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YYW on Mizzou, and College Protests Generally

YYW
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11/12/2015 6:08:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
FACTS:

Stupid College Kids are Stupid College Kids...

The most candid factual accounts suggest that the whole controversy began with some sophomoric, racist remarks and pranks. Those sophomoric remarks and pranks were directed at Peyton Head, who is the student body president. He is also black. Thereafter, some members of a black student association were allegedly called "niggers" and a swastika was drawn with human feces in a dorm bathroom.

Mizzou didn't Care, and that bothered people... because the people who were allegedly victimized by college kid stupidity were black

Mizzou more or less didn't care, which was a reasonable response. You had some people say some nasty things, and someone with a fondness for poop graffiti vandalized a bathroom. No one was injured. No one was killed. No one was even directly accosted. Just some words, and petty vandalism. These activities are certainly stupid, inexcusable, and unbecoming of anyone -much less college students- but a few isolated incidents were contained, and no report says that anything worse than what I said happened at this point.

Black student group holds the university president hostage in his own car, because they couldn't get a meeting with him to talk about how pissed they are that he could care less about stupid college kids being stupid college kids....

However, members of a black student group were unsatisfied with the university's response -or lack thereof. To redress their grievances, they surrounded Tim Wolfe's car and formed a human blockade around it. The car was not operated by Wolfe at the time, and the driver revved the engine but a black graduate student named Jonathan Butler located himself in the vehicle's way and would not move. All of this took place on public property.

Stupid black graduate student member of stupid student group makes himself a martyr and get's the football team to hold the university hostage...

Butler was struck, but not injured, by the vehicle as Wolfe tried to get by. However, the black student group interpreted Butler's being struck as an act of escalation. So, in response they began a crusade against Wolfe and the administration. No one disputes that Wolfe could not get out of the protesters, because they were blockading his car. When they were asked to move, they did not. When they were put on notice of the driver's intent to overcome them, the protesters and Jonathan Butler placed themselves in harm's way.

University president resigns to save Mizzou a million dollars, at least... black college students who originially only wanted to b!tch to him, who then got the chance, who then wanted his resignation, and then got that, still unsatisfied with their specious "activism"

Wolfe later met with the group, and acknowledged that racism is bad and acknowledged the black student group. Recall that their protest's purpose was to secure just such a meeting, and they got it. The black student group, however, was dissatisfied with Wolfe's response. Butler, a member of that group, initiated a "hunger strike" with the intent of securing Wolfe's resignation. The group also sought mandatory diversity training for all students and faculty, more black people on the faculty, and more money to fund programs to help black people deal with uniquely black emotional problems which they claim result from "social injustice." Butler's demands, however, are simpler: he wants Wolfe to resign.

Various others joined in. Student athletes. Students at the university. Students at other universities. Various other social activists, and the like. In response to this, certain individuals made menacing threats to some of the "activists" which prompted various security measures being taken. The matter has escalated considerably.

Wolfe resigned as president, and various others have as well. The turning point with regard to Wolfe's resignation was where the football team refused to play if Wolfe did not resign, which would have costed the university at least one million dollars in fines. So, Wolfe is out.

Analysis:

There have been some pretty remarkably powerful college protests. What happened at MIT in the 1960s, and what happened at Kent State in response to Vietnam are probably the first two that come to mind. This is no Kent State. This is no incident like transpired at MIT.

This entire incident is stupid. Everything about it. There are some who want to make this about racism in Missouri. There are others who want to justify the student groups actions because they were "desperate" or some other fantasy. There remain others still who believe that this is a necessary part of addressing the social issues with regard to racism that fester, and that what the black student group and wannabe martyr Butler did was "justifiable."

As is consistently the case with black college student activists, or young black activists, whether it's #blacklivesmatter, or whatever, they forget the importance of aligning means with the moral force of your ends. It doesn't matter how righteous your ends are, where your means are tit for tat escalation between your faction and whatever establishment you're fighting against.

This incident, controversy and mess in sum could have been avoided if the black student group had have just waited for a meeting, and worked with administration to win them to their way of thinking.

They need someone who can and is willing to work within the establishment, and command its respect. They (by "they" I mean "the black student group") do not need to disrupt the university's functioning, because doing that changes their status from one of a "concerned student organization" to one of a quasi-rebel force which will take the university or its parts hostage whenever they don't get their way.

Make no mistake, Wolfe's handling of this was pathetic. He is a bad, and probably incompetent leader. But he is not accountable for the cantankerous student group's actions. As the cards fall, it is the student group's actions which have escalated this at every turn. Wolfe did nothing, other than fail to appease a group whose actions suggest the impossibility of their being appeased. Should anyone then wonder why he ignored their b!tching?

