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The opinion of a prominant "feminist Muslim"

TBR
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11/20/2015 9:16:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/20/2015 8:51:39 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Asra Nomani (A Muslim) interviews with Bill Maher.

http://youtu.be...

Its a good interview.
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,610
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11/21/2015 12:39:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/20/2015 8:51:39 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Asra Nomani (A Muslim) interviews with Bill Maher.

http://youtu.be...

This is a brave person. Knowing how conservative and radical of Islam behaves, I'm sure she'll get plenty of death threats. There are a number of people like her in Canada and every one receives death threats weekly. Don't dare to speak out in Islam. Personal free thinking is not allowed.
Yassine
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11/21/2015 9:47:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
- One: she is a Muslim, sure, but not a practicing Muslim. Two: she isn't a moderate Muslim, she is a extremist Muslim, though at the other side of extremism.

- Also, It's a good thing to call for equality & whatnot, it's a stupid thing to be self-righteous about the liberal view of what equality entails as opposed to others.
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Yassine
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11/21/2015 9:48:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 12:39:08 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
At 11/20/2015 8:51:39 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Asra Nomani (A Muslim) interviews with Bill Maher.

http://youtu.be...

This is a brave person. Knowing how conservative and radical of Islam behaves, I'm sure she'll get plenty of death threats. There are a number of people like her in Canada and every one receives death threats weekly. Don't dare to speak out in Islam. Personal free thinking is not allowed.

- Dude, stop the hate. Enough! You don't even know what you're talking about.
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JMcKinley
Posts: 314
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11/21/2015 12:46:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 9:48:32 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/21/2015 12:39:08 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
At 11/20/2015 8:51:39 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Asra Nomani (A Muslim) interviews with Bill Maher.

http://youtu.be...

This is a brave person. Knowing how conservative and radical of Islam behaves, I'm sure she'll get plenty of death threats. There are a number of people like her in Canada and every one receives death threats weekly. Don't dare to speak out in Islam. Personal free thinking is not allowed.

- Dude, stop the hate. Enough! You don't even know what you're talking about.

Are you suggesting that Muslim women who challenge doctrines of the faith do not routinely receive death threats? Because I can assure you that they do.

Its not racism to comment on facts. Truth can't be racist.
Yassine
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11/21/2015 1:18:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 12:46:44 PM, JMcKinley wrote:

Are you suggesting that Muslim women who challenge doctrines of the faith do not routinely receive death threats? Because I can assure you that they do.

- One: she doesn't know the doctrines of the faith to even challenge them, she just speaks of her own personal opinions. Two: the death threats, if real, are done by self-righteous bigoted extremists who don't know the doctrines of the faith either, they just can't tolerate anyone, right or wrong, who disagrees with their opinions & what they imagine those doctrines to be. Three: thus the problem is not in Islam, it's in bigotry & extremism, hence what I wrote.

Its not racism to comment on facts.

- Commenting on facts is not necessarily a fact.

Truth can't be racist.

- Truth can indeed be racist. For instance, facts about the physiology of a race.
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JMcKinley
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11/21/2015 2:38:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 1:18:59 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/21/2015 12:46:44 PM, JMcKinley wrote:

Are you suggesting that Muslim women who challenge doctrines of the faith do not routinely receive death threats? Because I can assure you that they do.

- One: she doesn't know the doctrines of the faith to even challenge them, she just speaks of her own personal opinions. Two: the death threats, if real, are done by self-righteous bigoted extremists who don't know the doctrines of the faith either, they just can't tolerate anyone, right or wrong, who disagrees with their opinions & what they imagine those doctrines to be. Three: thus the problem is not in Islam, it's in bigotry & extremism, hence what I wrote.

Its not racism to comment on facts.

- Commenting on facts is not necessarily a fact.

Truth can't be racist.

- Truth can indeed be racist. For instance, facts about the physiology of a race.

No it can not, that's absurd. Racism requires the unfair judgement or treatment of others based on their race (I realize we're talking religion here and not race). It is the believe that any given race is inferior to others. Facts about the physiology of a race are not racist. Black people in North America on average are taller than white people. But that's not racist. Urinary tract infections are more common in women than in men, but that's not sexist. HIV/AIDS affects more gay people than straight people, but that's not homophobia. Its just truth. Acknowledging facts does not make a person a bigot.

