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Uneducated Police

Korashk
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9/23/2010 5:11:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
...is the name of this forum topic here: http://forum.nationstates.net...

The ignorant, uneducated mouth-spew coming out of the OP is probably the most lulzworthy thing currently on the internet. He's basically complaining about how he doesn't like cops under the guise that there are no cops that consider the ethical and moral implications of their jobs.

He then goes on to use literally every logical fallacy (barely an exaggeration) to affirm this. For instance, according to him every cop is a murderous psychopath.

If you want more than a few laughs then this topic is a must-read.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Reasoning
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9/23/2010 6:08:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The OP is a hero.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Korashk
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9/23/2010 6:13:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 5:55:54 PM, Puck wrote:
Why would I want a wider net cast to read idiocy? :P

For the lulz.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
GeoLaureate8
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9/23/2010 6:20:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 5:11:30 PM, Korashk wrote:
...is the name of this forum topic here: http://forum.nationstates.net...

The ignorant, uneducated mouth-spew coming out of the OP is probably the most lulzworthy thing currently on the internet.

Actually, it's you who fails. His points were perfectly valid and made important points.

He's basically complaining about how he doesn't like cops under the guise that there are no cops that consider the ethical and moral implications of their jobs.

And what's wrong with that? That's a valid criticism. Maybe if Hitler considered the ethical and moral implications of his job, maybe there wouldn't be a holocaust.

He then goes on to use literally every logical fallacy (barely an exaggeration) to affirm this.

Such as?

For instance, according to him every cop is a murderous psychopath.

That's not a logical fallacy, just an unsupported assertion, though as it looks from here, it's a strawman on your behalf.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Reasoning
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9/23/2010 6:21:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Volkov
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9/23/2010 6:22:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hm, I guessed right. The two people who are essentially utopian anarchists support what the dude says. No more surprises here on DDO.
Korashk
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9/23/2010 6:25:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 6:20:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/23/2010 5:11:30 PM, Korashk wrote:
...is the name of this forum topic here: http://forum.nationstates.net...

The ignorant, uneducated mouth-spew coming out of the OP is probably the most lulzworthy thing currently on the internet.

Actually, it's you who fails. His points were perfectly valid and made important points.

His OP wasn't all that bad, even if I don't agree with it. But there are 1000 other posts in the topic. Read those.

He then goes on to use literally every logical fallacy (barely an exaggeration) to affirm this.

Such as?

Read the thread.

For instance, according to him every cop is a murderous psychopath.

That's not a logical fallacy, just an unsupported assertion, though as it looks from here, it's a strawman on your behalf.

It's actually a paraphrased quote.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
20000miles
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9/23/2010 6:26:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I fail to see anything lulzworthy in the OP.

I presume that all police officers (and come to think of it, soldiers) are moral agents of some sort, presumably bound by the same morals as the rest of us.

Merely wearing a blue uniform doesn't place one in a different moral category to anyone else, although many people here (called "statists") seem to think so. Therefore it's difficult for me to feel sympathy for a police officer who was recently killed during a "police operation" that involved breaking into the property of another human being. (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au...)

Similarly, if a police officer is policing an unjust law (presumably you believe that there can be such a thing as an unjust law) then she surely must be in the wrong as well.

We should rightly oppose such actions.
GeoLaureate8
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9/23/2010 6:27:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What was actually absurd, was the responses to the OP of that thread.

For example:

OP: "Why would you sign up for a job where you have the power to imprison people or shoot them, and not have any justification for it whatsoever?"

Idiot: "The law is justification enough."

OP: "So slavery was cool right?"

Idiot: "Is slavery the law, anymore? Btw, nice strawman there."

^^^
No you f*ckin retard! You just said that the law is justification in and of itself, so why do you condemn slave laws? And no, it wasn't a strawman, you obviously have no clue what a strawman is!
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Reasoning
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9/23/2010 6:30:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
annhasle
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9/23/2010 6:39:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The OP wasn't that bad at first even though it would be very easy to refute. But WOW, his next posts? Is he stuck in in the 1960's? His arguments were.... Ugh, STRAWMAN.

"A difference in what? If you have no idea about the theory behind where your authority derives, and have never considered the morality of the job, what difference are you making? The police are the opposite of making a difference, in fact they prevent people from making a difference by spraying them with water cannons and arresting them for civil disobedience."

