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Turkey shoots down Russian fighter jet

beng100
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11/24/2015 6:09:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
After numerous alleged incursions into Turkish airspace by Russian jets throughout its Syrian air canpaign and words of warning from Turkey, today turkey shot down a Russian plane it claims entered its airspace and had been warned ten times to leave. The two pilots allegedly parachuted to safety but their current location and condition is currently unknown. This development is clearly worrying. Vladimir Putin has claimed there will be serious consequences for Turkey. Thoughts?
BlackFlags
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11/24/2015 6:19:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Meanwhile in Arabia, the RSA continues to lose territory to the Yemeni Army after getting their asses handed to them once again. What will this mean for the future of stability in the Middle East, as Shiite Iran and Yemen now dominate this geopolitical sphere...

Wait, that's right, no one cares...
beng100
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11/24/2015 6:28:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 6:19:30 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
Meanwhile in Arabia, the RSA continues to lose territory to the Yemeni Army after getting their asses handed to them once again. What will this mean for the future of stability in the Middle East, as Shiite Iran and Yemen now dominate this geopolitical sphere...

Wait, that's right, no one cares...

Yes agree it is incredibly odd the media is not reporting on that. Why do you think they are turning a blind eye to it? My guess would be a lack of public interest but I agree its a significant event that deserves more coverage.
Emilrose
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11/24/2015 6:30:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 6:19:30 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
Meanwhile in Arabia, the RSA continues to lose territory to the Yemeni Army after getting their asses handed to them once again. What will this mean for the future of stability in the Middle East, as Shiite Iran and Yemen now dominate this geopolitical sphere...

Wait, that's right, no one cares...

It's Saudi Arabia that really dominates it ;) And Israel.

But really, you're comparison between the two events is slightly misguided because *both* have been reported on. I've seen the conflict in Yemen included on written and televised news.
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BlackFlags
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11/24/2015 6:32:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 6:30:46 PM, Emilrose wrote:
But really, you're comparison between the two events is slightly misguided because *both* have been reported on. I've seen the conflict in Yemen included on written and televised news.

If you go to Thomas Reuters or BBC World News, sure. Even they have let me down, so I had to resort to Yemeni News Agencies for coverage.

The level of coverage about Yemen is similar to Africa. Read my other post before you respond, it will include a lot of events that happened in Yemen that I bet you hadn't heard about on the news.
Emilrose
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11/24/2015 6:44:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 6:32:46 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 11/24/2015 6:30:46 PM, Emilrose wrote:
But really, you're comparison between the two events is slightly misguided because *both* have been reported on. I've seen the conflict in Yemen included on written and televised news.

If you go to Thomas Reuters or BBC World News, sure. Even they have let me down, so I had to resort to Yemeni News Agencies for coverage.

Hmm, they haven't let me down ;) The BBC in particular has reported on it, as I've seen when actually watching videos on the BBC news website.

The level of coverage about Yemen is similar to Africa. Read my other post before you respond, it will include a lot of events that happened in Yemen that I bet you hadn't heard about on the news.

I follow the news a lot, and by that I mean pretty ALL news--so I have in fact heard about the majority of events in Yemen. As for Africa, again: if you want to learn about it, you can. My only issue with reporting on Africa is that the religious minorities over there, and the African refugees, are not getting as much attention or media coverage as those in the Middle East.
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

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John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
BlackFlags
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11/24/2015 6:46:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 6:28:41 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 11/24/2015 6:19:30 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
Meanwhile in Arabia, the RSA continues to lose territory to the Yemeni Army after getting their asses handed to them once again. What will this mean for the future of stability in the Middle East, as Shiite Iran and Yemen now dominate this geopolitical sphere...

Wait, that's right, no one cares...

Yes agree it is incredibly odd the media is not reporting on that. Why do you think they are turning a blind eye to it? My guess would be a lack of public interest but I agree its a significant event that deserves more coverage.

I don't know to be honest.

Here are all the major events I remember that were not on the news.

- Houthis commander threatens to invade Saudi Arabia
- Houthis in negotiation with the UN reopens the parliament and allows it to function
- Human Rights Groups declare state of emergency (900 civilians dead)
- Egypt sends naval squadron to Yemeni coast
- United Arab Emirates sends infantry and tanks to Aden
- Sudan sends a taskforce of 2000 elite soldiers to Aden
- Human Rights Groups criticize Saudi Arabia for bombing civilians (2000 civilians dead)
- Yemeni Army takes 4 military bases inside Saudi Arabia
- Yemeni Army shoots down a Saudi Arabian War Ship in the Red Sea
- Evidence found that Eritrea was supplying arms to Houthis groups
- Human rights groups again criticize Saudi Arabia for killing civilians (3000 deaths and 4000 deaths let's just make it easy)
- Yemeni Army launches ballistic missile on RSA Airbase in responce to warcrimes
- UAE loses several tanks near Ta'izz
- Coalitions declares the Battle of Aden to be over after UAE and Hadi supporters retake the Aden International Airfield
- The Yemeni Army expands wargoals to include annexation of Saudi Arabia's southern provinces

That is just what I can remember at the top of my head. I opted everything out that hardly made headlines. Let's see what came up in the last 24 hours...

- John Kerry declares that RSAF saturation bombing is "effective" (wow)
- Rebel forces blow up all bridges in Ta'izz province
- UAE sends financial aid to those in captured territory
BlackFlags
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11/24/2015 6:53:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The current situation in Yemen btw is that the Yemeni Armed Forces and more specifically the Republican Guard, have occupied a large portion of Saudi Arabia's southern provinces, and have costed the government there tremendously in war losses. Every couple months a thousand civilians will have died over there.

By the time this war ends, the map of the Middle East is going to look different, especially if the Republican Guard continues winning victories over the Royal Saudi Armed Forces and can gain de-facto control over Asir Province.

The fear is that if the Saudi Arabia and the GCC nations become defeated here, shiite nations like Iran and Yemen will have incredible influence in the Middle East.
beng100
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11/24/2015 7:04:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 6:53:00 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
The current situation in Yemen btw is that the Yemeni Armed Forces and more specifically the Republican Guard, have occupied a large portion of Saudi Arabia's southern provinces, and have costed the government there tremendously in war losses. Every couple months a thousand civilians will have died over there.

By the time this war ends, the map of the Middle East is going to look different, especially if the Republican Guard continues winning victories over the Royal Saudi Armed Forces and can gain de-facto control over Asir Province.

The fear is that if the Saudi Arabia and the GCC nations become defeated here, shiite nations like Iran and Yemen will have incredible influence in the Middle East.

Thanks for the information. How much of its total territory do you think Saudi Arabia stands to loose?
BlackFlags
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11/24/2015 7:23:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 7:04:44 PM, beng100 wrote:
Thanks for the information. How much of its total territory do you think Saudi Arabia stands to loose?

If the Yemeni Armed Forces fulfill their new war objectives, they would have recovered all the territory they lost in the 1934 war with Saudi Arabia, which primarily includes the Asir Region.

I haven't seen any maps emerge, but I know that the Yemeni Army has drove out the RSA from many of the military installations there. The ones they didn't occupy were obliterated by heavy artillery fire (many people neglect to realize the Republican Guard is a modernized and elite force)

It doesn't really matter who controls Asir in my opinion. The concern is that after this, the two largest armies in the Middle East (egypt not included), Yemen and Iran, will have unmatched hegemony in the Middle East.

Iran which is heavily allied with Russia and has embarked on an incredibly ambitious and expensive military modernization program, runs concerns with the international community that Iran will start flexing military muscle on neighboring Shiite nations, such as Bahrain and Azerbaijan.

The other more immediate threat is that a rogue state will have permanent control over the strategic Red Sea, and begin attacking international shipping. So far they have avoided doing this, choosing instead to shoot at Saudi vessels exclusively. This might not even be a problem though, given how many in the UN are interested in negotiating with the new de-facto government, although they cannot do this as long as foreign forces are intervening in the country.

I had a long discussion on the possibility of an intervention, and what makes this conflict even worst and unlike other interventions NATO has undergone, is that it would involve conventional warfare.

The terrain is in places more treacherous than Afghanistan, and the Yemeni troops are more organized, better equipped, and experienced than the ones in Iraq. There are also 250,000-300,000 of them allied with Houthis. Also unlike Iraq, they are not incredibly stupid when it comes to counteracting aerial bombing, and have mastered the very simple doctrine that Saddam's generals never understood called counter artillery fire.