If something is true of Islam, such as the FACT that Muslim women who speak out routinely receive death threats, then its not racist to point that out or to criticize it. But it would be racist to assume that Muhammad who lives down the street is a bigoted woman hater, simply because he's Muslim.

Its not racist for me to point out that the majority of violent crime in America is committed by blacks. That's a fact. What I do with that information is what makes me racist or not. Its not racist for me to acknowledge that it is a problem that needs addressing. But it would be racist for me to assume that any specific black person I meet is a criminal and to treat them as such without giving them the opportunity to show me who they actually are.

Its the same with Muslims. I know that not all are extremists. I know that most of the approximately 2 billion Muslims in the world are good people just trying to live life and be happy. But I also know that there is a very real and demonstrable problem with violent fanatical extremism within Islam. This is a fact, plain and simple.
TBR
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11/21/2015 4:14:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
- Also, It's a good thing to call for equality & whatnot, it's a stupid thing to be self-righteous about the liberal view of what equality entails as opposed to others.

Then how is it not stupid to be self-righteous about criticising her?

The religion will change, it is inevitable. I believe it will chance through women. Get ready, it will come.
Fly
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11/21/2015 5:01:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The late Christopher Hitchens said that the easiest way to fight poverty in the world is to give women equal opportunity. I am interested in finding out how right he is because I wonder if it isn't prosperity that leads to equality or equality that leads to prosperity (as Hitchens claims) or some combo of both reinforcing each other...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Yassine
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11/21/2015 7:19:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 4:14:47 PM, TBR wrote:

Then how is it not stupid to be self-righteous about criticising her?

- It's neither stupid nor self-righteous. One: I was making a general statement, she may or may not fit its premise. Two: I am a cultural relativist, I don't hold the belief that equality should entail the same meanings for everyone, while she supposedly does.

The religion will change, it is inevitable.

- That depends on what you mean by religion, & what you mean by change.

I believe it will chance through women. Get ready, it will come.

- You're free to believe whatever you want. The Islamic Tradition, as in the scholarly representation of Islam, changes only in so far as it renews itself to adapt to the ever changing norms of society, It can not change otherwise, no matter how you wish for that to happen. & women scholars contribute to the Tradition too, & have always been. One of the 7 founders of the Islamic Tradition was a woman, Aisha, plus her being the 4th authority on Sunnah.

- As for the lady on TV, she has no authority & no qualification to represent the religion. This goes for the all her peers as well.
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TBR
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11/21/2015 7:43:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 7:19:03 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/21/2015 4:14:47 PM, TBR wrote:

Then how is it not stupid to be self-righteous about criticising her?

- It's neither stupid nor self-righteous. One: I was making a general statement, she may or may not fit its premise. Two: I am a cultural relativist, I don't hold the belief that equality should entail the same meanings for everyone, while she supposedly does.

You ARE saying she is being self-righteous in the first post.

I can not buy that cultural relativist when people inside the culture are asking for change.


The religion will change, it is inevitable.

- That depends on what you mean by religion, & what you mean by change.

Well, I mean at some point abandoning most of the dogmatic aspects.


I believe it will chance through women. Get ready, it will come.

- You're free to believe whatever you want. The Islamic Tradition, as in the scholarly representation of Islam, changes only in so far as it renews itself to adapt to the ever changing norms of society, It can not change otherwise, no matter how you wish for that to happen. & women scholars contribute to the Tradition too, & have always been. One of the 7 founders of the Islamic Tradition was a woman, Aisha, plus her being the 4th authority on Sunnah.

You really think that it will not change? I would bet otherwise.


- As for the lady on TV, she has no authority & no qualification to represent the religion. This goes for the all her peers as well.

So what! This pisses me off. She is NOT ABLE to "lead" men so women will never have a valid voice in maters of the region? And, you want to make any point about women in Islam?
Mirza
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11/21/2015 7:51:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 7:43:00 PM, TBR wrote:
So what! This pisses me off. She is NOT ABLE to "lead" men so women will never have a valid voice in maters of the region? And, you want to make any point about women in Islam?
That's not the point. She doesn't have authority in the theological matters whatsoever. She's no scholar, just a self-promoted attention-whore.
Yassine
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11/21/2015 7:58:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 7:43:00 PM, TBR wrote:

You ARE saying she is being self-righteous in the first post.