^ Still laughing at this one...
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
annhasle
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9/23/2010 6:43:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 6:39:28 PM, annhasle wrote:
The OP wasn't that bad at first even though it would be very easy to refute. But WOW, his next posts? Is he stuck in in the 1960's? But almost all arguments (even the others) were STRAWMAN.

"A difference in what? If you have no idea about the theory behind where your authority derives, and have never considered the morality of the job, what difference are you making? The police are the opposite of making a difference, in fact they prevent people from making a difference by spraying them with water cannons and arresting them for civil disobedience."

^ Still laughing at this one...

Fix'd -__-'
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/23/2010 6:46:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 6:39:28 PM, annhasle wrote:
The OP wasn't that bad at first even though it would be very easy to refute. But WOW, his next posts? Is he stuck in in the 1960's? His arguments were.... Ugh, STRAWMAN.

"A difference in what? If you have no idea about the theory behind where your authority derives, and have never considered the morality of the job, what difference are you making? The police are the opposite of making a difference, in fact they prevent people from making a difference by spraying them with water cannons and arresting them for civil disobedience."

^ Still laughing at this one...

Video Desc.: "Police used teargas pepper spray and rubber bullets against University of Pittsburgh students during the Pittsburgh G20 Summit. Many of the students were not part of any demonstration but bystanders, curious to find a mass of armed riot police on their campus. "
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
annhasle
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9/23/2010 6:52:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 6:46:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/23/2010 6:39:28 PM, annhasle wrote:
The OP wasn't that bad at first even though it would be very easy to refute. But WOW, his next posts? Is he stuck in in the 1960's? His arguments were.... Ugh, STRAWMAN.

"A difference in what? If you have no idea about the theory behind where your authority derives, and have never considered the morality of the job, what difference are you making? The police are the opposite of making a difference, in fact they prevent people from making a difference by spraying them with water cannons and arresting them for civil disobedience."

^ Still laughing at this one...

Video Desc.: "Police used teargas pepper spray and rubber bullets against University of Pittsburgh students during the Pittsburgh G20 Summit. Many of the students were not part of any demonstration but bystanders, curious to find a mass of armed riot police on their campus. "



And somehow this proves that Police are against people making a difference? That they intend to prevent all of them? And when someone tries, they shoot water cannons and arrest them? Uhh.... No. Will there be cases where this happens? Yes. Is it rare? Yes. The OP seems to have set out that all police are against difference, power hungry and unethical human beings that are there for the pay. That's not a fair representation for all police.

I don't even like the police and I realize that...
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Sam_Lowry
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9/23/2010 7:01:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 6:52:25 PM, annhasle wrote:
And somehow this proves that Police are against people making a difference?

The implication is that if you are an officer, you implicitly agree to uphold all laws regardless of how unjust. I think most people would agree that an officer who refuses to uphold an immoral law or would rather quit than enforce an immoral law is perfectly moral.
GeoLaureate8
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9/23/2010 7:02:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 6:52:25 PM, annhasle wrote:
And somehow this proves that Police are against people making a difference?

That's not what my post was addressing, but yes, that too. I'm pretty sure all the police were against MLK and today's police are against anything that goes

That they intend to prevent all of them? And when someone tries, they shoot water cannons and arrest them? Uhh.... No. Will there be cases where this happens? Yes. Is it rare? Yes. The OP seems to have set out that all police are against difference, power hungry and unethical human beings that are there for the pay. That's not a fair representation for all police.

That's a strawman on your behalf. Criticisms such as yours always turn the anti-police arguments into arguments against people. For example, see TheAmazingAtheist video on cops that I posted where he explains that he's not against cops as people because he conceded that many are nice and caring people, it's the nature of the job that is the issue.

I don't even like the police and I realize that...

Again, no one is generalizing all cops merely because of a few bad ones. We're attacking ALL cops whether they're nice people or not.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
annhasle
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9/23/2010 7:07:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 7:01:19 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
At 9/23/2010 6:52:25 PM, annhasle wrote:
And somehow this proves that Police are against people making a difference?

The implication is that if you are an officer, you implicitly agree to uphold all laws regardless of how unjust. I think most people would agree that an officer who refuses to uphold an immoral law or would rather quit than enforce an immoral law is perfectly moral.

Would I want a police officer to quit instead of enforcing an immoral law? Of course. But that's not what this is about. The OP said that the police are opposed to people making a difference. That's BS. I hate the police, but I wouldn't make a generalization like that which trashes every police officer's character.

