some pretty hilarious verbal violence).

What people are upset about is that a teenager being an a**hole is considered in many schools to be tantamount to a violent criminal.

What action should have been taken is pretty much anything that didn't result in a police officer using violence. Some options that immediately come to mind:

a) Don't call a cop in the first place, its a kid misbehaving in class not a kid waving a knife around
b) Wait until after class to sort out the issue calmly and privately
c) Call the students parents if the student refuses to cooperate after class
d) If the student is truly stubborn and is refusing to move or leave her desk, after hours of calm intervention, formally arrest the student on charges of trespassing.

This is why people say F*ck the police... disrespecting the police isn't a crime, it doesn't legitimize violence. I really appreciate the police who work hard to investigate violent crime and act as peacekeepers during domestic disturbances. But a police officer who attacks a citizen for being "disrespectful"....f*ck that guy...f*ck anyone who thinks being "disrespected" gives him the right to attack another person, whether they work for the state or not.
MakeSensePeopleDont
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10/30/2015 9:34:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 8:18:52 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/30/2015 7:59:53 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 10/30/2015 7:56:25 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:05:23 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
As a teacher in a North Eastern state, this goes against every basic training we get on crisis prevention. It was handled poorly.

http://www.crisisprevention.com...

This is why you're a good teacher, and the one in South Carolina was not.

It's not even a matter of my opinion or personal competency, this is sooo way off the mark for accepted standards for teachers (at least in the area where I work)

You're exactly right.

No, the poster is NOT right. The teacher in this situation passed responsibility as they were supposed to; after verbal requests with no compliance, they had nothing to do with the situation.

Furthermore, Police Officers are not governed by educator's crisis management policy or steps...they are police...not teachers. Do not confuse yourself simply because the officer is stationed on school property.

Ask yourself this question: Why did the school feel the need to station an officer on school grounds and designate him as a response to students not cooperating? It isn't because the students of that school are just the nicest and most courteous people on the planet now is it?
Raisor
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10/30/2015 9:35:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 8:02:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 10/30/2015 7:57:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/30/2015 3:09:54 PM, TN05 wrote:
Is it possible to say that the girl in the classroom was being very disruptive and deserved to be kicked out of class, and that the officer used excessive force?

Sure, but what the girl did isn't at issue. Anyone who says otherwise needs to take an inventory of their values, because any person who sides with the cop here is clearly in the wrong.

The real issue is this, a cop is a hammer.

A hammer is not the tool you want to use in this situation.

It's like sending the army out to a foreign country to achieve humanitarian goals....umm hello... the army's job is to break stuff....

That's what i can't understand...the issue was apparently that the student refused to turn over her cellphone. I what world is it a good idea to escalate that situation to violence.

I once sat in a theology class where a kid sat in the front row tearing out pages of his Bible to make origami penguins. The priest teaching the class asked him what he was doing, the kid said "making penguins," and the priest said "We're going to talk after class." Such a better way to handle obvious disrespect than calling the cops and assaulting the student.
MakeSensePeopleDont
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10/30/2015 9:51:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 9:30:41 PM, Raisor wrote:
Honestly this isn't a criminal encounter. It's a teenager refusing to giver up her cellphone.

If this happened in my highschool, the teacher would have said "we're talking after class" and ignored the person dicking around on their cell phone. Way more egregious forms of disrespect happened in my predominantly white private school, none of them resulted in physical violence (though there was some pretty hilarious verbal violence).

Do you know the behavioral demographics of the school in question or the student in question? You are making a comparison of this particular school, this particular student and this particular incident to your experiences in private school. Without knowledge or experience in this particular environment, it is unfair, wrong and misleading for you to make this sort of comparison

What people are upset about is that a teenager being an a**hole is considered in many schools to be tantamount to a violent criminal.

No, the student punching and kicking the officer is a violent crime.