- Again, I was making a general statement. I could be referring to Maher for all you know.

I can not buy that cultural relativist when people inside the culture are asking for change.

- The more reason you should buy into it, unless you don't know what cultural relativism stands for.

Well, I mean at some point abandoning most of the dogmatic aspects.

- Islam was founded on Reason. The dogma it holds is no any less reasonable that the dogma Science, for instance, holds.

You really think that it will not change? I would bet otherwise.

- I can give you my reasons, can you give yours?

So what! This pisses me off. She is NOT ABLE to "lead" men so women will never have a valid voice in maters of the religion?

- It's an issue of qualification, not gender. Qualified women have as much wight in their voice as qualified men. Unqualified men have as much non-authoritative voice as unqualified women. There have been tons of women scholars across Islamic History, who contributed immensely to the Islamic Tradition. As I said, one of the 7 highest scholarly positions one hold have in Islam is taken by a woman.

And, you want to make any point about women in Islam?

- What about them?! Anything specific?!
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Yassine
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11/21/2015 8:07:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 7:51:50 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/21/2015 7:43:00 PM, TBR wrote:
So what! This pisses me off. She is NOT ABLE to "lead" men so women will never have a valid voice in maters of the region? And, you want to make any point about women in Islam?
That's not the point. She doesn't have authority in the theological matters whatsoever. She's no scholar, just a self-promoted attention-whore.

- LOL!
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Yassine
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11/21/2015 8:32:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 2:38:16 PM, JMcKinley wrote:

No it can not, that's absurd. Racism requires the unfair judgement or treatment of others based on their race (I realize we're talking religion here and not race). It is the believe that any given race is inferior to others. Facts about the physiology of a race are not racist.

- They are. Racism is the belief that race is an inherent determinant for a feature shared by a race. Denying the concept by principal, which seems to be the case in the West now (it wasn't before mid-20th century), is a false contention, for race is linked to genetics features, which are, by design, inherent features.

- The fact is, aside from biological observation, it's really hard to make general valid racist statements about particular races, such in social settings.

Black people in North America on average are taller than white people. But that's not racist. Urinary tract infections are more common in women than in men, but that's not sexist. HIV/AIDS affects more gay people than straight people, but that's not homophobia. Its just truth.

- Those facts are not even related to racism. If you say, black people are necessarily (inherently by nature) taller than white people, then you're making a racist statement. That statement could be wrong as it could be right.

Acknowledging facts does not make a person a bigot.

- Saying racist stuff does not necessarily make you a bigot, though most of the time, it does.

If something is true of Islam, such as the FACT that Muslim women who speak out routinely receive death threats, then its not racist to point that out or to criticize it.

- Not just women! In the eyes of those bigoted extremists, anyone who speaks out against their own specific worldview, be it good or bad, even if they represent true Islam, is a heretic in their eyes. This, of course, has nothing to do with Islam, it has to do with self-righteous bigotry. Actual scholars too get these threats just as much, which is not that much.

But it would be racist to assume that Muhammad who lives down the street is a bigoted woman hater, simply because he's Muslim.

- Indeed.

Its not racist for me to point out that the majority of violent crime in America is committed by blacks. That's a fact.

- Again, that doesn't relate to racism.

What I do with that information is what makes me racist or not.

- If you say, blacks are inherently violent criminals, it would indeed.

Its not racist for me to acknowledge that it is a problem that needs addressing. But it would be racist for me to assume that any specific black person I meet is a criminal and to treat them as such without giving them the opportunity to show me who they actually are.

- Sounds good.

Its the same with Muslims. I know that not all are extremists. I know that most of the approximately 2 billion Muslims in the world are good people just trying to live life and be happy. But I also know that there is a very real and demonstrable problem with violent fanatical extremism within Islam. This is a fact, plain and simple.

