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Retardation and the Death Sentence.

Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/25/2010 2:40:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
This story poses a few questions.
http://www.mirror.co.uk...

How retarded do you have to be that are no longer thought fully culpable for your crimes, or if you prefer how intelligent do you need to be before you are held culpable for your crimes?

The woman in question has an IQ of 72, does anyone know what that equates to in terms of mental age? It seems to me that if you are intelligent enough to hire hitmen you are intelligent enough to understand that there may be an issue with that and you may end up ending a life.

She is also has some form of personality disorder, which may very well simply be the result of a low IQ, who knows such disorders often seem to be built on shaky science.

I am more disgusted by the fact that there is an EU ambassador to the US and he feels it apropriate to officially speak on the matter. Who does he represent? Why wasn't he just laughed at when he presented his credentials...anyway... that is neither here nor there.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/25/2010 3:04:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 2:56:16 AM, badger wrote:
i'm more disgusted by the fact that she got death and the hitmen got life in jail.

How does that work...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/25/2010 5:30:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
This just happened in my state.
I am against the death penalty because of probability of mistake, but she deserved it.
My family has been following this case for a while, and everyone feels that she should have been executed.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/25/2010 12:13:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 2:56:16 AM, badger wrote:
i'm more disgusted by the fact that she got death and the hitmen got life in jail.

I found that quite troublesome myself.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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9/25/2010 12:33:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Are really really evil stupid people less of a threat to society? Are they less culpable of their deeds? Is there a certain point in the IQ scale where right and wrong is understood?
Even a dog knows when he's done wrong. Are we removing guilt because of stupidity or just the sentence? If one why not the other? I just don't see a change in the administration of justice due to intelligence.
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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9/25/2010 12:39:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
If a person kills someone, it is bad.
If a mentally retarded person kills someone, it ought to be deemed bad as well.
Why?
They both have violated someone's social contract, and the punishment ought to be the same.
There should be no arbitrary point at which it is OK for the mentally unfit person to kill someone and get away with it without due punishment.
I miss the old members.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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9/25/2010 12:52:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Either you are responsible for your actions, or, if you haven't enough brain to make that the case, you are not to be considered human, and have no rights. Both moral responsibility and human rights result from the same capacity.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/25/2010 12:55:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 12:52:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Either you are responsible for your actions, or, if you haven't enough brain to make that the case, you are not to be considered human, and have no rights. Both moral responsibility and human rights result from the same capacity.

I was just thinking about that. If the woman was supposably too "retarded" to be aware of what she was doing how did she do it in the first place. Clearly she wanted her husband dead and knew what hitmen were for and hired one.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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9/25/2010 12:56:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
There is nothing criminal in hiring a hitman.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/25/2010 12:59:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 12:58:15 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:57:26 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:56:27 PM, Reasoning wrote:
There is nothing criminal in hiring a hitman.

Yes there is. It's first degree murder.

He doesn't think anything is criminal/legal/moral/immoral/anything.

I'm sure that whatever his ideal society is would be chaos then.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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9/25/2010 12:59:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 12:58:15 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:57:26 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:56:27 PM, Reasoning wrote:
There is nothing criminal in hiring a hitman.

Yes there is. It's first degree murder.

He doesn't think anything is criminal/legal/moral/immoral/anything.

Some things are criminal, certainly. They just aren't immoral.

Hiring a hitman is not criminal. Murder is criminal. Neither is immoral.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/25/2010 12:59:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 12:33:38 PM, innomen wrote:
I just don't see a change in the administration of justice due to intelligence.

Do you think an 8 year old should be held accountable to the same degree as a 28 year old?
President of DDO
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/25/2010 1:00:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 12:59:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:58:15 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:57:26 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:56:27 PM, Reasoning wrote:
There is nothing criminal in hiring a hitman.

Yes there is. It's first degree murder.

He doesn't think anything is criminal/legal/moral/immoral/anything.

Some things are criminal, certainly. They just aren't immoral.

Hiring a hitman is not criminal. Murder is criminal. Neither is immoral.

Murder isn't immoral? lmao!
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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9/25/2010 1:01:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 12:59:50 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:33:38 PM, innomen wrote:
I just don't see a change in the administration of justice due to intelligence.

Do you think an 8 year old should be held accountable to the same degree as a 28 year old?
If said 8 year old is in full awareness of his actions and knew exactly what he/she was doing, then yes.
I miss the old members.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/25/2010 1:02:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 12:59:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Hiring a hitman is not criminal. Murder is criminal. Neither is immoral.

Seriously? Hiring a hitman is indeed criminal as you're an accessory to murder.

Also, "neither is immoral" is just your opinion, and again you repeating your beliefs is getting redundant. I could sit here and say "murder is immoral" and it will have the same effect in terms of our contribution to the discussion.
President of DDO
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/25/2010 1:03:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 1:01:29 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:59:50 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:33:38 PM, innomen wrote:
I just don't see a change in the administration of justice due to intelligence.

Do you think an 8 year old should be held accountable to the same degree as a 28 year old?
If said 8 year old is in full awareness of his actions and knew exactly what he/she was doing, then yes.

I generally agree with this. Youth usually get lighter sentences for crimes they have committed. However, most of them are fully aware of what they're doing so I see no reason why they can't be punished in the same way.
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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9/25/2010 1:03:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 1:02:20 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:59:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Hiring a hitman is not criminal. Murder is criminal. Neither is immoral.

Seriously? Hiring a hitman is indeed criminal as you're an accessory to murder.

Also, "neither is immoral" is just your opinion, and again you repeating your beliefs is getting redundant. I could sit here and say "murder is immoral" and it will have the same effect in terms of our contribution to the discussion.

Which is to say, it won't have any contribution.
I miss the old members.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/25/2010 1:03:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 1:01:29 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:59:50 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:33:38 PM, innomen wrote:
I just don't see a change in the administration of justice due to intelligence.

Do you think an 8 year old should be held accountable to the same degree as a 28 year old?
If said 8 year old is in full awareness of his actions and knew exactly what he/she was doing, then yes.

I'm pretty sure it gets fishy there but okay :)
President of DDO
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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9/25/2010 1:04:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 12:59:50 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:33:38 PM, innomen wrote:
I just don't see a change in the administration of justice due to intelligence.

Do you think an 8 year old should be held accountable to the same degree as a 28 year old?

Maturity =/= Intelligence
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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9/25/2010 1:04:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 1:02:20 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:59:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Hiring a hitman is not criminal. Murder is criminal. Neither is immoral.

Seriously? Hiring a hitman is indeed criminal as you're an accessory to murder.

Hiring a hitman does not violate the NAP, it is not invasion. Just as offering a bribe is not invasion.

Also, "neither is immoral" is just your opinion

It is objective fact.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/25/2010 1:05:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 1:04:23 PM, innomen wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:59:50 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:33:38 PM, innomen wrote:
I just don't see a change in the administration of justice due to intelligence.

Do you think an 8 year old should be held accountable to the same degree as a 28 year old?

Maturity =/= Intelligence

Notice I was never arguing against anything you said but simply asking a question. What's your answer?
President of DDO
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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9/25/2010 1:06:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 1:03:39 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 1:01:29 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:59:50 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:33:38 PM, innomen wrote:
I just don't see a change in the administration of justice due to intelligence.

Do you think an 8 year old should be held accountable to the same degree as a 28 year old?
If said 8 year old is in full awareness of his actions and knew exactly what he/she was doing, then yes.


I'm pretty sure it gets fishy there but okay :)
Yeah, I knew people would say to what degree.
Basically, to the degree that if said 8 year old were asked what would happen should said 8 year old fire a gun on the 8 year old's father, his thoughts would be something along the lines of,
"A big boom would happen, and then that sticky red water would come out of Daddy, and Daddy would stop moving and he would be put in the ground forever and ever, and Mommy would be sad."
I miss the old members.
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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9/25/2010 1:07:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 1:06:06 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 9/25/2010 1:03:39 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 1:01:29 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:59:50 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:33:38 PM, innomen wrote:
I just don't see a change in the administration of justice due to intelligence.

Do you think an 8 year old should be held accountable to the same degree as a 28 year old?
If said 8 year old is in full awareness of his actions and knew exactly what he/she was doing, then yes.


I'm pretty sure it gets fishy there but okay :)
Yeah, I knew people would say to what degree.
Basically, to the degree that if said 8 year old were asked what would happen should said 8 year old fire a gun on the 8 year old's father, his answer would be something along the lines of,
"A big boom would happen, and then that sticky red water would come out of Daddy, and Daddy would stop moving and he would be put in the ground forever and ever, and Mommy would be sad."
I miss the old members.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/25/2010 1:07:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/25/2010 1:04:52 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 9/25/2010 1:02:20 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 9/25/2010 12:59:13 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Hiring a hitman is not criminal. Murder is criminal. Neither is immoral.

Seriously? Hiring a hitman is indeed criminal as you're an accessory to murder.

Hiring a hitman does not violate the NAP, it is not invasion. Just as offering a bribe is not invasion.

An accessory is a person who assists in the commission of a crime, but who does not actually participate in the commission of the crime as a joint principal.

The punishment tariff for accessories varies in different jurisdictions, and has varied at different periods of history. In some times and places accessories have been subject to lesser penalties than principals (the persons who actually commit the crime). In others accessories are considered the same as principals in theory, although in a particular case an accessory may be treated less severely than a principal. In some times and places accessories before the fact have been treated differently from accessories after the fact. Common law traditionally considers an accessory just as guilty as the principal(s) in a crime, and subject to the same penalties. Separate and lesser punishments exist by statute in many jurisdictions.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It is objective fact.

It is probably not.
President of DDO