I have very little faith in US military command. They are a bunch of incompetent imbeciles, and their two greatest weapons, an endless check and a large source of manpower, will be near useless here. The only example of conventional warfare since WW2 has been Iraq, and the Iraqi Army was even more incompetent than us (trust me, you would not believe how stupid these Iraqi generals were, not to mention that their corruption led most of them to be bought off prior to the invasion)
BlackFlags
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11/24/2015 7:32:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The strategic move here would be to declare neutrality and not give Iran the pleasure of having founded a new military ally in the Middle East.

Also there have been lots of concerns about the reliability of US intelligence lately, so it doesn't do us much good to have an official policy of giving intelligence to Saudi Arabia, given they have bombed thousands of non-combatants and have instigated one of the largest humanitarian disasters of this century.

I can just imagine Saudi Arabia excusing their war crimes by diverting blame on the US for handing them faulty intelligence, which isn't exactly true, since there is no way in hell the RSAF saturation bombing campaign isn't intentional, but it is enough for the anti-administration people to go up in arms.
beng100
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11/24/2015 7:39:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
11/24/2015 7:23:28 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 11/24/2015 7:04:44 PM, beng100 wrote:
Thanks for the information. How much of its total territory do you think Saudi Arabia stands to loose?

If the Yemeni Armed Forces fulfill their new war objectives, they would have recovered all the territory they lost in the 1934 war with Saudi Arabia, which primarily includes the Asir Region.

I haven't seen any maps emerge, but I know that the Yemeni Army has drove out the RSA from many of the military installations there. The ones they didn't occupy were obliterated by heavy artillery fire (many people neglect to realize the Republican Guard is a modernized and elite force)

It doesn't really matter who controls Asir in my opinion. The concern is that after this, the two largest armies in the Middle East (egypt not included), Yemen and Iran, will have unmatched hegemony in the Middle East.

Iran which is heavily allied with Russia and has embarked on an incredibly ambitious and expensive military modernization program, runs concerns with the international community that Iran will start flexing military muscle on neighboring Shiite nations, such as Bahrain and Azerbaijan.

The other more immediate threat is that a rogue state will have permanent control over the strategic Red Sea, and begin attacking international shipping. So far they have avoided doing this, choosing instead to shoot at Saudi vessels exclusively. This might not even be a problem though, given how many in the UN are interested in negotiating with the new de-facto government, although they cannot do this as long as foreign forces are intervening in the country.

I had a long discussion on the possibility of an intervention, and what makes this conflict even worst and unlike other interventions NATO has undergone, is that it would involve conventional warfare.

The terrain is in places more treacherous than Afghanistan, and the Yemeni troops are more organized, better equipped, and experienced than the ones in Iraq. There are also 250,000-300,000 of them allied with Houthis. Also unlike Iraq, they are not incredibly stupid when it comes to counteracting aerial bombing, and have mastered the very simple doctrine that Saddam's generals never understood called counter artillery fire.

I have very little faith in US military command. They are a bunch of incompetent imbeciles, and their two greatest weapons, an endless check and a large source of manpower, will be near useless here. The only example of conventional warfare since WW2 has been Iraq, and the Iraqi Army was even more incompetent than us (trust me, you would not believe how stupid these Iraqi generals were, not to mention that their corruption led most of them to be bought off prior to the invasion)

Some very big developments then. Why does Saudi Arabia not use its entire military to rebel the invasion rather then persist with a minimal number of troops? I acknowledge I have limited knowledge of the subject but from my understanding only a small proportion of the large Yemeni army is engaged in Saudi Arabia as it is mainly occupied in internal conflict? You would think a full scale response from Saudi Arabia would repel and push back the invasion?
YYW
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11/24/2015 7:42:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 6:09:38 PM, beng100 wrote:
After numerous alleged incursions into Turkish airspace by Russian jets throughout its Syrian air canpaign and words of warning from Turkey, today turkey shot down a Russian plane it claims entered its airspace and had been warned ten times to leave. The two pilots allegedly parachuted to safety but their current location and condition is currently unknown. This development is clearly worrying. Vladimir Putin has claimed there will be serious consequences for Turkey. Thoughts?

I hope Russia bombs Turkey, and I am not even kidding. The Turkish government has been indirectly assisting ISIS in a number of respects, and Turks themselves have been doing business with ISIS since it has come into existence. The Turks, like the Saudis, are not particularly bothered by ISIS, and are quite happy to see what ISIS is doing to the Kurds.
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BlackFlags
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11/24/2015 7:51:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 7:42:21 PM, YYW wrote:
I hope Russia bombs Turkey, and I am not even kidding. The Turkish government has been indirectly assisting ISIS in a number of respects, and Turks themselves have been doing business with ISIS since it has come into existence. The Turks, like the Saudis, are not particularly bothered by ISIS, and are quite happy to see what ISIS is doing to the Kurds.

Turkey began making steps to cooperate with certain Kurdish groups. They don't like the PPK though, and used the ISIS interventions as a distraction to begin their own campaign against the PPK in that region. Public opinion is that most of the groups representing the Kurds in Turkey are terrorists, which isn't that far from reality.

Also you might be getting ISIS confused with Al-Nusra, which are both sub-affiliates of Al-Qaeda. The Turks have helped Al-Nusra, which I don't necessarily find to be a bad thing since I have a high degree of respect for Al-Nusra's forces.
beng100
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11/24/2015 8:05:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 7:42:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/24/2015 6:09:38 PM, beng100 wrote:
After numerous alleged incursions into Turkish airspace by Russian jets throughout its Syrian air canpaign and words of warning from Turkey, today turkey shot down a Russian plane it claims entered its airspace and had been warned ten times to leave. The two pilots allegedly parachuted to safety but their current location and condition is currently unknown. This development is clearly worrying. Vladimir Putin has claimed there will be serious consequences for Turkey. Thoughts?

I hope Russia bombs Turkey, and I am not even kidding. The Turkish government has been indirectly assisting ISIS in a number of respects, and Turks themselves have been doing business with ISIS since it has come into existence. The Turks, like the Saudis, are not particularly bothered by ISIS, and are quite happy to see what ISIS is doing to the Kurds.

Really? It's a NATO member so surely Putin wouldent risk it? Turkey alone would surely retaliate in some manner and the likely economic isolation of Russia by the west and potential for extra NATO forces on its eastern frontier are surely things Putin wants to avoid. In my opinion he will step up attacks on the Turkic rebels supported by the Turkish government. Attack Turkey's interests and allies on Syria but avoid attacking Turkey itself. I think it would be a strategic error for Putin to bomb Turkey and it would also be a very negative event and a huge escalation in the regional conflict.
BlackFlags
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11/24/2015 8:05:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 7:39:58 PM, beng100 wrote:
Some very big developments then. Why does Saudi Arabia not use its entire military to rebel the invasion rather then persist with a minimal number of troops? I acknowledge I have limited knowledge of the subject but from my understanding only a small proportion of the large Yemeni army is engaged in Saudi Arabia as it is mainly occupied in internal conflict?
The Revolutionary Forces divided into two fronts. The Yemeni Army and Republican Guard stayed in reserve near Sa'naa and various surrounding military installations (but later launched an offensive into Saudi Arabia mostly near the border where they continue to probe and trade artillery fire), while the Houthis militia forces advanced South on Aden.

It seems like both groups are fully committed to their individual fronts. The Houthis Mililitia drove all the way to Aden international airport, but was driven out by the coalition and loyalists who had superior and larger forces, but have managed to hold the city of Ta'izz for months now, where for the most part there has been a loose but static line of defense. There is very little activity from the Yemeni Armed Forces near Ta'izz to my knowledge.

You would think a full scale response from Saudi Arabia would repel and push back the invasion?
They have to be cautious given they are heavily outnumbered *significantly* by the Yemeni Army.

The Saudi Armed Forces always compensated for their lack of manpower by putting an over-reliance on American aircraft. They copied everything about our military, and no one was bold (or smart) enough to tell them that our military is incompetent.

They for the most part have exhausted their armed forces capable of intervening. There isn't really much they can do to fight efficiently against these larger and better trained forces on the ground.

They continue to run aerial and naval operations, but these are risky and can cost the RSA even further financial losses. In addition, as announced publicly by Saudi Arabia during the end of their first declared intervention, they had failed their original purpose, which was to find and destroy heavy weapons, most of which are now heavily protected by AA defenses.

They probably feel pretty desperate too, given the excessive amount of warcrimes they have commited. It is quite ridiculous in my opinion, because they are clearly intentional and pre-meditated.
BlackFlags
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11/24/2015 8:13:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sudan and the Emirates are enjoying their cozy position on the Southern Front. They have tons of mobility, and have plenty of time to plan and execute a large list of potential missions.

Houthis is going for the hedgehog defense near Ta'izz, while the Emirates continue probing easy targets, publicizing their victories, and mooching off the renown they are receiving because of it. Right now their ego and pride are through the roof due to all the brownie points they have been receiving for being one of the few countries to send troops into Yemen. They have been sure to let all the other GCC nations know it too (although they have lossed a couple of high ranking officers to assassinations, but those guys are expendable anyways)
beng100
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11/24/2015 8:19:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 8:05:45 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 11/24/2015 7:39:58 PM, beng100 wrote:
Some very big developments then. Why does Saudi Arabia not use its entire military to rebel the invasion rather then persist with a minimal number of troops? I acknowledge I have limited knowledge of the subject but from my understanding only a small proportion of the large Yemeni army is engaged in Saudi Arabia as it is mainly occupied in internal conflict?
The Revolutionary Forces divided into two fronts. The Yemeni Army and Republican Guard stayed in reserve near Sa'naa and various surrounding military installations (but later launched an offensive into Saudi Arabia mostly near the border where they continue to probe and trade artillery fire), while the Houthis militia forces advanced South on Aden.

It seems like both groups are fully committed to their individual fronts. The Houthis Mililitia drove all the way to Aden international airport, but was driven out by the coalition and loyalists who had superior and larger forces, but have managed to hold the city of Ta'izz for months now, where for the most part there has been a loose but static line of defense. There is very little activity from the Yemeni Armed Forces near Ta'izz to my knowledge.

You would think a full scale response from Saudi Arabia would repel and push back the invasion?
They have to be cautious given they are heavily outnumbered *significantly* by the Yemeni Army.

The Saudi Armed Forces always compensated for their lack of manpower by putting an over-reliance on American aircraft. They copied everything about our military, and no one was bold (or smart) enough to tell them that our military is incompetent.

They for the most part have exhausted their armed forces capable of intervening. There isn't really much they can do to fight efficiently against these larger and better trained forces on the ground.

They continue to run aerial and naval operations, but these are risky and can cost the RSA even further financial losses. In addition, as announced publicly by Saudi Arabia during the end of their first declared intervention, they had failed their original purpose, which was to find and destroy heavy weapons, most of which are now heavily protected by AA defenses.

They probably feel pretty desperate too, given the excessive amount of warcrimes they have commited. It is quite ridiculous in my opinion, because they are clearly intentional and pre-meditated.

Yes its obviously been a terrible campaign so far for the Saudis. Surely by initially engaging in the conflict they would have expected a military response so the current state of affairs is embarrassing for them. Obviously there is some risk in upping the stakes but I think if they fully commit with their entire military they have a good chance of retaking the lost territory. Surely if the forces against it are so strong they would have already eliminated the many opponents they have within Yemen? Even if this massively backfires and the Yemeni forces continue to win the battle then it is almost guarenteed the USA would intervene. This may actually benefit Saudi Arabia long term as the USA would likely eliminate and destroy the Yemeni army, advance into yemen, install some type of government and allow Saudi Arabia to achieve its pre war aims. I can't really see the USA allowing a large scale infiltration by a rogue army into one of its key allies to go unchallenged.
BlackFlags
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11/24/2015 8:41:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 8:19:28 PM, beng100 wrote:
Yes its obviously been a terrible campaign so far for the Saudis. Surely by initially engaging in the conflict they would have expected a military response so the current state of affairs is embarrassing for them.
They entered the conflict quite early. When a Houthis General boasted about being able to take Riyahd from Saudi Arabia, they laughed him off as a fool. Given their current situation, they are no longer laughing.

Obviously there is some risk in upping the stakes but I think if they fully commit with their entire military they have a good chance of retaking the lost territory.
I doubt it. Let us put this into perspective. The Yemeni Army and Republican Guard, post-coup, have to have at least 250,000 men left, whereas pre-coup the army had 400,000 men, most of which refused to defect and stayed loyal to Hadi.

Saudi Arabia has 170,000 personnel in their army. They have a shortage of funds to fight the war, and unlike the Yemeni Army, they do not have the privilege of simply abandoning all their military bases throughout the country to go fight in the hills. Nor is that option very desirable, given how many men they would be sending to their deaths.

The US doctrine has always been to throw men at the problem without any real major thought for tactics. I would love to see Saudi Arabia drop more men in Asir. Yemen has a lot more artillery and ballistic missiles to drop on them.

Surely if the forces against it are so strong they would have already eliminated the many opponents they have within Yemen?
Well like I said, the actual Yemeni Army has for the most part stayed out of the Southern Front, where all the loyalists reside. I think the grand strategy here is to fight a conventional war against Saudi Arabia in the north, while Houthis fights a people's war in the south.

Houthis alone isn't actually that strong. They are mostly armed former civilians, and are often quite ragged. They don't have the manpower or resources like the Yemeni Armed Forces to take back Yemen, but they do benefit from having some of the best commanders I have ever seen.

In the South, they are outnumbered by the loyalists, who are also better equipped than these rag tag militiamen, yet they have managed to hold their ground to outstanding effect. A better question is why the loyalists haven't managed to take Ta'izz?

Of course, we could also go into specifics of why the militi forces in the south have had less success. The south is flatter than the rest of the country, and the revolutionaries cannot benefit from the mountainous and forested terrain like they were doing in Sanaa and Sadah governates. Fighting tanks with infantry on open ground is suicide, and they also make easy targets for aircraft. At the moment they are content biding their time building defenses in heavily populated urban areas, where this disadvantage no longer exists.

Even if this massively backfires and the Yemeni forces continue to win the battle then it is almost guarenteed the USA would intervene.
I do not think that is a guarantee actually. As long as Houthis remains in the background, they do not have much to fear. Of course, if they wanted to go beyond Asir and further into Saudi Arabia, they might have problems given their proximity to Mecca and Western oil interests.

This may actually benefit Saudi Arabia long term as the USA would likely eliminate and destroy the Yemeni army, advance into yemen, install some type of government and allow Saudi Arabia to achieve its pre war aims.
I had a heavy debate on this. I think the US would suffer heavy losses in the same way Saudi Arabia is now. The Yemeni Army is huge and highly expierienced,naval and air power is useless in most zones of this conflict, and they would have to actually find a way to effectively land hundreds of thousands of soldiers into Yemen.

I can't really see the USA allowing a large scale infiltration by a rogue army into one of its key allies to go unchallenged.
Neither do I, but it goes without saying that actually entering Yemen is a no zone. It would result in military disasters, which go in hand with political and economic disasters.

Many people have been brainwashed that the US has uncontested military hegemony, but the truth is that our technology is not that much more effective (certainly much more expensive) than even third world nations, and is often trumped by Developed nations with non-dysfunctional defense industries.

We are living in an age of modern warfare, where small nations can assemble huge armies, and wars can only be won through use of total combined arms doctrine.
bsh1
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11/24/2015 10:15:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 7:42:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/24/2015 6:09:38 PM, beng100 wrote:
After numerous alleged incursions into Turkish airspace by Russian jets throughout its Syrian air canpaign and words of warning from Turkey, today turkey shot down a Russian plane it claims entered its airspace and had been warned ten times to leave. The two pilots allegedly parachuted to safety but their current location and condition is currently unknown. This development is clearly worrying. Vladimir Putin has claimed there will be serious consequences for Turkey. Thoughts?

I hope Russia bombs Turkey, and I am not even kidding. The Turkish government has been indirectly assisting ISIS in a number of respects, and Turks themselves have been doing business with ISIS since it has come into existence. The Turks, like the Saudis, are not particularly bothered by ISIS, and are quite happy to see what ISIS is doing to the Kurds.

And then you force NATO's hand.
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TBR
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11/24/2015 10:26:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 10:15:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/24/2015 7:42:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/24/2015 6:09:38 PM, beng100 wrote:
After numerous alleged incursions into Turkish airspace by Russian jets throughout its Syrian air canpaign and words of warning from Turkey, today turkey shot down a Russian plane it claims entered its airspace and had been warned ten times to leave. The two pilots allegedly parachuted to safety but their current location and condition is currently unknown. This development is clearly worrying. Vladimir Putin has claimed there will be serious consequences for Turkey. Thoughts?

I hope Russia bombs Turkey, and I am not even kidding. The Turkish government has been indirectly assisting ISIS in a number of respects, and Turks themselves have been doing business with ISIS since it has come into existence. The Turks, like the Saudis, are not particularly bothered by ISIS, and are quite happy to see what ISIS is doing to the Kurds.

And then you force NATO's hand.

Yea, this is all working great! Anyone wonder why I would like to stop playing this stupid game?
bsh1
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11/24/2015 10:28:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 10:26:43 PM, TBR wrote:
At 11/24/2015 10:15:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/24/2015 7:42:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/24/2015 6:09:38 PM, beng100 wrote:
After numerous alleged incursions into Turkish airspace by Russian jets throughout its Syrian air canpaign and words of warning from Turkey, today turkey shot down a Russian plane it claims entered its airspace and had been warned ten times to leave. The two pilots allegedly parachuted to safety but their current location and condition is currently unknown. This development is clearly worrying. Vladimir Putin has claimed there will be serious consequences for Turkey. Thoughts?

I hope Russia bombs Turkey, and I am not even kidding. The Turkish government has been indirectly assisting ISIS in a number of respects, and Turks themselves have been doing business with ISIS since it has come into existence. The Turks, like the Saudis, are not particularly bothered by ISIS, and are quite happy to see what ISIS is doing to the Kurds.

And then you force NATO's hand.

Yea, this is all working great! Anyone wonder why I would like to stop playing this stupid game?

Staying out of the Middle East wouldn't have stopped this incident.
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TBR
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11/24/2015 10:32:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 10:28:28 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/24/2015 10:26:43 PM, TBR wrote:
At 11/24/2015 10:15:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/24/2015 7:42:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/24/2015 6:09:38 PM, beng100 wrote:
After numerous alleged incursions into Turkish airspace by Russian jets throughout its Syrian air canpaign and words of warning from Turkey, today turkey shot down a Russian plane it claims entered its airspace and had been warned ten times to leave. The two pilots allegedly parachuted to safety but their current location and condition is currently unknown. This development is clearly worrying. Vladimir Putin has claimed there will be serious consequences for Turkey. Thoughts?

I hope Russia bombs Turkey, and I am not even kidding. The Turkish government has been indirectly assisting ISIS in a number of respects, and Turks themselves have been doing business with ISIS since it has come into existence. The Turks, like the Saudis, are not particularly bothered by ISIS, and are quite happy to see what ISIS is doing to the Kurds.

And then you force NATO's hand.

Yea, this is all working great! Anyone wonder why I would like to stop playing this stupid game?

Staying out of the Middle East wouldn't have stopped this incident.

Staying out the first time around, yea it would have.

An "event" with Russian forces was inevitable. pushing us around, putting us in places where we have to react is the tool of terrorists. Great job everyone. They win again.
TBR
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11/24/2015 10:34:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am not directing my frustration at you directly BSH1, just tossing my general frustration out there.

In the same march to war with the exact same "the sky is falling" attitude we have been running for decades in the M.E. Its is so past time to stop.
Yassine
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11/25/2015 5:16:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/24/2015 6:09:38 PM, beng100 wrote:
After numerous alleged incursions into Turkish airspace by Russian jets throughout its Syrian air canpaign and words of warning from Turkey, today turkey shot down a Russian plane it claims entered its airspace and had been warned ten times to leave. The two pilots allegedly parachuted to safety but their current location and condition is currently unknown. This development is clearly worrying. Vladimir Putin has claimed there will be serious consequences for Turkey. Thoughts?

- Too many allegations in one post!!!
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Vox_Veritas
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11/25/2015 6:29:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
UPDATE: Russia has deployed the S-400, an anti-aircraft missile system, to Syria.
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beng100
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11/26/2015 7:10:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/25/2015 6:29:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
UPDATE: Russia has deployed the S-400, an anti-aircraft missile system, to Syria.

I assume it is being moved with the motive of deterring Turkish planes from entering Syrian airspace?