- That IS a fact. So?!
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ben2974
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11/21/2015 9:55:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/20/2015 8:51:39 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Asra Nomani (A Muslim) interviews with Bill Maher.

http://youtu.be...

That's how we (the West) like our Muslims!
BlackFlags
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11/21/2015 10:08:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I didn't get the impression she was really that educated on Islamic theology either. It is like how the majority of people here call themselves Christians without having even a very base understanding of Christian theology.

The 'Who's Abraham?" kind of people
Mirza
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11/21/2015 10:41:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 8:07:30 PM, Yassine wrote:
- LOL!
What I said is essentially true for nearly every single of these so-called Muslims, particularly women, who have supposedly found a solution to Islam's problems. Their passion for reform is stupid, and as are they, for by campaigning for "reform", they're suggesting Islam is inherently erroneous, and that what they seek to change has always been as it is (in spite of the numerous interpretations that are not only more scripturally coherent, but also stem from the views of the majority of Islamic theologians in history).

Another fanatic: https://www.youtube.com...
Mirza
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11/21/2015 10:54:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 10:41:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
Another fanatic: https://www.youtube.com...
This is how stupid she is, and I want everyone to scroll to 8:50 in the video.

She cites Quran 5:32 - "On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

This she finds problematic; while she is fine with the part that says killing an innocent person is as if one kills the entire humankind, she has issue with the part that says it is permissible if done to punish him for murder or spreading corruption in the land. In other words, she wants the Quran to never specify to Muslims when they can fight. We must be pure pacifists, and stand still when bombs rain over our heads.

What an idiot. This is literally what she wants to "reform".
Yassine
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11/21/2015 11:23:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 10:41:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/21/2015 8:07:30 PM, Yassine wrote:
- LOL!
What I said is essentially true for nearly every single of these so-called Muslims, particularly women, who have supposedly found a solution to Islam's problems. Their passion for reform is stupid, and as are they, for by campaigning for "reform", they're suggesting Islam is inherently erroneous, and that what they seek to change has always been as it is (in spite of the numerous interpretations that are not only more scripturally coherent, but also stem from the views of the majority of Islamic theologians in history).

Another fanatic: https://www.youtube.com...

- I don't disagree at all. I would've merely just used a different language than wh*re. These people think as if reform is the solution, while in reality it's the source of all problems Islam faces today. The Salafi movement & its likes are in fact reformist movements! & the only thing reform leads to is the destruction of religion & utter the loss of its coherence.
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Yassine
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11/21/2015 11:25:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 10:54:44 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/21/2015 10:41:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
Another fanatic: https://www.youtube.com...
This is how stupid she is, and I want everyone to scroll to 8:50 in the video.

She cites Quran 5:32 - "On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

This she finds problematic; while she is fine with the part that says killing an innocent person is as if one kills the entire humankind, she has issue with the part that says it is permissible if done to punish him for murder or spreading corruption in the land. In other words, she wants the Quran to never specify to Muslims when they can fight. We must be pure pacifists, and stand still when bombs rain over our heads.

What an idiot. This is literally what she wants to "reform".

- HOLY SH*T. She gave me a head-ache. Apparently, she doesn't understand the very obvious fact of having a Penal Code & a Martial Code!
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Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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Mirza
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11/21/2015 11:27:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 11:23:25 PM, Yassine wrote:
- I don't disagree at all. I would've merely just used a different language than wh*re. These people think as if reform is the solution, while in reality it's the source of all problems Islam faces today. The Salafi movement & its likes are in fact reformist movements! & the only thing reform leads to is the destruction of religion & utter the loss of its coherence.
I said she's an attention-whore, which is true, and needs to be told.
Mirza
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11/21/2015 11:29:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 11:25:16 PM, Yassine wrote:
- HOLY SH*T. She gave me a head-ache. Apparently, she doesn't understand the very obvious fact of having a Penal Code & a Martial Code!
Islam: "Don't punch anyone..."

She: "Great!"

Islam: "... unless they punch you first."

She: "Daaaaaaamn, gotta reform that."
GrittyWorm
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11/22/2015 1:16:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 10:54:44 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/21/2015 10:41:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
Another fanatic: https://www.youtube.com...
This is how stupid she is, and I want everyone to scroll to 8:50 in the video.

