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Dress Code Laws

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/27/2010 11:55:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
My b!tchy ex-roommate (who can go die in a fire for all I care) has become obsessed with racial issues. It's probably because she has a guilty conscience after all the times she ran around the apartment saying n!gger before her hypocritical change of heart, but I digress. Anyway she posted a picture of a new sign posted outside of a local bar. The sign prohibits:

- excessively large chains
- sunglasses at night
- baggy jeans
- crooked hats
- bandanas
- wave caps
- sleeveless shirts

She is up in arms and has sent a letter to the ACLU citing racial discrimination. I told her that I didn't think this was against the law, because private establishments as far as I know are absolutely allowed to implement dress codes. It has nothing to so with race, as people of any race can wear those things. She responded by insulting me and calling me a whole bunch of names (not surprising) including ignorant, which apparently I was, because the ACLU has got some in trouble with this before.

http://www.aclu.org...

Is this legal? Please don't respond with your opinion (I know almost everyone would be in favor of private business rights) but any information you have regarding the legality of the dress code, and whether or not it's racial profiling as she suggests.
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LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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9/27/2010 12:37:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm not 100% sure that the dress code is legal, but the Arkansas case you posted doesn't apply to this situation. The suit alleged that the city government was violating 1st amendment rights, not that racist dress codes were inherently illegal. Since the 1st amendment only applies to what governments may not do, it isn't relevant to this case.

I doubt a judge would rule that a dress code for a private business is illegal, although it's possible, as there's always some made-up legal justification for things like this. Of course, if the ACLU does take this up, it won't go to court. They'll play the race card in the court of public opinion and end up getting the policy changed.
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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/27/2010 12:50:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I can't cite you specific examples without signing up to an HR resource website for $30 a month, but as far as I know, it's completely legal to implement dress codes in private establishments, be it for business purposes or restaurants or schools, so long as it isn't discriminatory. That cavaet right there is vague and can work in many ways, but it means your roommate's ACLU case could get some traction if indeed the dress code is found out to be "discriminatory," meaning that those codes there have to have some form of justifiable purpose that can be held up against whatever the ACLU would say.

By the way, isn't any "change of heart" by definition hypocritical? ;)
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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9/27/2010 2:10:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'd say the issue is what LF said... The State shouldn't be able to discriminate based on cultural dress... But last I knew the Civil Rights amendment didn't say private individuals couldn't discriminate based upon cultural dress.

Plenty of restaurants mandate certain kind of dress to get in... and have for a long time.
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wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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9/27/2010 2:22:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm pretty sure it's illegal for a business to discriminate. The court gets to decide arbitrarily if that is discrimination, but it obviously isn't. The rule has the same limitations on blacks and whites.
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mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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9/27/2010 2:27:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 2:22:01 PM, wjmelements wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's illegal for a business to discriminate. The court gets to decide arbitrarily if that is discrimination, but it obviously isn't. The rule has the same limitations on blacks and whites.

Of course, schools have as many dress codes as they want. It is silly to not let businesses have the same authority as schools over the people who voluntarily enter.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/27/2010 2:39:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It would be retarded for a judge to rule this as discriminatory, because the ruling in itself would be solidifying a stereotype. It's not an anti-black ruling as much as it is an anti-d!ckhead ruling imo. I mean, white people wear crooked hats, baggy trousers, etc. They're called wiggers and they're, by in large, d!ckheads.

I'm of the view it shouldn't be an issue for a business to bar anyone for any reason, but that's not really applicable. My two cents is that the case will come down to the ruling judge. However, for the ruling to go in the ACLU's favour you're gonna want really PC judge and a pretty convincing ACLU case.
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mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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9/27/2010 2:47:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
There was a college that was letting people use a Kindle, or something similar, for all of there college textbooks. The students loved it. Then the Department of Justice sued them, because it discriminated. AGAINST THE BLIND. 'Cause you know, books don't do that anyways.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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9/27/2010 2:48:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Anyone who thinks that the dress code is racist is, without a doubt, racist themselves. The things listed don't even have legitimate cultural importance unless you want to argue that thugishness is inherent in black culture.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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9/27/2010 2:51:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 2:39:17 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
However, for the ruling to go in the ACLU's favour you're gonna want really PC judge and a pretty convincing ACLU case.

If the ACLU were to argue this case, they'd be supporting racial stereotypes. They may not take it at all.
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I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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9/27/2010 2:51:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 2:47:38 PM, mongoose wrote:
There was a college that was letting people use a Kindle, or something similar, for all of there college textbooks. The students loved it. Then the Department of Justice sued them, because it discriminated. AGAINST THE BLIND. 'Cause you know, books don't do that anyways.

You can get Braille Kindles :P? JBlake translates college books into Audio for disabled students in his college. An Audiobook wouldn't be too far-fetched. What idiots.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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9/27/2010 2:53:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 2:51:09 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/27/2010 2:47:38 PM, mongoose wrote:
There was a college that was letting people use a Kindle, or something similar, for all of there college textbooks. The students loved it. Then the Department of Justice sued them, because it discriminated. AGAINST THE BLIND. 'Cause you know, books don't do that anyways.

