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Politico Lies about Ben Carson

wrichcirw
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11/7/2015 11:37:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
http://www.politico.com...

Politico has had to retract several aspects of this story after being proven to be utterly false:

"The original story and headline said that Carson"s campaign had admitted he "fabricated" a "full scholarship" from West Point, but now Carson denies that his campaign"s statement constituted such an admission, and the story and headline were changed to reflect that."

West Point and all the other military academies offer a free ride to all potential applicants, and Carson has been clear that he never applied. Several other news outlets have had to correct politico on this story. An example below:

http://dailycaller.com...

http://www.breitbart.com...

I haven't seen an outright lie like this gain traction like it has for Ben Carson...usually hit pieces and "gotcha" journalism at least are based upon factual accuracies. Most of the major media outlets are still reporting that Carson has had to "retract" or "concede" that he wasn't offered a full scholarship, which according to West Point itself, is a concession that no one should have to make, because West Point itself states that that is what it offers all potential applicants. I don't recall the media engaging in Swift Boat journalism, although perhaps this is when they start doing so.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
TBR
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11/7/2015 5:27:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 11:37:53 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
http://www.politico.com...

Politico has had to retract several aspects of this story after being proven to be utterly false:

"The original story and headline said that Carson"s campaign had admitted he "fabricated" a "full scholarship" from West Point, but now Carson denies that his campaign"s statement constituted such an admission, and the story and headline were changed to reflect that."

West Point and all the other military academies offer a free ride to all potential applicants, and Carson has been clear that he never applied. Several other news outlets have had to correct politico on this story. An example below:

http://dailycaller.com...

http://www.breitbart.com...

I haven't seen an outright lie like this gain traction like it has for Ben Carson...usually hit pieces and "gotcha" journalism at least are based upon factual accuracies. Most of the major media outlets are still reporting that Carson has had to "retract" or "concede" that he wasn't offered a full scholarship, which according to West Point itself, is a concession that no one should have to make, because West Point itself states that that is what it offers all potential applicants. I don't recall the media engaging in Swift Boat journalism, although perhaps this is when they start doing so.

Wait... This is some hair splitting. He said he applied and was offered. He never applied. Bit of a technicality.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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11/7/2015 5:30:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 5:27:56 PM, TBR wrote:
At 11/7/2015 11:37:53 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
http://www.politico.com...

Politico has had to retract several aspects of this story after being proven to be utterly false:

"The original story and headline said that Carson"s campaign had admitted he "fabricated" a "full scholarship" from West Point, but now Carson denies that his campaign"s statement constituted such an admission, and the story and headline were changed to reflect that."

West Point and all the other military academies offer a free ride to all potential applicants, and Carson has been clear that he never applied. Several other news outlets have had to correct politico on this story. An example below:

http://dailycaller.com...

http://www.breitbart.com...

I haven't seen an outright lie like this gain traction like it has for Ben Carson...usually hit pieces and "gotcha" journalism at least are based upon factual accuracies. Most of the major media outlets are still reporting that Carson has had to "retract" or "concede" that he wasn't offered a full scholarship, which according to West Point itself, is a concession that no one should have to make, because West Point itself states that that is what it offers all potential applicants. I don't recall the media engaging in Swift Boat journalism, although perhaps this is when they start doing so.

Wait... This is some hair splitting. He said he applied and was offered. He never applied. Bit of a technicality.

He never said he applied.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
TBR
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11/7/2015 5:39:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Wait... This is some hair splitting. He said he applied and was offered. He never applied. Bit of a technicality.

He never said he applied.

Wait wait.... This is really sounding like "what the definition of is is". He has said numerous times "I was offered a full scholarship". There is heavy implication in there. I don't honestly care one bit, but any plain reading implies application.
wrichcirw
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11/7/2015 5:55:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 5:39:24 PM, TBR wrote:
Wait... This is some hair splitting. He said he applied and was offered. He never applied. Bit of a technicality.

He never said he applied.

Wait wait.... This is really sounding like "what the definition of is is". He has said numerous times "I was offered a full scholarship". There is heavy implication in there. I don't honestly care one bit, but any plain reading implies application.