She cites Quran 5:32 - "On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

This she finds problematic; while she is fine with the part that says killing an innocent person is as if one kills the entire humankind, she has issue with the part that says it is permissible if done to punish him for murder or spreading corruption in the land. In other words, she wants the Quran to never specify to Muslims when they can fight. We must be pure pacifists, and stand still when bombs rain over our heads.

What an idiot. This is literally what she wants to "reform".

September 11th was not defending against bombs. It brought the bombs.
PetersSmith
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11/22/2015 2:36:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/20/2015 8:51:39 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Asra Nomani (A Muslim) interviews with Bill Maher.

http://youtu.be...

*Patriarchy smashing intensifies*
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lotsoffun
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11/22/2015 5:33:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 9:48:32 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/21/2015 12:39:08 AM, lotsoffun wrote:
At 11/20/2015 8:51:39 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
Asra Nomani (A Muslim) interviews with Bill Maher.

http://youtu.be...

This is a brave person. Knowing how conservative and radical of Islam behaves, I'm sure she'll get plenty of death threats. There are a number of people like her in Canada and every one receives death threats weekly. Don't dare to speak out in Islam. Personal free thinking is not allowed.

- Dude, stop the hate. Enough! You don't even know what you're talking about.

How is it that I don't know what I'm talking about? What I said is true. Radical Islam is a threat to the entire world. If you want to put your head in the sand then go ahead.
lotsoffun
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11/22/2015 5:49:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 7:19:03 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/21/2015 4:14:47 PM, TBR wrote:

Then how is it not stupid to be self-righteous about criticising her?

- It's neither stupid nor self-righteous. One: I was making a general statement, she may or may not fit its premise. Two: I am a cultural relativist, I don't hold the belief that equality should entail the same meanings for everyone, while she supposedly does.

The religion will change, it is inevitable.

- That depends on what you mean by religion, & what you mean by change.

I believe it will chance through women. Get ready, it will come.

- You're free to believe whatever you want. The Islamic Tradition, as in the scholarly representation of Islam, changes only in so far as it renews itself to adapt to the ever changing norms of society, It can not change otherwise, no matter how you wish for that to happen. & women scholars contribute to the Tradition too, & have always been. One of the 7 founders of the Islamic Tradition was a woman, Aisha, plus her being the 4th authority on Sunnah.

- As for the lady on TV, she has no authority & no qualification to represent the religion. This goes for the all her peers as well.

The average Muslim who lives with and understands what 's going on in a community has all the authority in the world to speak her mind and represent her religion. The same goes for any religion. Who are you to make the decision about who is and who isn't qualified to speak about their own religion. She experiences it. One (you) can study a religion all they want and claim to have all knowledge (we should call you Allah) but her experience is a very real part of Islam.
TBR
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11/22/2015 7:30:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/21/2015 7:58:29 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 11/21/2015 7:43:00 PM, TBR wrote:

You ARE saying she is being self-righteous in the first post.

- Again, I was making a general statement. I could be referring to Maher for all you know.

I can not buy that cultural relativist when people inside the culture are asking for change.

- The more reason you should buy into it, unless you don't know what cultural relativism stands for.

Well, I mean at some point abandoning most of the dogmatic aspects.

- Islam was founded on Reason. The dogma it holds is no any less reasonable that the dogma Science, for instance, holds.

Yea. Got it.


You really think that it will not change? I would bet otherwise.

- I can give you my reasons, can you give yours?

Sure. Because people grow the he11 up. Leave the childish nonsense behind them.


So what! This pisses me off. She is NOT ABLE to "lead" men so women will never have a valid voice in maters of the religion?

- It's an issue of qualification, not gender. Qualified women have as much wight in their voice as qualified men. Unqualified men have as much non-authoritative voice as unqualified women. There have been tons of women scholars across Islamic History, who contributed immensely to the Islamic Tradition. As I said, one of the 7 highest scholarly positions one hold have in Islam is taken by a woman.

You saying a woman can lead men in the religion?


And, you want to make any point about women in Islam?

- What about them?! Anything specific?!

I despise the general treatment of women in the Islamic world. You can talk cultural relativism all day long, that has no effect on how I will see the oppression of women.