What action should have been taken is pretty much anything that didn't result in a police officer using violence. Some options that immediately come to mind:

a) Don't call a cop in the first place, its a kid misbehaving in class not a kid waving a knife around

That is the officer's duty. He is assigned that post at the school to respond to students like this. Do you think they assigned an officer this duty at this school because the students are so nice and obedient?

b) Wait until after class to sort out the issue calmly and privately

So allow the student to continue violating policy in front of the rest of the class? What happens when a 2nd student follows suit as you are not responding? A 3rd? A 4th? Half the class? At what point do you address it? When it gets out of control and unmanageable? When you allow the situation to spiral out of control so bad there is no longer a reasonable fashion to resolve the issue? What other rules should the students be able to openly violate without punishment?

See how quickly it spirals?


c) Call the students parents if the student refuses to cooperate after class

The parent in this case had no harsh words for their daughter for not follow instructions from the teacher, the vice principal or the officer; the only thing to come from their mouths is "I'm suing you, give me money." So in the case of a parent who just doesn't care at all...what then? Let the student run wild?

d) If the student is truly stubborn and is refusing to move or leave her desk, after hours of calm intervention, formally arrest the student on charges of trespassing.

HOURS? REALLY? You want an officer, a teacher, a vice principal, etc. to stand there verbally giving instructions for HOURS before the officer is allowed to perform his duties?

This is why people say F*ck the police... disrespecting the police isn't a crime, it doesn't legitimize violence. I really appreciate the police who work hard to investigate violent crime and act as peacekeepers during domestic disturbances. But a police officer who attacks a citizen for being "disrespectful"....f*ck that guy...f*ck anyone who thinks being "disrespected" gives him the right to attack another person, whether they work for the state or not.

Disrespecting the police is not a crime...you are correct. However, disobeying a law command and assaulting an officer are both crimes.
Mirza
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10/30/2015 9:52:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 6:02:14 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
There's been a ton of aggression toward officers for "using excessive force" against minors; most recently the girl in the classroom sitting in the desk.

Now I do see police "brutality" and excessive force used from time to time, for example the 8 year old boy who had handcuffs placed on his biceps behind his back so his elbows were touching. However, these teenagers as of late that have been tossed to the ground, handcuffed, etc.; was it REALLY police brutality?

Let's look specifically at the girl in the classroom desk in the news as of now: She was told numerous times to leave the classroom by the teacher, the principal and then the officer at separate occasions. She continued to refuse even after the officer ordered her to leave the classroom.

Now, understanding that she refused authoritative requests AND commands from authoritative figures on multiple levels, and ALSO understanding that the teen was impeding on the other students' right to an education at that point; if you DISAGREE with the actions taken by the officer, please explain what actions you feel SHOULD have been taken by the officer at that point in time.
Are you interested in hearing my take on this?
MakeSensePeopleDont
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10/30/2015 9:58:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 8:18:10 PM, YYW wrote:

I'm not going to get anywhere with you. Tell you what, go do something illegal, when the cops get there disobey them. When they attempt to go hands on to diffuse the situation, start punching and kicking them.

Come back in oh say 6-12 months when you're released from prison (assuming it's your first violent offense) and let us all know how it went.
BlackFlags
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10/30/2015 10:15:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I had a discussion about this. There are a million things people can universally agree on that the cop should of done better.

Also there is consensus that the cop should not have laid his hands on the girl at all.
The girl didn't want to leave class. That is a pretty normal encounter that gets dealt with in every high school across the developed world. What in the hell was the cop thinking when he decided to grab the girl?

It goes without saying that he used excessive force too, even if you do disagree that he handled the situation wrong. The smart thing to do would of been to get the kids away and to have a sit down with the girl and make an attempt to level with her. That is probably what most cops would do anyways in this situation.
popculturepooka
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10/30/2015 10:17:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 9:51:21 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 10/30/2015 9:30:41 PM, Raisor wrote:
Honestly this isn't a criminal encounter. It's a teenager refusing to giver up her cellphone.

If this happened in my highschool, the teacher would have said "we're talking after class" and ignored the person dicking around on their cell phone. Way more egregious forms of disrespect happened in my predominantly white private school, none of them resulted in physical violence (though there was some pretty hilarious verbal violence).

Do you know the behavioral demographics of the school in question or the student in question? You are making a comparison of this particular school, this particular student and this particular incident to your experiences in private school. Without knowledge or experience in this particular environment, it is unfair, wrong and misleading for you to make this sort of comparison


It amazes me how you have brought up her potential behavorial history when it's already BEEN SHOWN (in the other thread) that officer has a history of doing stuff like this. Why aren't you bringing up HIS history?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
BlackFlags
Posts: 904
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10/30/2015 10:21:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
But really, the cop had no authority over her to begin with, and the personal take on that is she wanted to be defiant about not giving her cellphone up, and that is goddamn good for her too. I wish I could of told her to pick battles she could win, but in that situation, she couldn't back down without losing her dignity, which is why ALL that the cop or teachers needed to do was offer a way out that did not compromise her pride.

The fact that so many American's are sympathetic towards cases of police brutality, just furthers the evidence that the United States is becoming a regulatory authoritarian police states.

There are already a ton of eerie allusions between America and the oppressive society illustrated in George Orwell's 1984. It happened like he hinted it would too. We would slowly give up liberties overtime, starting in the name of liberalism and unity, but ending in the shoes of authoritarianism and nationalism.
Raisor
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10/30/2015 11:07:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 10:17:47 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/30/2015 9:51:21 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 10/30/2015 9:30:41 PM, Raisor wrote:
Honestly this isn't a criminal encounter. It's a teenager refusing to giver up her cellphone.

If this happened in my highschool, the teacher would have said "we're talking after class" and ignored the person dicking around on their cell phone. Way more egregious forms of disrespect happened in my predominantly white private school, none of them resulted in physical violence (though there was some pretty hilarious verbal violence).

Do you know the behavioral demographics of the school in question or the student in question? You are making a comparison of this particular school, this particular student and this particular incident to your experiences in private school. Without knowledge or experience in this particular environment, it is unfair, wrong and misleading for you to make this sort of comparison



It amazes me how you have brought up her potential behavorial history when it's already BEEN SHOWN (in the other thread) that officer has a history of doing stuff like this. Why aren't you bringing up HIS history?

I included this bit as an implicit lead to the argument that the "demographics" of the situation played a major role in how the situation was handled. Interesting that the response was basically that the different "demographics" justify a violent response.

For the record, the kid making origami penguins in my theology class also did things like stick pins in the toe of his shoe and kick other students, told other kids he would rape them, etc. So I have a hard time believing individual behavior was really the make or break. Face is if you go to a poor ethnic school you get to walk through metal detectors and are funneled into the justice system over minor infractions. If you go to middle class+ white schools you get slaps on the wrist and generally grow up to be responsible members of society. Go figure that teenagers act agressively and do stupid stuff, maybe we should stop acting like this warrants violence and jail time.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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10/30/2015 11:12:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/30/2015 9:30:41 PM, Raisor wrote:
Honestly this isn't a criminal encounter. It's a teenager refusing to giver up her cellphone.

If this happened in my highschool, the teacher would have said "we're talking after class" and ignored the person dicking around on their cell phone. Way more egregious forms of disrespect happened in my predominantly white private school, none of them resulted in physical violence (though there was some pretty hilarious verbal violence).

What people are upset about is that a teenager being an a**hole is considered in many schools to be tantamount to a violent criminal.

What action should have been taken is pretty much anything that didn't result in a police officer using violence. Some options that immediately come to mind:

a) Don't call a cop in the first place, its a kid misbehaving in class not a kid waving a knife around
b) Wait until after class to sort out the issue calmly and privately
c) Call the students parents if the student refuses to cooperate after class
d) If the student is truly stubborn and is refusing to move or leave her desk, after hours of calm intervention, formally arrest the student on charges of trespassing.

This is why people say F*ck the police... disrespecting the police isn't a crime, it doesn't legitimize violence. I really appreciate the police who work hard to investigate violent crime and act as peacekeepers during domestic disturbances. But a police officer who attacks a citizen for being "disrespectful"....f*ck that guy...f*ck anyone who thinks being "disrespected" gives him the right to attack another person, whether they work for the state or not.

This is very well stated, and it is all correct.
Tsar of DDO