Ultimately, the damage that this kind of activism does to social justice causes is so great, so vast, and so profound that it would seem like it would be universally apparent if it existed. But the reality is that the damage this kind of activism (and the #blacklivesmatter activism I've spoken about before) does is that it reinforces the kind of insidious, unspoken prejudices that many white, asian, and latino people have with regard to black people precisely because they see black students doing this kind of sh!t.

We can talk about how that's not fair, right, or just. It doesn't matter. We can discuss how institutional racism is a problem and blah, blah, blah... it means nothing. We can pontificate on the extent of social injustice regarding black Americans. And each and every time something like Mizzou happens, those concerns will fall on increasingly deaf ears.

How you hold yourself out to the world matters, and this is why the kind of "activism" at Mizzou will never change anything for the better. It will do nothing other than exacerbate the problems it seeks to redress. And how very sad that is... hopefully some day black activists will learn, but I doubt it. They seem to have forgotten what King taught so many years ago... or maybe they never knew it, because of SNCC and Malcolm X.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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11/12/2015 6:17:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
To preempt some responses:

1. If you think this is too harsh or overly critical, then you're a misguided fool whose values are misplaced, understanding of human nature is inept, and comprehension of how to affect change is nonexistent.

2. If you are of the view that I shouldn't be speaking about this with such a harsh judgmental tone, realize that I found the most egregiously harsh sources from reliable news outlets to put together my account of the facts: HuffPost, Atlantic, CNN, and various others. If new facts come out, I may change my analysis, but I doubt that anything more will come out which will change my mind.

3. If it is your view that I am too "certain" of my condemnation of the black student group, then you're way of interpreting the world should reasonably foreclose any reasonable discussion of any current event or cultural development in totality. We are people, and noting I said is unreasonable.

4. If you think this makes me a racist, then you don't know the meaning of the word. I hate seeing this kind of garbage. It's pathetic, and it's offensive to see people engaged in activities that will sabotage an otherwise worthwhile cause. It's disgraceful, and I can only hope that some of you will take to heart the fact that no one who ever brought meaningful change did it like this.
Tsar of DDO
Insignifica
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11/12/2015 7:09:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
No, I completely agree with your analysis. Modern social justice activists are absolutely pathetic, and more importantly, they're hugely counter-productive to their own cause. I'm quite socially liberal, and even I feel like punching a hole through my screen when I see self-entitled idiots pull dumb sh!t like this. I can't imagine how someone who is already racist would react. Given racists' predisposition towards generalizing the actions of a small minority to an entire population, it's not far-fetched at all that racist sentiments as a whole will be exacerbated.
Khaos_Mage
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11/12/2015 12:12:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 6:08:33 AM, YYW wrote:
Respond to the allegation that this was justified, just as any other isolated incident involving police is justified in similar reactionary protest and/or aggression, due to decades of racial intolerance at said college?

If you support the protests in Ferguson, which ignited due to "being sick and tired" more than the incident itself, how do you reconcile your differing opinions regarding similar reactions of people "directly" affected?
My work here is, finally, done.
YYW
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11/12/2015 1:12:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 12:12:05 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/12/2015 6:08:33 AM, YYW wrote:
Respond to the allegation that this was justified, just as any other isolated incident involving police is justified in similar reactionary protest and/or aggression, due to decades of racial intolerance at said college?

This isn't a police brutality matter.

If you support the protests in Ferguson, which ignited due to "being sick and tired" more than the incident itself, how do you reconcile your differing opinions regarding similar reactions of people "directly" affected?

Ferguson came after a kid was shot to death by white cops. Mizzou is the result of some stupid kids being stupid kids. Police brutality and use of excessive force when it results in an unnecessary and racially prompted death is one thing, and it's a serious matter. This came as a result of some sophomoric pranks.

In Ferguson, protests and riots are an incentive for police not to shoot first and think later. It's not "ideal" and it makes the black community as a whole look bad. Unlike Ferguson, the only message this sends is that black student groups are erratic, irrational, aggressive, petty, and vindictive.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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11/12/2015 1:19:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 7:09:56 AM, Insignifica wrote:
No, I completely agree with your analysis. Modern social justice activists are absolutely pathetic, and more importantly, they're hugely counter-productive to their own cause. I'm quite socially liberal, and even I feel like punching a hole through my screen when I see self-entitled idiots pull dumb sh!t like this.

It's disgraceful.

I can't imagine how someone who is already racist would react.

Oh I can tell you how they will react...

Look at those stupid niggers, being stupid niggers. They can't even go to college without acting out and causing trouble for everyone else. Everything they do fvcks it up for the rest of us. This is why there's no reason to help them get into college. There is no reason for affirmative action. No reason for any assistance, because they are who they are...

^And that is HORRIBLE, but this is what people think when they see black student activism like what's going on at Mizzou.

I saw another video recently where a bunch of black people stood in the middle of a highway, to disrupt traffic as an act of "protest." Same principal applies.

They disgrace the cause they claim to represent.

Given racists' predisposition towards generalizing the actions of a small minority to an entire population, it's not far-fetched at all that racist sentiments as a whole will be exacerbated.

It's worse than that. They create more racists every time this kind of garbage happens.
Tsar of DDO
Khaos_Mage
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11/12/2015 2:18:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 1:12:56 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/12/2015 12:12:05 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/12/2015 6:08:33 AM, YYW wrote:
Respond to the allegation that this was justified, just as any other isolated incident involving police is justified in similar reactionary protest and/or aggression, due to decades of racial intolerance at said college?

This isn't a police brutality matter.
I never said it was. The fact is, national outrage about racial issues stemmed from a single incident in both cases. Why is one incident's subsequent protests/stupidity/violence acceptable while not the other, when the core issue in both is being fed up with racial persecution?

If you support the protests in Ferguson, which ignited due to "being sick and tired" more than the incident itself, how do you reconcile your differing opinions regarding similar reactions of people "directly" affected?

Ferguson came after a kid was shot to death by white cops. Mizzou is the result of some stupid kids being stupid kids. Police brutality and use of excessive force when it results in an unnecessary and racially prompted death is one thing, and it's a serious matter. This came as a result of some sophomoric pranks.
And, I ask again, what is the difference in principle? Blacks are killed everyday by others, and the police shoot about three people every day. I have a hard time believing police brutality is exclusive to blacks, which makes the issue, and what people said during the issue (before the DOJ's inability to make a case) was that they are sick of being targeted. Why is the response from the community to be different because the targeting is by stupid college kids vs. police? Isn't enough enough?

In Ferguson, protests and riots are an incentive for police not to shoot first and think later. It's not "ideal" and it makes the black community as a whole look bad. Unlike Ferguson, the only message this sends is that black student groups are erratic, irrational, aggressive, petty, and vindictive.

I see the message as the same: blacks are sick of whites being racist.
My work here is, finally, done.
popculturepooka
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11/12/2015 4:10:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sorry, nope. Just responding to the part about how it makes blacks look bad for right now: people love their respectability politics, especially when it's not them being told to be respectable in the face of oppression. *Problem is , it doesn't work, and they shouldn't have to do it in the first place.

I know people love to compare BLM to the civil rights movements back when the activists were "respectable" and people could "take them seriously", but the truth is that is just historical amnesia. As anyone who has actually studied that period of time knows civil rights activists were ROUTINELY accused of inciting violence (violence on whose part? why the racists of course!) even in peaceful protests. They were ROUTINELY accused of making the racial divide wider with their actions. They were ROUITNELY accused of alienating other people. ROUTINELY accused of setting their race back, and constantly implored "well, maybe if you guys would wait a little bit longer and stay peaceful and docile (read: don't speak up about issues that make us uncomfortable), we'll get around to your problems...maybe.' That's the mentatlity that King was addressing in the Letter from Birmingham jail.

"I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

In your statement you assert that our actions, even though peaceful, must be condemned because they precipitate violence. But is this a logical assertion? Isn't this like condemning a robbed man because his possession of money precipitated the evil act of robbery? Isn't this like condemning Socrates because his unswerving commitment to truth and his philosophical inquiries precipitated the act by the misguided populace in which they made him drink hemlock? Isn't this like condemning Jesus because his unique God consciousness and never ceasing devotion to God's will precipitated the evil act of crucifixion? We must come to see that, as the federal courts have consistently affirmed, it is wrong to urge an individual to cease his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest may precipitate violence. Society must protect the robbed and punish the robber. I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth concerning time in relation to the struggle for freedom. I have just received a letter from a white brother in Texas. He writes: "All Christians know that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but it is possible that you are in too great a religious hurry. It has taken Christianity almost two thousand years to accomplish what it has. The teachings of Christ take time to come to earth." Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely irrational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co workers with God, and without this hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation. We must use time creatively, in the knowledge that the time is always ripe to do right. Now is the time to make real the promise of democracy and transform our pending national elegy into a creative psalm of brotherhood. Now is the time to lift our national policy from the quicksand of racial injustice to the solid rock of human dignity."

https://www.africa.upenn.edu...

Fact is, MLK Jr was killed anyway and he was the epitomy of a "respectable negro". Fact is, during the time he was alive, he was one of the most hated people in America (well, you know not black America, but...).

*https://en.wikipedia.org...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
TBR
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11/12/2015 4:19:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Well, this pisses me off more than much else.

Wolfe resigned as president, and various others have as well. The turning point with regard to Wolfe's resignation was where the football team refused to play if Wolfe did not resign, which would have costed the university at least one million dollars in fines. So, Wolfe is out.

The operation of the school was held hostage to a sport? Enough with sports already.

On the whole, the problem I see is with perception or spin. It takes a great deal of work for people who have to advocate for issues to manage the spin of any situation. Yea, these are students and bound to make less than thoughtful decisions. Now a wider split must be managed.

I have no issue with them getting very upset about the initial spark, or the reaction. Address the problem head-on. The thing is, you are getting more "troops" for the battle at the cost of the hearts and minds of the fence sitters. This resonated with ones who are already on their side, not the audience they think they are targeting.
ben2974
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11/12/2015 5:47:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 4:10:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Sorry, nope. Just responding to the part about how it makes blacks look bad for right now: people love their respectability politics, especially when it's not them being told to be respectable in the face of oppression. *Problem is , it doesn't work, and they shouldn't have to do it in the first place.

I know people love to compare BLM to the civil rights movements back when the activists were "respectable" and people could "take them seriously", but the truth is that is just historical amnesia. As anyone who has actually studied that period of time knows civil rights activists were ROUTINELY accused of inciting violence (violence on whose part? why the racists of course!) even in peaceful protests. They were ROUTINELY accused of making the racial divide wider with their actions. They were ROUITNELY accused of alienating other people. ROUTINELY accused of setting their race back, and constantly implored "well, maybe if you guys would wait a little bit longer and stay peaceful and docile (read: don't speak up about issues that make us uncomfortable), we'll get around to your problems...maybe.' That's the mentatlity that King was addressing in the Letter from Birmingham jail.

"I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

In your statement you assert that our actions, even though peaceful, must be condemned because they precipitate violence. But is this a logical assertion? Isn't this like condemning a robbed man because his possession of money precipitated the evil act of robbery? Isn't this like condemning Socrates because his unswerving commitment to truth and his philosophical inquiries precipitated the act by the misguided populace in which they made him drink hemlock? Isn't this like condemning Jesus because his unique God consciousness and never ceasing devotion to God's will precipitated the evil act of crucifixion? We must come to see that, as the federal courts have consistently affirmed, it is wrong to urge an individual to cease his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest may precipitate violence. Society must protect the robbed and punish the robber. I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth concerning time in relation to the struggle for freedom. I have just received a letter from a white brother in Texas. He writes: "All Christians know that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but it is possible that you are in too great a religious hurry. It has taken Christianity almost two thousand years to accomplish what it has. The teachings of Christ take time to come to earth." Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely irrational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co workers with God, and without this hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation. We must use time creatively, in the knowledge that the time is always ripe to do right. Now is the time to make real the promise of democracy and transform our pending national elegy into a creative psalm of brotherhood. Now is the time to lift our national policy from the quicksand of racial injustice to the solid rock of human dignity."

https://www.africa.upenn.edu...

Fact is, MLK Jr was killed anyway and he was the epitomy of a "respectable negro". Fact is, during the time he was alive, he was one of the most hated people in America (well, you know not black America, but...).


*https://en.wikipedia.org...

The issues black people are arguing today aren't as transparent as the flagrant institutional racism that blacks were fighting for in the 1960s. They'll have a much harder job convincing the "fence-sitters," as TBR described, to convince them of their cause when their message is unclear and their actions disputable.
popculturepooka
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11/12/2015 7:12:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 5:47:04 PM, ben2974 wrote:

The issues black people are arguing today aren't as transparent as the flagrant institutional racism that blacks were fighting for in the 1960s. They'll have a much harder job convincing the "fence-sitters," as TBR described, to convince them of their cause when their message is unclear and their actions disputable.

The issues back then are only transparent and obviously flagrant to huge swathes of the population *now* because hindsight is 20/20. They weren't so obvious, transparent and flagrant to many back then:

http://images.dailykos.com...
http://images.dailykos.com...

And the issues today seem to me to be obviously bad. Not as bad as back in the 60's but that's not saying much. Really not sure how people don't see how the issues aren't bad.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
ben2974
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11/12/2015 7:54:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 7:12:57 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/12/2015 5:47:04 PM, ben2974 wrote:

The issues black people are arguing today aren't as transparent as the flagrant institutional racism that blacks were fighting for in the 1960s. They'll have a much harder job convincing the "fence-sitters," as TBR described, to convince them of their cause when their message is unclear and their actions disputable.

The issues back then are only transparent and obviously flagrant to huge swathes of the population *now* because hindsight is 20/20. They weren't so obvious, transparent and flagrant to many back then:

http://images.dailykos.com...
http://images.dailykos.com...

And the issues today seem to me to be obviously bad. Not as bad as back in the 60's but that's not saying much. Really not sure how people don't see how the issues aren't bad.

What exactly are the issues blacks are facing today? What are they trying to achieve that in 30 years will be so obvious to the general public? It certainly isn't going to be about the right to fricken vote. Or to ride where they please. Or to use the same bathrooms. Or to be safe from lynchings when walking the streets. I sincerely am confused by the black progressive agenda: I have no idea what they're fighting for.

Listen to this guy: https://www.youtube.com... (mind you this is from the 80s or so)
This guy deserves much more public attention than he's had in his life. This guy was sailing with Milton Friedman back in the day. I consider myself a moderate/center-left individual, but he's got many good points. I suggest watching his interviews. I haven't read any of his books but I probably will in the future.
YYW
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11/12/2015 8:30:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The attempted analogy between #blm and the civil rights movement is incredibly weak, for reasons I might elaborate more on when I'm not on my phone. The civil rights movement did include groups lead by radicals (mostly after MLK's death) which did untold damage to the work accomplished by the brilliant men and women who came before them... Who conducted themselves like adults, who won their cause in courts and in the hearts and minds of Americans throughout the country. SNCC and similar groups got violent towards the end. King was never violent, nor were his contemporaries. It's a historical embarrassment to compare what is going on in Missouri to what they accomplished. It is a fabrication to suggest analogical means.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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11/12/2015 8:36:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
And to the entirely intentional but not explicit suggestion that I am a "white moderate" ...wake up and smell the coffee. If I was a white moderate, I would not be lamenting the abject stupidity of Jonathan Butler, or the absurd little student group to which he belongs.

I want a society where all students can attend college without being subjected to hate signs, threats and the like. What this band of fools is doing will only make their problems worse. The reason is because despite the fact that their justifications for doing so are repugnant, by any reasonable standard, white racist kids at Mizzou will respond to the tit for tat eacalation the black student group has been driving, and things will continue to get worse.

It is all pathetic.
Tsar of DDO
Greyparrot
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11/12/2015 10:11:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 8:36:03 PM, YYW wrote:
And to the entirely intentional but not explicit suggestion that I am a "white moderate" ...wake up and smell the coffee. If I was a white moderate, I would not be lamenting the abject stupidity of Jonathan Butler, or the absurd little student group to which he belongs.

I want a society where all students can attend college without being subjected to hate signs, threats and the like. What this band of fools is doing will only make their problems worse. The reason is because despite the fact that their justifications for doing so are repugnant, by any reasonable standard, white racist kids at Mizzou will respond to the tit for tat eacalation the black student group has been driving, and things will continue to get worse.

It is all pathetic.

When all you know is the silver spoon, you have no fear of the loss of it. At that point, coexistence is impossible, and a greek tragedy must ensue.
popculturepooka
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11/13/2015 12:11:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 8:30:22 PM, YYW wrote:
The attempted analogy between #blm and the civil rights movement is incredibly weak, for reasons I might elaborate more on when I'm not on my phone. The civil rights movement did include groups lead by radicals (mostly after MLK's death) which did untold damage to the work accomplished by the brilliant men and women who came before them... Who conducted themselves like adults, who won their cause in courts and in the hearts and minds of Americans throughout the country. SNCC and similar groups got violent towards the end. King was never violent, nor were his contemporaries. It's a historical embarrassment to compare what is going on in Missouri to what they accomplished. It is a fabrication to suggest analogical means.

MLK was considered a radical lol

He was never violent but one of the most common charges against him was he was inciting violence. And when there riots he was blamed anyway despite the fact that he repudiated them.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
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11/13/2015 12:15:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 8:36:03 PM, YYW wrote:
And to the entirely intentional but not explicit suggestion that I am a "white moderate" ...wake up and smell the coffee. If I was a white moderate, I would not be lamenting the abject stupidity of Jonathan Butler, or the absurd little student group to which he belongs.

I want a society where all students can attend college without being subjected to hate signs, threats and the like. What this band of fools is doing will only make their problems worse. The reason is because despite the fact that their justifications for doing so are repugnant, by any reasonable standard, white racist kids at Mizzou will respond to the tit for tat eacalation the black student group has been driving, and things will continue to get worse.

It is all pathetic.

I'm confused as to how it's their fault for "escalating" this when black students have been conplaining about these sort of things for years at Mizzou, they did try to take it the administration first (they got ignored), and then finally it came to a head.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
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11/13/2015 12:23:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 7:54:47 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 11/12/2015 7:12:57 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/12/2015 5:47:04 PM, ben2974 wrote:

The issues black people are arguing today aren't as transparent as the flagrant institutional racism that blacks were fighting for in the 1960s. They'll have a much harder job convincing the "fence-sitters," as TBR described, to convince them of their cause when their message is unclear and their actions disputable.

The issues back then are only transparent and obviously flagrant to huge swathes of the population *now* because hindsight is 20/20. They weren't so obvious, transparent and flagrant to many back then:

http://images.dailykos.com...
http://images.dailykos.com...

And the issues today seem to me to be obviously bad. Not as bad as back in the 60's but that's not saying much. Really not sure how people don't see how the issues aren't bad.

What exactly are the issues blacks are facing today? What are they trying to achieve that in 30 years will be so obvious to the general public? It certainly isn't going to be about the right to fricken vote. Or to ride where they please. Or to use the same bathrooms. Or to be safe from lynchings when walking the streets. I sincerely am confused by the black progressive agenda: I have no idea what they're fighting for.

Let's see: overpolicing, the school to prison pipeline, the war on drugs, employment discrimination, housing discrimination, unfair sentencing, etc.

Listen to this guy: https://www.youtube.com... (mind you this is from the 80s or so)
This guy deserves much more public attention than he's had in his life. This guy was sailing with Milton Friedman back in the day. I consider myself a moderate/center-left individual, but he's got many good points. I suggest watching his interviews. I haven't read any of his books but I probably will in the future.

i'm well aware of Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas, et al.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
ben2974
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11/13/2015 12:49:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/13/2015 12:23:52 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/12/2015 7:54:47 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 11/12/2015 7:12:57 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/12/2015 5:47:04 PM, ben2974 wrote:

The issues black people are arguing today aren't as transparent as the flagrant institutional racism that blacks were fighting for in the 1960s. They'll have a much harder job convincing the "fence-sitters," as TBR described, to convince them of their cause when their message is unclear and their actions disputable.

The issues back then are only transparent and obviously flagrant to huge swathes of the population *now* because hindsight is 20/20. They weren't so obvious, transparent and flagrant to many back then:

http://images.dailykos.com...
http://images.dailykos.com...

And the issues today seem to me to be obviously bad. Not as bad as back in the 60's but that's not saying much. Really not sure how people don't see how the issues aren't bad.

What exactly are the issues blacks are facing today? What are they trying to achieve that in 30 years will be so obvious to the general public? It certainly isn't going to be about the right to fricken vote. Or to ride where they please. Or to use the same bathrooms. Or to be safe from lynchings when walking the streets. I sincerely am confused by the black progressive agenda: I have no idea what they're fighting for.

Let's see: overpolicing, the school to prison pipeline, the war on drugs, employment discrimination, housing discrimination, unfair sentencing, etc.

A lot of those are arguable. While I do believe there is police brutality in the police force, I also believe in following the law. Every big case that we've seen on TV so far has the "victim" involved in criminal activity, either in the past or present. And all the bullshi7 video clips you see on social media cannot be taken seriously, where the videos begin mid-arrest.

I don't know what the school to prison pipeline is

I do not see how the war on drugs is strictly a black problem; regardless, the war on drugs as a concept should end - it has done nothing good, and is a big cause of the high rate of incarceration. What I can submit is that blacks might be given tougher sentences, which is certainly unjust. But the point is that the current drug sentencing policies are ridiculous.

Employment discrimination: needs sources. Same with housing.

Unfair sentencing: goes hand-in-hand with the war on drugs. I'll agree here.

Anyway, there is absolutely no reason for the kids to react the way they did for such a stupid thing.
https://www.thefire.org...
https://www.thefire.org...

Read the two links above. If you can't read 'em both, at least read the letter (second link)


Listen to this guy: https://www.youtube.com... (mind you this is from the 80s or so)
This guy deserves much more public attention than he's had in his life. This guy was sailing with Milton Friedman back in the day. I consider myself a moderate/center-left individual, but he's got many good points. I suggest watching his interviews. I haven't read any of his books but I probably will in the future.

i'm well aware of Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas, et al.
Khaos_Mage
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11/13/2015 3:05:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/13/2015 12:15:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

I'm confused as to how it's their fault for "escalating" this when black students have been conplaining about these sort of things for years at Mizzou, they did try to take it the administration first (they got ignored), and then finally it came to a head.

Hence my question that went unanswered.....
Why is outrage justified only if the immediate catalyst is large enough in significance? It seems like special pleading to me - either a group (or an individual) can blow up after "having enough" or they can't.

It looks like we agree, even if we don't agree LOL
My work here is, finally, done.
YYW
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11/13/2015 3:43:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/13/2015 3:05:00 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/13/2015 12:15:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

I'm confused as to how it's their fault for "escalating" this when black students have been conplaining about these sort of things for years at Mizzou, they did try to take it the administration first (they got ignored), and then finally it came to a head.

Hence my question that went unanswered.....
Why is outrage justified only if the immediate catalyst is large enough in significance? It seems like special pleading to me - either a group (or an individual) can blow up after "having enough" or they can't.

It looks like we agree, even if we don't agree LOL

Your question didn't go unanswered. I answered it, but perhaps I can say a few more words.

The issue is not whether the "inciting event" was sufficient to justify what's going on. I didn't say that the facts I outlined were the ONLY things in play. I said that THEY ARE WHAT PRECEDED the madness that followed. So, you take a look at the sequence of events, and form your own conclusions.

The fact that a bunch of students have been complaining about things does not mean that they are entitled to do what they did. There is a sense of proportionality in play, which is really what is at issue. But, that analysis and argument entirely misses the point of what I was saying.

The issue, moreover, is NOT even whether the black student group is justified in doing what they're doing. Justification isn't in play. In fact, you were the first person to even use the word "justified."

My point was that what the black student group and the wannabe martyr Jonathan Butler is doing is *stupid.* Whether their grievances are legitimate (read: justified) or not is totally irrelevant to the point I was making. The point I was making was whether their means (read: what they are doing) are conducive to achieving the ends they want (read: the state of affairs they want to bring about). If you would occasion yourself to re-read what I wrote, perhaps this point would not be lost upon you, or, apparently, PCP.

With regard to PCP, his analogies to between MLK and #BLM are historically embarrassing. The fact that some (not all, or even most) people react or reacted to things in similar ways, even if that is true (and I do not concede that it is) does not make people the same. Some people accused Edward Snowden of being a terrorist. Other people said that Osama Bin Laden was a terrorist. They are obviously not similar people, nor did they do similar things, and there is no rational comparison between them. The kind of logic used to make the comparisons is incredibly weak. So weak, in fact, that it would require me to vacate my sense of reality to even entertain them.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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11/13/2015 3:51:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/13/2015 12:15:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/12/2015 8:36:03 PM, YYW wrote:
And to the entirely intentional but not explicit suggestion that I am a "white moderate" ...wake up and smell the coffee. If I was a white moderate, I would not be lamenting the abject stupidity of Jonathan Butler, or the absurd little student group to which he belongs.

I want a society where all students can attend college without being subjected to hate signs, threats and the like. What this band of fools is doing will only make their problems worse. The reason is because despite the fact that their justifications for doing so are repugnant, by any reasonable standard, white racist kids at Mizzou will respond to the tit for tat eacalation the black student group has been driving, and things will continue to get worse.

It is all pathetic.

I'm confused as to how it's their fault for "escalating" this when black students have been conplaining about these sort of things for years at Mizzou, they did try to take it the administration first (they got ignored), and then finally it came to a head.

Responding to three isolated incidents with mass protests, taking the university president hostage, and initiating forces that induced his resignation is an obviously disproportionate and greater show of force than isolated incidents of stupid college kids being stupid college kids.

And I know you see the difference. Let's not pretend otherwise.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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11/13/2015 3:57:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 4:10:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Sorry, nope. Just responding to the part about how it makes blacks look bad for right now: people love their respectability politics, especially when it's not them being told to be respectable in the face of oppression. *Problem is , it doesn't work, and they shouldn't have to do it in the first place.

The fact that there may be legitimate grievances which BLM attempts to redress has no bearing, at all, on how the movement is perceived. Perception is what defines the permissible scope of societal acceptance. Without a favorable perception, society as a whole will not change. BLM is not only courting a negative perception, but it is actively harming its cause by engaging in the sort of things that it's doing. The same applies to what is going on at Mizzou.

There is no cause so noble that you can forsake the rules of perception in its pursuit, and it is stupid and naive to think otherwise. BLM and the brigade of children at Mizzou have done precisely that, and they have not only disregarded that cardinal rule. They have repudiated it.

And here, in this instance, all you're doing is precisely what I said would be meaningless: quibbling with me over whether they're justified, or they're in the right, or whatever. If your goal is to change society, you do it with a more deliberate, less blunt, more exacting hand and with a more mature method. If you want people to mock you or be indifferent to you (unless your target audience is college kids looking for some pathetic social justice project to align with), then you do exactly what the student group at Mizzou is doing.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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11/13/2015 4:04:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 12:12:05 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
If you support the protests in Ferguson, which ignited due to "being sick and tired" more than the incident itself, how do you reconcile your differing opinions regarding similar reactions of people "directly" affected?

There was utility in the Ferguson protests, because they were literally riots in the streets in response to a trigger happy and probably racist cop. The utility is that it makes every cop think twice now before killing some black person. What do all cops in the United States have to think about?

"If I shoot this person, will there be riots in the streets?"

Cops' interest is in order and public safety. Where order and public safety are overwhelmingly disrupted in response to a taken human life, people think twice about taking lives who want to maintain order. So, that was about what actions people take. Not omissions. Only actions.

In contrast, this garbage at Mizzou is about what the school failed to do; what they omitted. Not actions. And not only was it not about actions, but this was just about nasty words and vandalism. No lives were lost. No lives were even threatened. No cops killing black kids. No black kids dying. Just someone calling someone else a nigger, and poop graffiti.

So, when this is portrayed... the sequence of events is played out, what do the American people think?

I'll tell you what they think, and then what they do:

"Are you fvcking kidding me? Those stupid, entitled kids want to take the university hostage and cost a man his livelihood because of something someone drew with their own sh!t in a bathroom, and some pejoratives? That's it? This is idiotic, and, frankly, blacks are too sensitive these days. If they're going to riot on college campuses and stage hunger strikes over this petty sh!t, then they've got too much time on their hands."

*goes back to living their own lives, and gives precisely zero fvcks what happens further*

And this is why institutional racism continues...
Tsar of DDO
Skepsikyma
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11/13/2015 4:50:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 4:10:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Sorry, nope. Just responding to the part about how it makes blacks look bad for right now: people love their respectability politics, especially when it's not them being told to be respectable in the face of oppression. *Problem is , it doesn't work, and they shouldn't have to do it in the first place.

There's a difference between respectability politics, and intelligent politics. Movements like this need to understand cause and effect, and the effect here was not good. What was accomplished? They got an inept president fired. What was sacrificed to do this? Credibility on a massive scale, especially among those within the establishment who were capable of making changes. BLM made similar mistakes. If they had gone for jury reforms and focused on the corruption in law enforcement, they could have had a big tent. I know from experience that lower middle class white people are incensed by cronyism in policing. Had criticism been focused there, a coalition very well could have been built. But instead the result was strident rhetoric, stupidity like 'privilege checking', and an attitude which is insular at best.

There is a middle ground between 'the meek shall inherit the earth' respectability politics and 'let the world burn' hostility. If black movements want to be in any way efficacious, they need to find it. If they narrow the focus, build coalitions with the like-minded, and become willing to put aside differences, then so much more could be accomplished. Results will follow if they get mad and outraged, but control and focus that energy towards a concrete goal.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
thett3
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11/13/2015 5:04:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The university chancellor that they made resign was the president of my university when I was a freshman. A kinder, more able, or passionate man you couldn't hope to find. And they kicked him out for literally no reason. Nice going, idiots.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
popculturepooka
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11/13/2015 5:49:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/13/2015 3:51:08 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/13/2015 12:15:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/12/2015 8:36:03 PM, YYW wrote:
And to the entirely intentional but not explicit suggestion that I am a "white moderate" ...wake up and smell the coffee. If I was a white moderate, I would not be lamenting the abject stupidity of Jonathan Butler, or the absurd little student group to which he belongs.

I want a society where all students can attend college without being subjected to hate signs, threats and the like. What this band of fools is doing will only make their problems worse. The reason is because despite the fact that their justifications for doing so are repugnant, by any reasonable standard, white racist kids at Mizzou will respond to the tit for tat eacalation the black student group has been driving, and things will continue to get worse.

It is all pathetic.

I'm confused as to how it's their fault for "escalating" this when black students have been conplaining about these sort of things for years at Mizzou, they did try to take it the administration first (they got ignored), and then finally it came to a head.

Responding to three isolated incidents with mass protests, taking the university president hostage, and initiating forces that induced his resignation is an obviously disproportionate and greater show of force than isolated incidents of stupid college kids being stupid college kids.

And I know you see the difference. Let's not pretend otherwise.

I'm confused as to what your definition of an"isolated incident" is. So these incidents of fit into a broad pattern of that students have been complaining about for years, but they're isolated? That's like saying that Ferguson happened merely because Mike Brown got killed.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
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11/13/2015 5:54:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/13/2015 3:43:23 AM, YYW wrote:


With regard to PCP, his analogies to between MLK and #BLM are historically embarrassing. The fact that some (not all, or even most) people react or reacted to things in similar ways, even if that is true (and I do not concede that it is) does not make people the same. Some people accused Edward Snowden of being a terrorist. Other people said that Osama Bin Laden was a terrorist. They are obviously not similar people, nor did they do similar things, and there is no rational comparison between them. The kind of logic used to make the comparisons is incredibly weak. So weak, in fact, that it would require me to vacate my sense of reality to even entertain them.

Actually I'm just going to say you missed the entire point of me drawing that comparison. But, yeah ok.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
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11/13/2015 6:02:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/13/2015 4:50:15 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 11/12/2015 4:10:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Sorry, nope. Just responding to the part about how it makes blacks look bad for right now: people love their respectability politics, especially when it's not them being told to be respectable in the face of oppression. *Problem is , it doesn't work, and they shouldn't have to do it in the first place.

There's a difference between respectability politics, and intelligent politics. Movements like this need to understand cause and effect, and the effect here was not good. What was accomplished? They got an inept president fired. What was sacrificed to do this? Credibility on a massive scale, especially among those within the establishment who were capable of making changes. BLM made similar mistakes. If they had gone for jury reforms and focused on the corruption in law enforcement, they could have had a big tent. I know from experience that lower middle class white people are incensed by cronyism in policing. Had criticism been focused there, a coalition very well could have been built. But instead the result was strident rhetoric, stupidity like 'privilege checking', and an attitude which is insular at best.

There is a middle ground between 'the meek shall inherit the earth' respectability politics and 'let the world burn' hostility. If black movements want to be in any way efficacious, they need to find it. If they narrow the focus, build coalitions with the like-minded, and become willing to put aside differences, then so much more could be accomplished. Results will follow if they get mad and outraged, but control and focus that energy towards a concrete goal.

I agree with most of what you said here, but that's not really addressing why I said that. I'm responding specifically to YYW's post which reeks of respectability politics.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!