"I was offered a full scholarship"

"I never applied to West Point".

Politico turned this into "Ben Carson lied when he said he applied and was accepted into West Point on a full scholarship"
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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11/7/2015 5:58:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 5:39:24 PM, TBR wrote:

Again, just to ensure you understand, West Point and all the other service academies offer a full ride, i.e. free tuition, room and board, and a stipend, for anyone who gets accepted. Carson was told this when he was a kid and probably thought he was getting special treatment. He was...sitting down with a general and discussing entrance into an academy is a big deal and a huge privilege that very few qualify for...but it's a privilege that anyone looking to get into an academy would be eligible for.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
TBR
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11/7/2015 6:00:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 5:55:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/7/2015 5:39:24 PM, TBR wrote:
Wait... This is some hair splitting. He said he applied and was offered. He never applied. Bit of a technicality.

He never said he applied.

Wait wait.... This is really sounding like "what the definition of is is". He has said numerous times "I was offered a full scholarship". There is heavy implication in there. I don't honestly care one bit, but any plain reading implies application.

"I was offered a full scholarship"

"I never applied to West Point".

Politico turned this into "Ben Carson lied when he said he applied and was accepted into West Point on a full scholarship"

"I was offered a full scholarship" implies he applied and was offered something. This is not a leap at all. Think of this in context of Clinton lies about "the video" and Benghazi.
Greyparrot
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11/7/2015 6:19:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 6:00:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 11/7/2015 5:55:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/7/2015 5:39:24 PM, TBR wrote:
Wait... This is some hair splitting. He said he applied and was offered. He never applied. Bit of a technicality.

He never said he applied.

Wait wait.... This is really sounding like "what the definition of is is". He has said numerous times "I was offered a full scholarship". There is heavy implication in there. I don't honestly care one bit, but any plain reading implies application.

"I was offered a full scholarship"

"I never applied to West Point".

Politico turned this into "Ben Carson lied when he said he applied and was accepted into West Point on a full scholarship"

"I was offered a full scholarship" implies he applied and was offered something. This is not a leap at all. Think of this in context of Clinton lies about "the video" and Benghazi.

You can be offered scholarships without applying right?
TBR
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11/7/2015 6:21:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You can be offered scholarships without applying right?

No, not within the context of the quotes. Again, I think it is largely a non-issue, but the bar for "lie" when speaking about your own guy changes in these cases. I find it very hypocritical.
TBR
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11/7/2015 6:30:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here is just one of the quotes.

" Later I was offered a full scholarship to West Point. I didn"t refuse the scholarship outright, but I let them know that a military career wasn"t where I saw myself going."

That is a far cry from "West Point has no scholarships, but offers free tuition in exchange for military service". So. Lie? Who cares. It painted a picture that is less than accurate. Using any of the same criteria anyone wants to apply to the "other side" this would be questionable.
wrichcirw
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11/8/2015 2:06:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 6:00:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 11/7/2015 5:55:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/7/2015 5:39:24 PM, TBR wrote:
Wait... This is some hair splitting. He said he applied and was offered. He never applied. Bit of a technicality.

He never said he applied.

Wait wait.... This is really sounding like "what the definition of is is". He has said numerous times "I was offered a full scholarship". There is heavy implication in there. I don't honestly care one bit, but any plain reading implies application.

"I was offered a full scholarship"

"I never applied to West Point".

Politico turned this into "Ben Carson lied when he said he applied and was accepted into West Point on a full scholarship"

"I was offered a full scholarship" implies he applied and was offered something. This is not a leap at all. Think of this in context of Clinton lies about "the video" and Benghazi.

Most colleges in America offer a high-quality education. That does not mean that they offer that high-quality education to applicants. It also does not mean that they offer it to those who applied and were accepted.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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11/8/2015 2:07:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
That does not mean that they offer that high-quality education to [only] applicants. It also does not mean that they offer it to [only] those who applied and were accepted.

Corrected. Also, they offer that education to everyone, but not everyone is able to take the colleges up on their offer.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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11/8/2015 2:10:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 6:30:44 PM, TBR wrote:
Here is just one of the quotes.