Now, if the OP has said, "These police officers are unethical/unmoral because they did ____" and posted a link to the specific incidence, I'd totally agree. Then there would be proof and a valid claim.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Korashk
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9/23/2010 7:19:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Quotes from the OP; I found all the best ones.:

"[Prison.] Its a room with bars where you are raped and beaten by other inmates."
~
On drug cartel murders:
"Cartels use military equiptment to resolve disputes, because courts won't resolve drug disputes for them. If you make the sale and use of drugs legal, they wont have to resort to violence to settle disputes."

In response to : http://www.google.com...=

"Thats not an argument. Thats a bunch of pictures of people maintaining our freedom to injest whatever foriegn substances we want in our bodies. They actually are the hero's of the free market. Now can you tell me why if the courts handled drug disputes, drug cartels would need to resort to violence?"

"Why do cartels kill people? Because the government won't settle their disputes in court."

"But that dosn't take away from the fact that these cartels provide a good that is in high demand, which is a positive service to the people. Where as the government attempts to ban it, resulting in the deaths of innocent Mexican civilians."
~
"The mission of police is to uphold the law by ANY means necessary. Even if that means ending the lives of infinite numbers of people."
~
In response to : 'Lasers can damage human eyes. The unbiased evidence: People have had their eyes damaged by lasers.'

"Thats ad-hominem."
~
"The police often don't follow the constitution though. Many local laws are unconstitutional and yet police blindly enforce them."
~
"Yes, all police do is break into peoples homes, shoot them and imprison them. Thats their job. What the hell else do they do?"
~
"What makes a police officer different than a murderer or a kidnapper?"
~
"Care to provide evidence to support your claim that police's job isn't to kill people and imprison them?"
~
"If I write down a list of "laws" I wan't enforced, and then hire my own private security team to enforce them, thats just as morally justifiable as a police officers job right?"
~
"Im in my house, and I wasnt to smoke marijuana on my own property. Suddenly, the SWAT team enters, shoots my dog and beats me. Then they take me to a prison, where I am beaten and raped by inmates, until I join a hardened prison gang."
~
"I mis-spoke then. The "Yes" at the beggining was not answering the beggining of your sentence, it was meant to answer whether I would call it a strawman argument or not." [Before any arguments were presented.]
~
"Me and my friends get together in a warehouse in the center of town. We put an ad out in the paper letting people know they should come vote for local police chief. Only 20 people show up to vote. They vote me in as police chief. All 20 of us write down one very simple rule "No Breatheing Allowed unless you are a public official or civil servant". We all vote on the law. We now declare juristiction over the entire city. We drive around town, shooting people we suspect of breathing, and kidnapping them and bringing them back to our warehouse.

How is that different than police?"
~
"Because you don't protect me and you don't serve me, and you don't represent me. I am against marijuana laws, and when you come into my house and shoot my child or shoot my dogs or destroy my property or beat me for my "own good", your not protecting me, nor are you serving me." [Because that's what cops do when they catch you smoking a bit of the reefer.]
~
"I start a hotdog stand to compete with the gross monopoly price the college cafeteria charges. I do not have permission to set up this hotdog stand. After many futile attempts by campus security and staff to instruct me to leave, the police arrive. They ask me to leave, and I refuse. They then approach me to put me under arrest. I obviously do not want to be kidnapped, so I resist arrest. They begin beating me and attempting to handcuff me. They fail to subdue me, and I escape. They draw their guns on me. In self defense, I pull my own gun. They shoot me dead.

If you follow any chain of "non-compliance" with police, you will end up dead. Therefor, police's jobs are to kill and imprison. Obviously most people just choose the imprison option."
~
"You can't choose not to be black, but you can choose not to be an extortionist for the government. Therefor, they actually have proven themselves to be thieves by being a cop, wheras being black has not proven you to be a thief."
~
"Not all cops have killed people, but all cops have threatened to kill people."
~
"Police's job is threatening to kill people."
~

This is the most hilarious thing I've read in a while.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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9/23/2010 7:22:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 7:02:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/23/2010 6:52:25 PM, annhasle wrote:
That's a strawman on your behalf. Criticisms such as yours always turn the anti-police arguments into arguments against people. For example, see TheAmazingAtheist video on cops that I posted where he explains that he's not against cops as people because he conceded that many are nice and caring people, it's the nature of the job that is the issue.