You can get Braille Kindles :P? JBlake translates college books into Audio for disabled students in his college. An Audiobook wouldn't be too far-fetched. What idiots.

Audiobooks? But that discriminates against the DEAF! And selling milk is discriminatory against the lactose-intolerant.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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9/27/2010 2:57:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 2:47:38 PM, mongoose wrote:
There was a college that was letting people use a Kindle, or something similar, for all of there college textbooks. The students loved it. Then the Department of Justice sued them, because it discriminated. AGAINST THE BLIND. 'Cause you know, books don't do that anyways.
http://www.edukindle.com...
They were violating the Americans With Disabilities Act. Good thing we have measures to protect the disabled from such cruel injustice.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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9/27/2010 2:58:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 2:53:47 PM, mongoose wrote:
And selling milk is discriminatory against the lactose-intolerant.
The issue was that they were providing Kindles to students and taking public funds.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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9/27/2010 3:01:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 2:57:26 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 9/27/2010 2:47:38 PM, mongoose wrote:
There was a college that was letting people use a Kindle, or something similar, for all of there college textbooks. The students loved it. Then the Department of Justice sued them, because it discriminated. AGAINST THE BLIND. 'Cause you know, books don't do that anyways.
http://www.edukindle.com...
They were violating the Americans With Disabilities Act. Good thing we have measures to protect the disabled from such cruel injustice.

We may as well ban iPods, too. And cars. And paint. What good is paint to somebody who is blind?
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
mongoose
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9/27/2010 3:03:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 2:58:46 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 9/27/2010 2:53:47 PM, mongoose wrote:
And selling milk is discriminatory against the lactose-intolerant.
The issue was that they were providing Kindles to students and taking public funds.

I can't find that.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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9/27/2010 3:04:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 3:03:29 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 9/27/2010 2:58:46 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 9/27/2010 2:53:47 PM, mongoose wrote:
And selling milk is discriminatory against the lactose-intolerant.
The issue was that they were providing Kindles to students and taking public funds.
I can't find that.
Link again.
http://www.edukindle.com...
providing Kindles to sighted students
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/27/2010 10:13:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 12:50:44 PM, Volkov wrote:
By the way, isn't any "change of heart" by definition hypocritical? ;)

Hehe I see what you're saying but you'd have to know the whole backstory to catch my drift :p
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/27/2010 10:17:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 2:22:01 PM, wjmelements wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's illegal for a business to discriminate.

Yes, on the basis of race, religion, sex, etc. (See: CRA 1964). But is it illegal to discriminate based on dress? I never heard of such a thing! I've been to SO many bars and clubs that have dress codes. What about places that mandate a suit and tie? What about black tie affairs? The basis of her complaint is that those things are typically associated with black people; however, as many of you have pointed out, it's racist in itself to assume that black people are the ones being "thuggish," and the bar seeks to eliminate ALL "thuggish" people regardless of race. The establishment has a new owner, and they're probably just trying to clean up the image and make it a classier bar instead of another typical rowdy college hangout. Is that illegal these days? Sheesh.
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feverish
Posts: 2,716
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9/28/2010 6:17:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Dress codes suck.

This particular one is amusing in it's specifics and is a long way from the standard "no hats, hoods or trainers" (trainers are sneakers) rules that you get a lot in England.

Have no idea how anti-discrimination laws would address this, but it's cultural prejudice rather than actual racism in my opinion. Still sucks though.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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9/28/2010 7:56:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 2:53:47 PM, mongoose wrote:
Audiobooks? But that discriminates against the DEAF! And selling milk is discriminatory against the lactose-intolerant.

The Army should either have Strictly computer targeting... or instruct the soldiers to ONLY engage in Grappling techniques so as not to discriminate against the blind.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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9/28/2010 8:45:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The government shouldn't torture because some people are more sensitive than others. Hey! Anti discrimination can be used for good! :D
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/28/2010 9:00:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/28/2010 6:17:47 AM, feverish wrote:
Have no idea how anti-discrimination laws would address this, but it's cultural prejudice rather than actual racism in my opinion. Still sucks though.

That's what I'm thinking... most people I know who wear sunglasses at night and sleeveless shirts are white. White guys wear baggy jeans all the time. Excessive chains? I'm 100% Italian -- every guy in my family has a gigantic cross or some other gaudy Christian symbolism. I just can't believe that not wanting to have a "thuggish" atmosphere is punishable by law lol ridiculous!
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J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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9/28/2010 9:06:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/27/2010 2:47:38 PM, mongoose wrote:
There was a college that was letting people use a Kindle, or something similar, for all of there college textbooks. The students loved it. Then the Department of Justice sued them, because it discriminated. AGAINST THE BLIND. 'Cause you know, books don't do that anyways.

Wtf? That doesn't even make sense; you can plug your headphones into the Kindle and have it read the book out loud...
Loserboi
Posts: 1,232
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9/28/2010 4:19:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It is not racial profiling because there is nothing that refers to race in those demands. As long as the bar does not openly say the do not admit a certain kind of people it is all legally sound. Clubs usually implement a dress code policy that bans wearing those items to get in. It should not matter if it is a bar, if it works for the clubs it should work for the bars.