[...]

"West Point has no scholarships"

This is simply incorrect. If you receive free tuition and free room and board, you're receiving a full scholarship. Again, West Point's own literature states that they offer full scholarships.

Now, if you're offered a full scholarship, that does not mean that you are receiving it, nor that there are no conditions attached to that offer. There are of course myriad conditions that have to be met before one can accept West Point's offer. West Point makes that offer to all eligible US citizens, i.e. a whole lot of people.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
000ike
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11/8/2015 2:16:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 6:00:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 11/7/2015 5:55:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/7/2015 5:39:24 PM, TBR wrote:
Wait... This is some hair splitting. He said he applied and was offered. He never applied. Bit of a technicality.

He never said he applied.

Wait wait.... This is really sounding like "what the definition of is is". He has said numerous times "I was offered a full scholarship". There is heavy implication in there. I don't honestly care one bit, but any plain reading implies application.

"I was offered a full scholarship"

"I never applied to West Point".

Politico turned this into "Ben Carson lied when he said he applied and was accepted into West Point on a full scholarship"

"I was offered a full scholarship" implies he applied and was offered something. This is not a leap at all. Think of this in context of Clinton lies about "the video" and Benghazi.

nope, wrong. I was offered scholarships from universities I didn't apply to or intend on applying to. Sometimes your name is just referred to colleges via organizations like National Merit Scholarship Corporation and Collegeboard.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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11/8/2015 3:11:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/8/2015 2:16:09 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/7/2015 6:00:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 11/7/2015 5:55:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/7/2015 5:39:24 PM, TBR wrote:
Wait... This is some hair splitting. He said he applied and was offered. He never applied. Bit of a technicality.

He never said he applied.

Wait wait.... This is really sounding like "what the definition of is is". He has said numerous times "I was offered a full scholarship". There is heavy implication in there. I don't honestly care one bit, but any plain reading implies application.

"I was offered a full scholarship"

"I never applied to West Point".

Politico turned this into "Ben Carson lied when he said he applied and was accepted into West Point on a full scholarship"

"I was offered a full scholarship" implies he applied and was offered something. This is not a leap at all. Think of this in context of Clinton lies about "the video" and Benghazi.

nope, wrong. I was offered scholarships from universities I didn't apply to or intend on applying to. Sometimes your name is just referred to colleges via organizations like National Merit Scholarship Corporation and Collegeboard.

Join. The. Hangout.
TBR
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11/8/2015 3:23:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/8/2015 2:16:09 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/7/2015 6:00:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 11/7/2015 5:55:27 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/7/2015 5:39:24 PM, TBR wrote:
Wait... This is some hair splitting. He said he applied and was offered. He never applied. Bit of a technicality.

He never said he applied.

Wait wait.... This is really sounding like "what the definition of is is". He has said numerous times "I was offered a full scholarship". There is heavy implication in there. I don't honestly care one bit, but any plain reading implies application.

"I was offered a full scholarship"

"I never applied to West Point".

Politico turned this into "Ben Carson lied when he said he applied and was accepted into West Point on a full scholarship"

"I was offered a full scholarship" implies he applied and was offered something. This is not a leap at all. Think of this in context of Clinton lies about "the video" and Benghazi.

nope, wrong. I was offered scholarships from universities I didn't apply to or intend on applying to. Sometimes your name is just referred to colleges via organizations like National Merit Scholarship Corporation and Collegeboard.

Look. There is no such thing as a scholarship to west point. A liberal would be KILLED over something like this.
000ike
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11/8/2015 3:31:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/8/2015 3:11:12 AM, YYW wrote:

Join. The. Hangout.

lol eventually
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
wrichcirw
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11/9/2015 1:19:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/8/2015 3:23:50 AM, TBR wrote:

Look. There is no such thing as a scholarship to west point. A liberal would be KILLED over something like this.

- A dataset from 2014: "At the United States Military Academy all students receive a full scholarship, including room & board and medical- and dental-care are provided by the U.S. Army."

- A prospectus from 2012: "As a cadet, you are a member of the U.S. Army and receive a full scholarship and an annual salary of more than $10,000 from which you pay for your uniforms, textbooks, a laptop computer, and incidents."

- An ad in a 1991 issue of Black Enterprise magazine: "Each year about 1,400 young men and women take advantage of the opportunity to attend West Point on a full government scholarship, which includes tuition, room and board and medical care.

- An ad that appeared in a few issues of Ebony magazine in 1990: "You receive a full scholarship, earn a degree from one of the country"s finest colleges, and build a foundation for a challenging career of service to the nation."


http://www.politifact.com...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
TBR
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11/9/2015 3:02:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 1:19:21 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/8/2015 3:23:50 AM, TBR wrote:

Look. There is no such thing as a scholarship to west point. A liberal would be KILLED over something like this.

- A dataset from 2014: "At the United States Military Academy all students receive a full scholarship, including room & board and medical- and dental-care are provided by the U.S. Army."

- A prospectus from 2012: "As a cadet, you are a member of the U.S. Army and receive a full scholarship and an annual salary of more than $10,000 from which you pay for your uniforms, textbooks, a laptop computer, and incidents."

- An ad in a 1991 issue of Black Enterprise magazine: "Each year about 1,400 young men and women take advantage of the opportunity to attend West Point on a full government scholarship, which includes tuition, room and board and medical care.

- An ad that appeared in a few issues of Ebony magazine in 1990: "You receive a full scholarship, earn a degree from one of the country"s finest colleges, and build a foundation for a challenging career of service to the nation."


http://www.politifact.com...

I am asking for some intellectual honesty in this case. If Obama had said this in his book, what would you have said? Please, try answering sincerely.
wrichcirw
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11/9/2015 12:22:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 3:02:49 AM, TBR wrote:
At 11/9/2015 1:19:21 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/8/2015 3:23:50 AM, TBR wrote:

Look. There is no such thing as a scholarship to west point. A liberal would be KILLED over something like this.

- A dataset from 2014: "At the United States Military Academy all students receive a full scholarship, including room & board and medical- and dental-care are provided by the U.S. Army."

- A prospectus from 2012: "As a cadet, you are a member of the U.S. Army and receive a full scholarship and an annual salary of more than $10,000 from which you pay for your uniforms, textbooks, a laptop computer, and incidents."

- An ad in a 1991 issue of Black Enterprise magazine: "Each year about 1,400 young men and women take advantage of the opportunity to attend West Point on a full government scholarship, which includes tuition, room and board and medical care.

- An ad that appeared in a few issues of Ebony magazine in 1990: "You receive a full scholarship, earn a degree from one of the country"s finest colleges, and build a foundation for a challenging career of service to the nation."


http://www.politifact.com...

I am asking for some intellectual honesty in this case. If Obama had said this in his book, what would you have said? Please, try answering sincerely.

Are you calling West Point intellectually dishonest? Because all of those quotes came from West Point brochures.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
TBR
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11/10/2015 12:52:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Are you calling West Point intellectually dishonest? Because all of those quotes came from West Point brochures.

Here is a personal point of reference. My father got through med school on the AF. He served for 11 years obtaining the rank of Lieutenant Colonel (nice rank). He would NEVER call his commission a "scholarship". The day the deal was signed with the AF, he was IN the AF and they were paying to get a doctor out the other end.

The hoops anyone goes through to get into WestPoint are HUGE. Know what? When accepted YOUR ARE IN THE MILITARY! You can't just drop out, you have to get discharged.

If any democrat had said this, the conservatives would have lit him on fire.
wrichcirw
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11/10/2015 1:55:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 12:52:01 AM, TBR wrote:
Are you calling West Point intellectually dishonest? Because all of those quotes came from West Point brochures.

Here is a personal point of reference. My father got through med school on the AF. He served for 11 years obtaining the rank of Lieutenant Colonel (nice rank). He would NEVER call his commission a "scholarship". The day the deal was signed with the AF, he was IN the AF and they were paying to get a doctor out the other end.

The hoops anyone goes through to get into WestPoint are HUGE. Know what? When accepted YOUR ARE IN THE MILITARY! You can't just drop out, you have to get discharged.

If any democrat had said this, the conservatives would have lit him on fire.

So you are indeed saying that West Point is being intellectually dishonest in its advertising brochures, yes? You're essentially saying that West Point has been fooling Americans for decades by telling them that West Point offers "full scholarships" to all potential applicants, yes?

IMHO such accusations are absurd. It's a scholarship...most people wouldn't call it that because they don't associate the military with any sort of academic rigor. It's a prejudice that more than likely originated from Vietnam...most Vietnam vets were spit on and don't even want to be associated with the military, let alone make such inflammatory remarks that the military actually taught them something useful.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
TBR
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11/10/2015 2:02:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
So you are indeed saying that West Point is being intellectually dishonest in its advertising brochures, yes? You're essentially saying that West Point has been fooling Americans for decades by telling them that West Point offers "full scholarships" to all potential applicants, yes?
I am saying that when you ask a West Point student, I doubt he would call it this.


IMHO such accusations are absurd. It's a scholarship...most people wouldn't call it that because they don't associate the military with any sort of academic rigor. It's a prejudice that more than likely originated from Vietnam...most Vietnam vets were spit on and don't even want to be associated with the military, let alone make such inflammatory remarks that the military actually taught them something useful.

Well, what a strawman. I gave you my example of my own father. He would not say "scholarship", and I will say again, this is simply intellectually dishonest. Put in the same place, a democrat would be roasted. I could imagine charges of stolen valor.

Agree or don't - I don't care. The complaint is valid, and will be looked at as such by many people who read the story. He was trying to impress by associating himself with top flight military cred, and it fell flat. That is on HIM!
wrichcirw
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11/10/2015 2:03:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 2:02:30 AM, TBR wrote:
So you are indeed saying that West Point is being intellectually dishonest in its advertising brochures, yes? You're essentially saying that West Point has been fooling Americans for decades by telling them that West Point offers "full scholarships" to all potential applicants, yes?
I am saying that when you ask a West Point student, I doubt he would call it this.

Just answer the question. Do you consider West Point to be intellectually dishonest when West Point says they offer all potential applicants "full scholarships"?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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11/10/2015 2:04:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 2:02:30 AM, TBR wrote:
That is on HIM!

I would strongly disagree and say that Politico owes him a public apology for engaging in slander.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
TBR
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11/10/2015 2:05:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 2:03:42 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/10/2015 2:02:30 AM, TBR wrote:
So you are indeed saying that West Point is being intellectually dishonest in its advertising brochures, yes? You're essentially saying that West Point has been fooling Americans for decades by telling them that West Point offers "full scholarships" to all potential applicants, yes?
I am saying that when you ask a West Point student, I doubt he would call it this.

Just answer the question. Do you consider West Point to be intellectually dishonest when West Point says they offer all potential applicants "full scholarships"?

I would never. I am calling YOU intellectually dishonest.
TBR
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11/10/2015 2:06:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 2:04:35 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/10/2015 2:02:30 AM, TBR wrote:
That is on HIM!

I would strongly disagree and say that Politico owes him a public apology for engaging in slander.

Unless he had all the request done (congressman for referral etc. ) he was offered NOTHING.
wrichcirw
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11/10/2015 2:08:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 2:05:43 AM, TBR wrote:
At 11/10/2015 2:03:42 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 11/10/2015 2:02:30 AM, TBR wrote:
So you are indeed saying that West Point is being intellectually dishonest in its advertising brochures, yes? You're essentially saying that West Point has been fooling Americans for decades by telling them that West Point offers "full scholarships" to all potential applicants, yes?
I am saying that when you ask a West Point student, I doubt he would call it this.

Just answer the question. Do you consider West Point to be intellectually dishonest when West Point says they offer all potential applicants "full scholarships"?

I would never. I am calling YOU intellectually dishonest.

I'm directly quoting West Point. You're accusing West Point of intellectual dishonesty.

You want to shoot the messenger? You're bat-sh!t crazy for doing so.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?