In the OP, he/she was making a claim against all police officer's character. Not against their jobs only. He/she made claims about their intentions, morality and knowledge with no proof and only opinions. That's what I am arguing against.

Now, you are the one who is arguing that police could be nice and caring, while attacking the nature of their jobs. I support that 100%. But that's different than the OP....
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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9/23/2010 7:26:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 7:19:26 PM, Korashk wrote:
Quotes from the OP; I found all the best ones.:

"[Prison.] Its a room with bars where you are raped and beaten by other inmates."
~
On drug cartel murders:
"Cartels use military equiptment to resolve disputes, because courts won't resolve drug disputes for them. If you make the sale and use of drugs legal, they wont have to resort to violence to settle disputes."

In response to : http://www.google.com...=

"Thats not an argument. Thats a bunch of pictures of people maintaining our freedom to injest whatever foriegn substances we want in our bodies. They actually are the hero's of the free market. Now can you tell me why if the courts handled drug disputes, drug cartels would need to resort to violence?"

"Why do cartels kill people? Because the government won't settle their disputes in court."

"But that dosn't take away from the fact that these cartels provide a good that is in high demand, which is a positive service to the people. Where as the government attempts to ban it, resulting in the deaths of innocent Mexican civilians."

~
"The mission of police is to uphold the law by ANY means necessary. Even if that means ending the lives of infinite numbers of people."
~
: In response to : 'Lasers can damage human eyes. The unbiased evidence: People have had their eyes damaged by lasers.':
"Thats ad-hominem."
~
: "The police often don't follow the constitution though. Many local laws are unconstitutional and yet police blindly enforce them.": ~
"Yes, all police do is break into peoples homes, shoot them and imprison them. Thats their job. What the hell else do they do?"
~
: "What makes a police officer different than a murderer or a kidnapper?": ~
"Care to provide evidence to support your claim that police's job isn't to kill people and imprison them?"
~
: "If I write down a list of "laws" I wan't enforced, and then hire my own private security team to enforce them, thats just as morally justifiable as a police officers job right?"
~
: "Im in my house, and I wasnt to smoke marijuana on my own property. Suddenly, the SWAT team enters, shoots my dog and beats me. Then they take me to a prison, where I am beaten and raped by inmates, until I join a hardened prison gang."
~
"I mis-spoke then. The "Yes" at the beggining was not answering the beggining of your sentence, it was meant to answer whether I would call it a strawman argument or not." [Before any arguments were presented.]
~
: "Me and my friends get together in a warehouse in the center of town. We put an ad out in the paper letting people know they should come vote for local police chief. Only 20 people show up to vote. They vote me in as police chief. All 20 of us write down one very simple rule "No Breatheing Allowed unless you are a public official or civil servant". We all vote on the law. We now declare juristiction over the entire city. We drive around town, shooting people we suspect of breathing, and kidnapping them and bringing them back to our warehouse. :
How is that different than police?"
~
: "Because you don't protect me and you don't serve me, and you don't represent me. I am against marijuana laws, and when you come into my house and shoot my child or shoot my dogs or destroy my property or beat me for my "own good", your not protecting me, nor are you serving me." [Because that's what cops do when they catch you smoking a bit of the reefer.]: ~
"I start a hotdog stand to compete with the gross monopoly price the college cafeteria charges. I do not have permission to set up this hotdog stand. After many futile attempts by campus security and staff to instruct me to leave, the police arrive. They ask me to leave, and I refuse. They then approach me to put me under arrest. I obviously do not want to be kidnapped, so I resist arrest. They begin beating me and attempting to handcuff me. They fail to subdue me, and I escape. They draw their guns on me. In self defense, I pull my own gun. They shoot me dead.:
If you follow any chain of "non-compliance" with police, you will end up dead. Therefor, police's jobs are to kill and imprison. Obviously most people just choose the imprison option."
~
: "You can't choose not to be black, but you can choose not to be an extortionist for the government. Therefor, they actually have proven themselves to be thieves by being a cop, wheras being black has not proven you to be a thief."
~
"Not all cops have killed people, but all cops have threatened to kill people."
~
"Police's job is threatening to kill people."
~

This is the most hilarious thing I've read in a while.

