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How to solve the Ukrainian conflict

beng100
Posts: 1,055
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11/26/2015 6:32:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
A low intensity war has been raging in south eastern Ukraine between separatist rebels with support from Russia and Ukrainian government forces and armed groups loyal to Ukraine. The region is generally quite evenly split between ethnic Ukrainians and Russians. However it is relatively clear a majority of residents would prefer the area to remain in Ukraine as opposed to becoming part of Russia or an independent country. The uprising by the separatist rebels occured shortly after the Russian occupation and annexation of the Crimea region of Ukraine. Despite the rather aggressive manner in which Russia annexed the Crimea it is fairly clear a majority of crimeans want to be Russians. Therefore I think the most rational solution to this conflict is for the west and Ukraine to agree to recognize and accept Crimea as part of Russia in return for Russia agreeing to end support for separatists in the donbass region of Ukraine and attempt to stop the activities of the rebels. If Russia agreed donbass was Ukrainian territory and ended its support of the rebels I'm fairly confident the rebels would either go back to Russia or give up the fight.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
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11/26/2015 7:44:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What you're suggesting (to let Russia have Crimea in exchange for letting East Ukraine go) is not a good policy in my opinion. First, this is the message that this would send Russia:
If Russia causes enough trouble it can make gains in exchange from ceasing that particular troublemaking behavior. Essentially this means Russia will be rewarded for bad behavior, and they'll learn this lesson immediately.

Second, this would set a bad precedent. Nations across the world would realize that they could get away with such theft of land, especially if the offender is a fairly powerful and/or influential nation. It'd be a return to the "law of the jungle" international order which was the norm prior to WWII.
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beng100
Posts: 1,055
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11/26/2015 11:19:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 7:44:34 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
What you're suggesting (to let Russia have Crimea in exchange for letting East Ukraine go) is not a good policy in my opinion. First, this is the message that this would send Russia:
If Russia causes enough trouble it can make gains in exchange from ceasing that particular troublemaking behavior. Essentially this means Russia will be rewarded for bad behavior, and they'll learn this lesson immediately.

Second, this would set a bad precedent. Nations across the world would realize that they could get away with such theft of land, especially if the offender is a fairly powerful and/or influential nation. It'd be a return to the "law of the jungle" international order which was the norm prior to WWII.

I understand your point. However this is a case where a majority of crimeans want to be Russian citizens and the prospects of Russia abandoning the territory incredibly low so it seems to me a good idea to use it to end an ongoing war that threatens Europe's security. I would then accept the newly defined Ukraine into NATO and pledge that it's borders are safe from further aggression.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
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11/26/2015 11:23:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 11:19:07 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 11/26/2015 7:44:34 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
What you're suggesting (to let Russia have Crimea in exchange for letting East Ukraine go) is not a good policy in my opinion. First, this is the message that this would send Russia:
If Russia causes enough trouble it can make gains in exchange from ceasing that particular troublemaking behavior. Essentially this means Russia will be rewarded for bad behavior, and they'll learn this lesson immediately.

Second, this would set a bad precedent. Nations across the world would realize that they could get away with such theft of land, especially if the offender is a fairly powerful and/or influential nation. It'd be a return to the "law of the jungle" international order which was the norm prior to WWII.

I understand your point. However this is a case where a majority of crimeans want to be Russian citizens and the prospects of Russia abandoning the territory incredibly low so it seems to me a good idea to use it to end an ongoing war that threatens Europe's security. I would then accept the newly defined Ukraine into NATO and pledge that it's borders are safe from further aggression.

Ukraine joining NATO is perhaps the least desirable outcome for Russia of all. I'm pretty sure they would go to war just to prevent this.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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58539672
Posts: 105
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11/27/2015 1:11:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 6:32:18 PM, beng100 wrote:
A low intensity war has been raging in south eastern Ukraine between separatist rebels with support from Russia and Ukrainian government forces and armed groups loyal to Ukraine. The region is generally quite evenly split between ethnic Ukrainians and Russians. However it is relatively clear a majority of residents would prefer the area to remain in Ukraine as opposed to becoming part of Russia or an independent country. The uprising by the separatist rebels occured shortly after the Russian occupation and annexation of the Crimea region of Ukraine. Despite the rather aggressive manner in which Russia annexed the Crimea it is fairly clear a majority of crimeans want to be Russians. Therefore I think the most rational solution to this conflict is for the west and Ukraine to agree to recognize and accept Crimea as part of Russia in return for Russia agreeing to end support for separatists in the donbass region of Ukraine and attempt to stop the activities of the rebels. If Russia agreed donbass was Ukrainian territory and ended its support of the rebels I'm fairly confident the rebels would either go back to Russia or give up the fight.

Russia has done stuff like this before in Georgia ( Abkhazia and South Ossetia). Their goal is to get as much of a buffer zone between them and NATO as humanly possible. They want an independent Donbass just as much as they wanted the Crimean peninsula. Russia will not accept your proposal without being forced to do so.
BlackFlags
Posts: 904
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11/27/2015 1:37:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Russia seems committed to creating another frozen conflict zone in the Donbass region. They already won Crimea, I see no reason for them to give up their newly controlled territory in Ukraine either.

To secure this region, they have sent a massive amount of resources into Donbass to completely shut down all offensive military operations by the Ukrainian government. Which is where you are wrong, there has been no state of low intensity warfare in the Donbass region. There has been only stalemate. The current borders of the Donbass rebel government are not going to be changing anytime soon unless all out conventional war happens, I guarantee it.
BlackFlags
Posts: 904
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11/27/2015 1:39:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/27/2015 1:11:04 AM, 58539672 wrote:
Russia has done stuff like this before in Georgia ( Abkhazia and South Ossetia). Their goal is to get as much of a buffer zone between them and NATO as humanly possible. They want an independent Donbass just as much as they wanted the Crimean peninsula. Russia will not accept your proposal without being forced to do so.
Yes, this is pretty much my post in different words
beng100
Posts: 1,055
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11/27/2015 8:30:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/26/2015 11:23:43 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/26/2015 11:19:07 PM, beng100 wrote:
At 11/26/2015 7:44:34 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
What you're suggesting (to let Russia have Crimea in exchange for letting East Ukraine go) is not a good policy in my opinion. First, this is the message that this would send Russia:
If Russia causes enough trouble it can make gains in exchange from ceasing that particular troublemaking behavior. Essentially this means Russia will be rewarded for bad behavior, and they'll learn this lesson immediately.

Second, this would set a bad precedent. