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Rising mortality: White middle-aged Americans

Raisor
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11/7/2015 12:11:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
There has been a lot of buzz after a recent study that finds there is a rise in the mortality of white Americans between 45-54. The study finds that this increase amounts to an additional 500,000 deaths and the authors compare the magnitude of their findings to the AIDS epidemic.

http://www.pnas.org...

What is interesting is that the cause of this is not attributed to overeating, lack of exercise, or the stereotypical culprits of US health problems, but instead to an increase in suicide, opiate abuse, and alcohol abuse. Additionally, this increase is found only in white Americans in this demographic.

There have been a few commentators attributing the finding to increased financial strain on this demographic and a disappearance of fulfilling jobs available to people without college education. But this doesn't seem to account for the racial disparity of the findings.

http://www.theatlantic.com...

What do you think the cause of this finding is, and what sort of public policy implications does this have?
imabench
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11/7/2015 12:41:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 12:11:56 AM, Raisor wrote:

http://www.pnas.org...

What is interesting is that the cause of this is not attributed to overeating, lack of exercise, or the stereotypical culprits of US health problems, but instead to an increase in suicide, opiate abuse, and alcohol abuse. Additionally, this increase is found only in white Americans in this demographic.

There have been a few commentators attributing the finding to increased financial strain on this demographic and a disappearance of fulfilling jobs available to people without college education. But this doesn't seem to account for the racial disparity of the findings.

http://www.theatlantic.com...

What do you think the cause of this finding is, and what sort of public policy implications does this have?

Well white people have always been more prone to commit suicide than blacks or hispanics ( http://students.com.miami.edu... ) But i dont think it has changed that much going into 2016. The only thing I could think of that would explain the racial disparity issue of why white mortality rate spiked while blacks and hispanics did not was if the recession simply hit white people the hardest, while blacks and hispanics had it about equally bad as they did both before and after the recession went into full swing.... But I would bet against that being the case
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thett3
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11/7/2015 3:33:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
What do they have to live for that hasn't been lost?

There is no group that has lost more of the intangible things that make life worth living than working class white people in that age bracket. Minorities too suffer from the effects of social atomization and the destruction of the community that's been happening in America, but they're coming out of a period of great oppression. Their status is rising. Hard to argue that life for a middle aged black person was better in their youth than it is today. Can the same be said for middle aged whites? Particularly those who come from the lower classes.

At the very least it's an open question. Charles Murray wrote a lot about this in "Coming Apart"...there's a lot to be said, but the essential point is that there is irrefutable data that the white working class community has virtually been obliterated. Middle aged whites are just old enough to remember how things used to be. They watched their cohesive communities and fulfilling jobs vanish into what they today right before their eyes.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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11/7/2015 3:39:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 3:33:32 AM, thett3 wrote:
What do they have to live for that hasn't been lost?

There is no group that has lost more of the intangible things that make life worth living than working class white people in that age bracket. Minorities too suffer from the effects of social atomization and the destruction of the community that's been happening in America, but they're coming out of a period of great oppression. Their status is rising. Hard to argue that life for a middle aged black person was better in their youth than it is today. Can the same be said for middle aged whites? Particularly those who come from the lower classes.

At the very least it's an open question. Charles Murray wrote a lot about this in "Coming Apart"...there's a lot to be said, but the essential point is that there is irrefutable data that the white working class community has virtually been obliterated. Middle aged whites are just old enough to remember how things used to be. They watched their cohesive communities and fulfilling jobs vanish into what they today right before their eyes.

If I were to be reincarnated as someone else and could be at my prime either in 1965 or 2015 and I only knew my race and my class, I would choose to live in 2015 every time. I would have to be dragged kicking and screaming into 1965...unless I knew I was destined to be a working class/lower middle class white person, and my preference is totally reversed.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
imabench
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11/7/2015 3:43:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 3:33:32 AM, thett3 wrote:
What do they have to live for that hasn't been lost?

Being on the good end of the gender pay gap and the race pay gap that far and away benefits white men than any other segment of society is a good start.... The unemployment rate for whites is down to about 5% whereas for blacks and hispanics its still hovering around 8-10% as well. White people are still treated better by police than blacks or hispanics as well, so there's that.... Shall I keep going?
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thett3
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11/7/2015 3:55:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 3:43:06 AM, imabench wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:33:32 AM, thett3 wrote:
What do they have to live for that hasn't been lost?

Being on the good end of the gender pay gap and the race pay gap that far and away benefits white men than any other segment of society is a good start.... The unemployment rate for whites is down to about 5% whereas for blacks and hispanics its still hovering around 8-10% as well. White people are still treated better by police than blacks or hispanics as well, so there's that.... Shall I keep going?

I'm not sure you really understood the point of my post. A middle aged black person would have witnessed their family members overcome discrimination and segregation. They would've witnessed their status rise, their living standards skyrocket, and the election of the first black president. A middle aged Hispanic person would likely have been born in another nation and come into this nation, potentially having nothing and realizing all to well what the alternative could have been. A middle aged working class white person would have grown up watching their father make enough to raise a family from a blue collar job in a cohesive, trusting community. They then would've watched, likely feeling like an utter failure, as these very things are denied to them.

No group has suffered a bigger decline in status than lower class whites. Most other groups of all races and social statuses have seen a rise in quality of life--they have evidence and reason to hope that things get better. Lower class whites have the exact opposite of these experiences

There's a lot more that goes into happiness than just material wellbeing or freedom from oppression--if this wasn't the case, suicide rates would've been extremely high in the past when virtually everyone suffered grinding poverty. The intangible things that make life worth living, things like community, self respect (aka not feeling like a failure), family...these are things that have, more or less, improved or remained steady for every race and social class except for the white working class where they have significantly declined. This I think goes a long way to explaining why these deaths are occurring.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
imabench
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11/7/2015 4:02:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 3:55:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:43:06 AM, imabench wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:33:32 AM, thett3 wrote:
What do they have to live for that hasn't been lost?

Being on the good end of the gender pay gap and the race pay gap that far and away benefits white men than any other segment of society is a good start.... The unemployment rate for whites is down to about 5% whereas for blacks and hispanics its still hovering around 8-10% as well. White people are still treated better by police than blacks or hispanics as well, so there's that.... Shall I keep going?

I'm not sure you really understood the point of my post. A middle aged black person would have witnessed their family members overcome discrimination and segregation. They would've witnessed their status rise, their living standards skyrocket, and the election of the first black president.

There are white people who were happy to see these things happen to black people to you know...

A middle aged working class white person would have grown up watching their father make enough to raise a family from a blue collar job in a cohesive, trusting community. They then would've watched, likely feeling like an utter failure, as these very things are denied to them.

Denied to them by who exactly? No one is denying white people the chance to get blue collar jobs, in fact im fairly certain that white males make up an overwhelming majority of people who actually do have blue collar jobs...

No group has suffered a bigger decline in status than lower class whites. Most other groups of all races and social statuses have seen a rise in quality of life--they have evidence and reason to hope that things get better. Lower class whites have the exact opposite of these experiences

There's a lot more that goes into happiness than just material wellbeing or freedom from oppression--if this wasn't the case, suicide rates would've been extremely high in the past when virtually everyone suffered grinding poverty. The intangible things that make life worth living, things like community,

Gated communities are overwhelmingly populated by white people....

self respect (aka not feeling like a failure),

Yeah thats not something that white people somehow cant get anymore...

family...

How many black people do you think are growing up with only one parent because the other either left or is in jail?.... Same thing for hispanics....

these are things that have, more or less, improved or remained steady for every race and social class except for the white working class where they have significantly declined. This I think goes a long way to explaining why these deaths are occurring.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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xus00HAY
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11/7/2015 4:05:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
While the average life expectancy has stopped rising, and AIDS and a modern high sugar high fat diet are killing some of those guys, the real killer is the modern liberated woman.
In order to feel good about himself a man needs a good job and a mate.
All those feminist lesbians have taught girls that they have a right to a job that pays as much as a man's job, so now they have almost half the high paying jobs. When they get hired for these jobs the job is no longer available for a man so there are now all these men who can't get a good job or maybe any job at all. This makes them losers a modern American woman won't want to date. So there are all these guys without good jobs or mates who feel that life is too difficult and women don't want them. They also feel guilty because they are lazy and stupid. In America it is a sin to be poor. So these guys solve their problems by killing themselves. The news media is controlled by liberals who think that feminism is good so they won't tell you why it's bad.
thett3
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11/7/2015 4:22:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 4:02:44 AM, imabench wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:55:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:43:06 AM, imabench wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:33:32 AM, thett3 wrote:
What do they have to live for that hasn't been lost?

Being on the good end of the gender pay gap and the race pay gap that far and away benefits white men than any other segment of society is a good start.... The unemployment rate for whites is down to about 5% whereas for blacks and hispanics its still hovering around 8-10% as well. White people are still treated better by police than blacks or hispanics as well, so there's that.... Shall I keep going?

I'm not sure you really understood the point of my post. A middle aged black person would have witnessed their family members overcome discrimination and segregation. They would've witnessed their status rise, their living standards skyrocket, and the election of the first black president.

There are white people who were happy to see these things happen to black people to you know...

Of course. But you're never going to feel as happy as you would for your own peoples advancement--the point is that virtually every other group has reason for optimism, or at least ample reason to believe that their station in life isn't going to get worse. For working class whites that expectation is reversed--they have ample reason to believe that things for them are only going to get worse. And they are.


A middle aged working class white person would have grown up watching their father make enough to raise a family from a blue collar job in a cohesive, trusting community. They then would've watched, likely feeling like an utter failure, as these very things are denied to them.

Denied to them by who exactly? No one is denying white people the chance to get blue collar jobs, in fact im fairly certain that white males make up an overwhelming majority of people who actually do have blue collar jobs...

Denied to them by economic and social reality. I don't know why the white working class community descended into nothingness. I don't know why so many of the jobs dried up (although I have a few ideas). But there's no denying that it happened.


No group has suffered a bigger decline in status than lower class whites. Most other groups of all races and social statuses have seen a rise in quality of life--they have evidence and reason to hope that things get better. Lower class whites have the exact opposite of these experiences

There's a lot more that goes into happiness than just material wellbeing or freedom from oppression--if this wasn't the case, suicide rates would've been extremely high in the past when virtually everyone suffered grinding poverty. The intangible things that make life worth living, things like community,

Gated communities are overwhelmingly populated by white people....

I'm talking about working class white people. My thesis is that it's the decline in status and intangible living standards in *that* community that drove the rising death rates among whites. I'm willing to accept evidence that I'm wrong--for example, if I were shown that suicide and drug abuse rates among lower class whites remained the same but increased for the upper class. Saying "But most white people are well off!!11!!!" is not something I deny and is totally missing the point.

self respect (aka not feeling like a failure),

Yeah thats not something that white people somehow cant get anymore...

I don't really know what you're trying to say here, but I'll just note that the average middle aged working class black or hispanic person is living a life far superior to that of their parents. They have reason for pride. A 55 year old working class white person probably had a dad who fought in WWII or Korea, held a steady job, raised a traditional family...some working class whites manage to eke it out, but like I've argued there is ample evidence that that community has suffered greatly. They have ample reason to feel like a failure compared to what their older family members managed to accomplish.


family...

How many black people do you think are growing up with only one parent because the other either left or is in jail?.... Same thing for hispanics....

Here's the issue with your argument here and throughout this thread: It's not a contest for who has things worse.

I can't speak for the black community, but I know that Hispanics almost always have extremely large immediate and extended families. The family situation of the poor black community seems to be incredibly bleak, but they have been for a while. People were worrying about the decline of the black family since the civil rights era--middle aged blacks wouldn't be old enough to remember what family structures were like before that. Middle aged whites can. This is trying to explain the *rise* in suicide/alcoholism rates--as bad as things may be for minorities, if they haven't gotten much *worse* we can't expect their suicide rates to *increase* because the pressures driving those rates haven't increased for them. They have for working class whites.

A point Murray brought up in Coming Apart was that marriage rates have decreased from nearly universal to almost to the vanishing point among working class whites within a generation. There's no denying that family structure has been damaged in this community.


these are things that have, more or less, improved or remained steady for every race and social class except for the white working class where they have significantly declined. This I think goes a long way to explaining why these deaths are occurring.
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"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Vox_Veritas
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11/7/2015 4:23:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Possible causes:
-Higher calorie diet than in the past
-Stressful workplace
-Less sleep
-Lower amounts of exercise than ever before
-Greater promiscuity than in the past
-Alcohol consumption and cigarette usage
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1harderthanyouthink
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11/7/2015 4:35:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 4:23:12 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Possible causes:
-Higher calorie diet than in the past

I think what was referenced pointed out this is not the case.

-Stressful workplace

For those who have jobs, maybe. Or at least jobs that pay as much as they did before.

-Less sleep

Probably not the case.

I found this interesting: http://www.livescience.com...

-Lower amounts of exercise than ever before

Possible.

-Greater promiscuity than in the past

I doubt that this would lead to a spike in suicide rates.

-Alcohol consumption and cigarette usage

Yes - though more so illicit drugs than cigarettes.
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Contra
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11/8/2015 8:58:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 3:43:06 AM, imabench wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:33:32 AM, thett3 wrote:
What do they have to live for that hasn't been lost?

Being on the good end of the gender pay gap

Repeat after me - there is no gender pay gap...
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j50wells
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11/9/2015 3:31:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Fulfilling jobs because of lack of education? Wow, these guys are slick. I think their play book forces them to think this. Actually, the truth about suicide is much more real.
White males are seeing the culture, that made our nation the greatest nation in the history of the world, slipping away. The autonomy of our nation, which was built on John Locke, Jefferson, and George Washington is being ripped to shreds by a socialist movement that more resembles the socialism of Europe. America is being absorbed by a powerful movement to stamp out national sovereignty and to blend all races and cultures together under a banner of world-wide socialism controlled by powerful corporations, and seductive, smooth talking politicians. The white male, who is well versed in freedom, knows what this means. Tyranny. In the near future, if we don't stop this movement, we will all be wards of the state. White males know this, and have no way to stop it.
Furthermore, the real reason for men to be happy and thrive, and make money, has been ripped from their hands. Women are the real reason that men do the things they do. They will build, leap buildings in a single bound, work 80 hours a week, and fight to the death to protect their women. A wife that respects him, and kids that love him, is the most deepest yearning of a man, and especially of white men who were brought up in a culture of family values, and gentlemanly ways. Today, however, women have been seduced by the media. Women have been told that white, American males are evil, dumb, stupid, bad, rapists, child-molesters, worthless, and their penis size is measured in millimeters, not inches. None of this is true. But in our culture, truth no longer matters. What the media says is what matters.
White males are beginning to lose hope. Their whole reason for existence was to work and build a life that involved a loyal and kind wife, and kids that respected him. These dreams involved sweet evenings by the fire place with the wife, and great moments with their children, playing in the yard, fishing on the river, and camping in the mountains. But women don't want these things anymore. Todays women want money, power, great sex without commitment, and more shops.
Men are giving up. They are turning to the bottle for happiness, and drugs to bury their sorrows. They are losing hope.
This won't change. The world-wide socialist movement's whole goal is to demonize and ridicule any and all men who love freedom and family. And they know where the demon lair of freedom resides. Right here in white America. Notice how they don't demonize white American women. They don't need to. Women are very gullible and are easily tricked by socialism. White, American men are not tricked. The socialist engineers know this. Which is why there will be no relief for the white American man.
But, in the end, there will be no relief for anyone. In the end, we will all run to the bottle to drown our sorrows. Suicide will increase but will be ignored by the media. Once the white American male is out of the way, the socialist engineers will have nothing to stop them from their one-world, Communist empire. Communism didn't go away, my friend. It just re-invented itself to look more kind, and warm, and friendly. But it is none of those things. It is the most evil thing ever invented in history, and always leads to the most deaths, murders, and genocides in world history.
imabench
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11/10/2015 7:08:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/8/2015 8:58:56 PM, Contra wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:43:06 AM, imabench wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:33:32 AM, thett3 wrote:
What do they have to live for that hasn't been lost?

Being on the good end of the gender pay gap

Repeat after me - there is no gender pay gap...

Is that how libertarians try to win arguments these days? Just saying repeat after them without providing evidence for their claims? smh
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7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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imabench
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11/10/2015 7:21:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 4:22:15 AM, thett3 wrote:

But you're never going to feel as happy as you would for your own peoples advancement-

What else is there for white males that hasnt been accomplished yet? We're at the top of the totem pole already. We've got it all.

A middle aged working class white person would have grown up watching their father make enough to raise a family from a blue collar job in a cohesive, trusting community. They then would've watched, likely feeling like an utter failure, as these very things are denied to them.

Denied to them by who exactly? No one is denying white people the chance to get blue collar jobs

Denied to them by economic and social reality.

The unemployment rate is down to 5%, give me something other than regurgitated garbage

My thesis is that it's the decline in status and intangible living standards in *that* community that drove the rising death rates among whites. I'm willing to accept evidence that I'm wrong--for example, if I were shown that suicide and drug abuse rates among lower class whites remained the same but increased for the upper class.

How many upper class white people abuse the living hell out of prescription drugs? Im willing to bet that its more than working class white people on account of how expensive medicine is these days.

self respect (aka not feeling like a failure),

Yeah thats not something that white people somehow cant get anymore...

I don't really know what you're trying to say here,

The argument was that white people arent somehow incapable of having self-respect like you are implying they are.

Here's the issue with your argument here and throughout this thread: It's not a contest for who has things worse.

It puts things into perspective. Every bs argument about how 'bad' white people have it applies double or even triple to hispanics and blacks.

This is trying to explain the *rise* in suicide/alcoholism rates--as bad as things may be for minorities, if they haven't gotten much *worse* we can't expect their suicide rates to *increase* because the pressures driving those rates haven't increased for them.

Except that things still ARE very bad for minorities and it did get very bad for them in this country, much more so than white people, yet the suicide rate for hispanics and blacks have stabilized while for white people it shot up


these are things that have, more or less, improved or remained steady for every race and social class except for the white working class where they have significantly declined. This I think goes a long way to explaining why these deaths are occurring.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
imabench
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11/10/2015 7:23:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 3:31:35 AM, j50wells wrote:
Fulfilling jobs because of lack of education? Wow, these guys are slick. I think their play book forces them to think this. Actually, the truth about suicide is much more real.
White males are seeing the culture, that made our nation the greatest nation in the history of the world, slipping away. The autonomy of our nation, which was built on John Locke, Jefferson, and George Washington is being ripped to shreds by a socialist movement that more resembles the socialism of Europe. America is being absorbed by a powerful movement to stamp out national sovereignty and to blend all races and cultures together under a banner of world-wide socialism controlled by powerful corporations, and seductive, smooth talking politicians. The white male, who is well versed in freedom, knows what this means. Tyranny. In the near future, if we don't stop this movement, we will all be wards of the state. White males know this, and have no way to stop it.
Furthermore, the real reason for men to be happy and thrive, and make money, has been ripped from their hands. Women are the real reason that men do the things they do. They will build, leap buildings in a single bound, work 80 hours a week, and fight to the death to protect their women. A wife that respects him, and kids that love him, is the most deepest yearning of a man, and especially of white men who were brought up in a culture of family values, and gentlemanly ways. Today, however, women have been seduced by the media. Women have been told that white, American males are evil, dumb, stupid, bad, rapists, child-molesters, worthless, and their penis size is measured in millimeters, not inches. None of this is true. But in our culture, truth no longer matters. What the media says is what matters.
White males are beginning to lose hope. Their whole reason for existence was to work and build a life that involved a loyal and kind wife, and kids that respected him. These dreams involved sweet evenings by the fire place with the wife, and great moments with their children, playing in the yard, fishing on the river, and camping in the mountains. But women don't want these things anymore. Todays women want money, power, great sex without commitment, and more shops.
Men are giving up. They are turning to the bottle for happiness, and drugs to bury their sorrows. They are losing hope.
This won't change. The world-wide socialist movement's whole goal is to demonize and ridicule any and all men who love freedom and family. And they know where the demon lair of freedom resides. Right here in white America. Notice how they don't demonize white American women. They don't need to. Women are very gullible and are easily tricked by socialism. White, American men are not tricked. The socialist engineers know this. Which is why there will be no relief for the white American man.
But, in the end, there will be no relief for anyone. In the end, we will all run to the bottle to drown our sorrows. Suicide will increase but will be ignored by the media. Once the white American male is out of the way, the socialist engineers will have nothing to stop them from their one-world, Communist empire. Communism didn't go away, my friend. It just re-invented itself to look more kind, and warm, and friendly. But it is none of those things. It is the most evil thing ever invented in history, and always leads to the most deaths, murders, and genocides in world history.

That could very well be the stupidest thing I have ever read. You sir, are an idiot.
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xus00HAY
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11/18/2015 2:48:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
While I suppose it may be a combination of things that influence suicide, perhaps they feel that they have not accomplished what is important, such as starting a family and breeding children. and they will not in the future.
Now that the lesbians have taught women that it is bad to be feminine, fewer of them think getting married is a good thing unless it is to a superior man. This leads to some men living in isolation.
thett3
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11/18/2015 7:19:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Any who think that I exaggerate should have a look at this recent study by a husband-and-wife team of economists from Princeton. They"ve found that death rates among middle-aged working-class white men have risen by 22% over the course of only the past fifteen years " an increase that is shocking both in its number and in the rapidity with which this phenomenon appeared. The increase can be attributed entirely to three causes: drugs (particularly prescription painkiller abuse), alcohol, and suicide. These are men in their forties or fifties (ones who entered the workforce just as trade agreements of the likes of NAFTA and GATT were being enacted) who in an earlier era would be settled into a comfortable existence. They would be respected in their communities, at home, and at work, where they would have seniority built up, and perhaps would have made foreman or shift supervisor or shop steward. Their sons at home, and the young guys just starting out at work, would look up to them and seek their advice. They would be beginning to think of retirement, on a generous and well-earned pension that would take care of them for as long as they lasted, and of their wives after they were gone.

And now, by the thousands, they are literally dying of despair in a society that no longer needs them, no longer respects them, and no longer has any place for them. There is not even any sympathy for them " as their jobs disappear and their marriages and families disintegrate, the society that once wrote songs about them now only tells them that an endless list of the problems of people who they have never met can be laid at the feet of their "privilege". I wonder " do "privileged" people often drink themselves to death, die of overdoses of pills designed to take away their pain, or commit suicide because nothing better lies ahead of them?" https://antidem.wordpress.com...
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
xus00HAY
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11/19/2015 1:34:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The younger generation of Americans will think there are 2 kinds of people, lucky people and ordinary people. the majority of them will grow up in homes where the father has a low paying job, or no job at all, and the mother probably will not be well paid either. They will hate the lucky people because they have SO much more than we do and can't help but resent it. Therefore becoming upper middle class will not be something they will expect to become.
JMcKinley
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11/19/2015 3:56:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 7:21:45 PM, imabench wrote:
At 11/7/2015 4:22:15 AM, thett3 wrote:

But you're never going to feel as happy as you would for your own peoples advancement-

What else is there for white males that hasnt been accomplished yet? We're at the top of the totem pole already. We've got it all.

A middle aged working class white person would have grown up watching their father make enough to raise a family from a blue collar job in a cohesive, trusting community. They then would've watched, likely feeling like an utter failure, as these very things are denied to them.

Denied to them by who exactly? No one is denying white people the chance to get blue collar jobs

Denied to them by economic and social reality.

The unemployment rate is down to 5%, give me something other than regurgitated garbage

My thesis is that it's the decline in status and intangible living standards in *that* community that drove the rising death rates among whites. I'm willing to accept evidence that I'm wrong--for example, if I were shown that suicide and drug abuse rates among lower class whites remained the same but increased for the upper class.

How many upper class white people abuse the living hell out of prescription drugs? Im willing to bet that its more than working class white people on account of how expensive medicine is these days.

self respect (aka not feeling like a failure),

Yeah thats not something that white people somehow cant get anymore...

I don't really know what you're trying to say here,

The argument was that white people arent somehow incapable of having self-respect like you are implying they are.

Here's the issue with your argument here and throughout this thread: It's not a contest for who has things worse.

It puts things into perspective. Every bs argument about how 'bad' white people have it applies double or even triple to hispanics and blacks.

This is trying to explain the *rise* in suicide/alcoholism rates--as bad as things may be for minorities, if they haven't gotten much *worse* we can't expect their suicide rates to *increase* because the pressures driving those rates haven't increased for them.

Except that things still ARE very bad for minorities and it did get very bad for them in this country, much more so than white people, yet the suicide rate for hispanics and blacks have stabilized while for white people it shot up




these are things that have, more or less, improved or remained steady for every race and social class except for the white working class where they have significantly declined. This I think goes a long way to explaining why these deaths are occurring.

I think that you are totally missing his point although he has explained it rather well.

He's not arguing that whites have it worse than other demographics. Because if he was, he'd be demonstrably wrong. He's talking about the direction that things are going, and have been going, not the place they currently are.

Even though things still aren't as good for minorities and women as they are for white males, they are making steady progress. Things are improving across the board for the most part, perhaps not as quickly as we would like, but things take time. So the average middle aged black man or white woman can look back and see that his/her life has probably improved, and look forward to see that it will continue to improve for the foreseeable future. This is progress, and it creates hope, pride, and optimism.

Even though things are still better for white males than minorities and women, things haven't been getting easier for us. They are getting more difficult. We have more competition for jobs due to the rise of women and minorities, and North America is no longer booming like it was. So we've gone from being undisputed top dogs in a booming market, to being just slight frontrunners in a market that is grasping for economic stability. That is a net-loss. So while we're still ahead of the game compared to other groups, the direction of our progress is negative, which creates feelings of anxiety, hopelessness and ineptitude. This may lead to increased suicide rates.

For example, my father was an electrician working for a small contractor. My mother stayed at home and ran a small daycare business. My father built a big house on a nice piece of waterfront property and had 3 children by the age of 27. We had a good comfortable life with family vacations in the summer and hockey/figure skating in the winter. But fast forward to today. Now I'm married and work as an engineer at the age of 27. I have a much better job than my father did, and my wife also makes a good wage. Things are going well for me and I am very happy with my life. But I can't even remotely afford to build a house, much less one of the same size as my father's with a waterfront view. And I can't imagine doing that while supporting 3 children. If this were the "good ole days" I'd be having no trouble with these things. A white man with my credentials and job was much better off 20-30 years ago than he is today.

This backwards slide in status doesn't exist for other demographics. Due to social revolutions their status has seen a steady rise despite recent economic problems. So yes things are still better for white males than other groups. But something that is unique to the white male group is that our status is declining.

So the overall argument is that it might not be the current state of affairs that affects suicide rates, but how those affairs are changing over time. People who who have crappy lives but with expectations of improvement could be less prone to suicide than people with better lives who have expectations of a diminishing quality of life.
xus00HAY
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11/21/2015 2:49:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am gonna make a guess here and propose this has something to do with the AIDS epidemic. People in this age group may have been at an age when they were more sexually active or promiscuous, at the early part of the aids epidemic. Later on people were much more aware of AIDS and they had sex with fewer people and used condoms more often. Therefore people who are just a little bit younger are less likely to have picked up the virus somewhere. They may have been in elementary school when people who were a few years older were meeting attractive strangers at the disco, and then going out to the parking lot and doing it in some guy's van.
xus00HAY
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11/21/2015 2:58:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I mean really, when was the last time you saw a van with a license plate frame that said " if this van is rockin, don't come a knockin'
There is now so much negativity in the dating scene now, the only one who is positive is Charlie Sheen.
jimtimmy8
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11/26/2015 2:21:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 3:43:06 AM, imabench wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:33:32 AM, thett3 wrote:
What do they have to live for that hasn't been lost?

Being on the good end of the gender pay gap and the race pay gap that far and away benefits white men than any other segment of society is a good start.... The unemployment rate for whites is down to about 5% whereas for blacks and hispanics its still hovering around 8-10% as well. White people are still treated better by police than blacks or hispanics as well, so there's that.... Shall I keep going?

What do you make of the pay gap that 'unfairly' benefits asians and jews over regular whites? Or the better treatment that police give women over men?
MakeSensePeopleDont
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11/26/2015 12:37:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 12:11:56 AM, Raisor wrote:
There has been a lot of buzz after a recent study that finds there is a rise in the mortality of white Americans between 45-54. The study finds that this increase amounts to an additional 500,000 deaths and the authors compare the magnitude of their findings to the AIDS epidemic.

http://www.pnas.org...

What is interesting is that the cause of this is not attributed to overeating, lack of exercise, or the stereotypical culprits of US health problems, but instead to an increase in suicide, opiate abuse, and alcohol abuse. Additionally, this increase is found only in white Americans in this demographic.

There have been a few commentators attributing the finding to increased financial strain on this demographic and a disappearance of fulfilling jobs available to people without college education. But this doesn't seem to account for the racial disparity of the findings.

http://www.theatlantic.com...

What do you think the cause of this finding is, and what sort of public policy implications does this have?

Unfortunately, the studies made public, such as the ones you point out, do not touch on some very important points; most likely do to political correctness and fear of social backlash.

Since the study is in regards to whites, strictly 45-54 age range, there are a number of factors to account for:

1) The global explosion of home computing and the internet, leading to exponentially more jobs sitting around all day with no exercise; these jobs were filled by a high percentage of White Americans

2) Diabetes in Black Americans is double the rate of White Americans, tripling over the past 30 years -- Shorter lifespan

3) Black Americans participating in gang activity at an exponentially higher rate -- shorter lifespan

4) Lung cancer, strokes, high blood pressure, cancer, sepsis (infections), heart disease and more; higher than whites -- short lifespan

Just with this small list we can see where this is going:

While Black Americans have a higher mortality rate under the age of 40, skewing the numbers for mortality rates during middle age timeline, White Americans on the other hand are sliding into occupations and lifestyles which decrease health and increase health risks. Along with the obvious illness based deaths due to the decline in healthy lifestyles, the new mundane occupations with minimal mobility and exercise directly contradicts human's natural drive and necessity to move, socialize, migrate, perform labor driven activities, etc. This leads to deep depression and anger leading to an increase in suicide rates. Adding onto this suicide rate increase is the destruction and collapse of the American economy, including offshoring and outsourcing of mass numbers of jobs, leading to financial troubles and relationship troubles.

There is your VERY basic overview of what the author and researchers either forgot to address or figured we were too stupid to catch.
MakeSensePeopleDont
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11/26/2015 12:59:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 4:02:44 AM, imabench wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:55:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
I'm not sure you really understood the point of my post. A middle aged black person would have witnessed their family members overcome discrimination and segregation. They would've witnessed their status rise, their living standards skyrocket, and the election of the first black president.

There are white people who were happy to see these things happen to black people to you know...

Yes, however, as Black Americans were the ones physically enduring all of the punishments, they would definitely get more of a moral boost from the freedoms they now take part in. Nobody can compare white and black viewpoints on this subject.

A middle aged working class white person would have grown up watching their father make enough to raise a family from a blue collar job in a cohesive, trusting community. They then would've watched, likely feeling like an utter failure, as these very things are denied to them.

Denied to them by who exactly? No one is denying white people the chance to get blue collar jobs, in fact im fairly certain that white males make up an overwhelming majority of people who actually do have blue collar jobs...

Agreed, I would change this from blue collar to white collar for it to make more sense and fit inline with actual demographics

No group has suffered a bigger decline in status than lower class whites. Most other groups of all races and social statuses have seen a rise in quality of life--they have evidence and reason to hope that things get better. Lower class whites have the exact opposite of these experiences

Should be updated to middle class to make more sense

There's a lot more that goes into happiness than just material wellbeing or freedom from oppression--if this wasn't the case, suicide rates would've been extremely high in the past when virtually everyone suffered grinding poverty. The intangible things that make life worth living, things like community,

Gated communities are overwhelmingly populated by white people....

Not sure what gated communities have to do with the price of eggs

self respect (aka not feeling like a failure),

Yeah thats not something that white people somehow cant get anymore...

I believe this is in reference to the massive loss of employment opportunities and stagnant if not vanishing earning power

family...

How many black people do you think are growing up with only one parent because the other either left or is in jail?.... Same thing for hispanics....

Well it's not White American's faults that Black American fathers tend to dip out of the family unit at a higher rate...so not sure where you're going with this one.

As far as jail is concerned, again, not White American's faults. However, since the response will be something along the lines of the justice system being rigged against Black Americans yada, yada, yada: From the Federal Bureau of Prisons -- Prisons population, as of October 2015, is Whites - 120,727 or 58.9% while Black population is 77,220 or 37.7%

https://www.bop.gov...
jimtimmy8
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11/26/2015 11:47:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 4:02:44 AM, imabench wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:55:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:43:06 AM, imabench wrote:
At 11/7/2015 3:33:32 AM, thett3 wrote:
What do they have to live for that hasn't been lost?

Being on the good end of the gender pay gap and the race pay gap that far and away benefits white men than any other segment of society is a good start.... The unemployment rate for whites is down to about 5% whereas for blacks and hispanics its still hovering around 8-10% as well. White people are still treated better by police than blacks or hispanics as well, so there's that.... Shall I keep going?

I'm not sure you really understood the point of my post. A middle aged black person would have witnessed their family members overcome discrimination and segregation. They would've witnessed their status rise, their living standards skyrocket, and the election of the first black president.

There are white people who were happy to see these things happen to black people to you know...

True.


A middle aged working class white person would have grown up watching their father make enough to raise a family from a blue collar job in a cohesive, trusting community. They then would've watched, likely feeling like an utter failure, as these very things are denied to them.

Denied to them by who exactly? No one is denying white people the chance to get blue collar jobs, in fact im fairly certain that white males make up an overwhelming majority of people who actually do have blue collar jobs...

Because, because, because, because..... white male privilege! If white men don't have disproportionate employment in a certain sector that's also white male privilege! Because reasons!


No group has suffered a bigger decline in status than lower class whites. Most other groups of all races and social statuses have seen a rise in quality of life--they have evidence and reason to hope that things get better. Lower class whites have the exact opposite of these experiences

There's a lot more that goes into happiness than just material wellbeing or freedom from oppression--if this wasn't the case, suicide rates would've been extremely high in the past when virtually everyone suffered grinding poverty. The intangible things that make life worth living, things like community,

Gated communities are overwhelmingly populated by white people....

I wonder why that is?


self respect (aka not feeling like a failure),

Yeah thats not something that white people somehow cant get anymore...

No, it's not as if academia and the media teach white self hatred or anything.


family...

How many black people do you think are growing up with only one parent because the other either left or is in jail?.... Same thing for hispanics....

I wonder why that is?


these are things that have, more or less, improved or remained steady for every race and social class except for the white working class where they have significantly declined. This I think goes a long way to explaining why these deaths are occurring.