While I don't agree with all of the bolded, they are actually reasonable questions/arguments.
Sam_Lowry
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9/23/2010 7:28:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 7:22:19 PM, annhasle wrote:
In the OP, he/she was making a claim against all police officer's character. Not against their jobs only. He/she made claims about their intentions, morality and knowledge with no proof and only opinions. That's what I am arguing against.

You're completely missing the argument. By agreeing to a job that is inherently immoral, you are agreeing to act immorally.
annhasle
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9/23/2010 7:32:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 7:28:04 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
At 9/23/2010 7:22:19 PM, annhasle wrote:
In the OP, he/she was making a claim against all police officer's character. Not against their jobs only. He/she made claims about their intentions, morality and knowledge with no proof and only opinions. That's what I am arguing against.

You're completely missing the argument. By agreeing to a job that is inherently immoral, you are agreeing to act immorally.

Yes, that's the nature of the job I hate. They act immorally and are protected by the laws from being punished. Does that make all police officers horrible people though? No. Does that mean that all police are there for the money? No. Does that mean that all police will shoot you for smoking pot? No. There's just WAY too many over-generalizations about the police that I cannot agree with.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Korashk
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9/23/2010 7:40:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/23/2010 7:26:00 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
At 9/23/2010 7:19:26 PM, Korashk wrote:
"Thats not an argument. Thats a bunch of pictures of people maintaining our freedom to injest whatever foriegn substances we want in our bodies. They actually are the hero's of the free market. Now can you tell me why if the courts handled drug disputes, drug cartels would need to resort to violence?"

Drugs not being legal does not justify the murder of Mexican villagers.

"Why do cartels kill people? Because the government won't settle their disputes in court."

Non-sequitur.

"But that dosn't take away from the fact that these cartels provide a good that is in high demand, which is a positive service to the people. Where as the government attempts to ban it, resulting in the deaths of innocent Mexican civilians."

Also non-sequitur.

: In response to : 'Lasers can damage human eyes. The unbiased evidence: People have had their eyes damaged by lasers.':
"Thats ad-hominem."

Someone else said the bolded part. His response to it was that the statement was ad-hominem directed at himself.

: "The police often don't follow the constitution though. Many local laws are unconstitutional and yet police blindly enforce them.":

This is an unsupported assertion.

: "What makes a police officer different than a murderer or a kidnapper?": ~

Really?

: "If I write down a list of "laws" I wan't enforced, and then hire my own private security team to enforce them, thats just as morally justifiable as a police officers job right?"

Strawman.

: "Im in my house, and I wasnt to smoke marijuana on my own property. Suddenly, the SWAT team enters, shoots my dog and beats me. Then they take me to a prison, where I am beaten and raped by inmates, until I join a hardened prison gang."

This is not typical cop behavior.

: "Me and my friends get together in a warehouse in the center of town. We put an ad out in the paper letting people know they should come vote for local police chief. Only 20 people show up to vote. They vote me in as police chief. All 20 of us write down one very simple rule "No Breatheing Allowed unless you are a public official or civil servant". We all vote on the law. We now declare juristiction over the entire city. We drive around town, shooting people we suspect of breathing, and kidnapping them and bringing them back to our warehouse. :

Another Strawman.

: "Because you don't protect me and you don't serve me, and you don't represent me. I am against marijuana laws, and when you come into my house and shoot my child or shoot my dogs or destroy my property or beat me for my "own good", your not protecting me, nor are you serving me." [Because that's what cops do when they catch you smoking a bit of the reefer.]: ~

Not typical cop behavior.

"I start a hotdog stand to compete with the gross monopoly price the college cafeteria charges. I do not have permission to set up this hotdog stand. After many futile attempts by campus security and staff to instruct me to leave, the police arrive. They ask me to leave, and I refuse. They then approach me to put me under arrest. I obviously do not want to be kidnapped, so I resist arrest. They begin beating me and attempting to handcuff me. They fail to subdue me, and I escape. They draw their guns on me. In self defense, I pull my own gun. They shoot me dead.:

He had no right to pull his gun, as resisting arrest does not constitute self-defense.

: "You can't choose not to be black, but you can choose not to be an extortionist for the government. Therefor, they actually have proven themselves to be thieves by being a cop, wheras being black has not proven you to be a thief."

Unsupported assertion.

This is the most hilarious thing I've read in a while.

While I don't agree with all of the bolded, they are actually reasonable questions/arguments.

No, they aren't. I'll point out specifically why above.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown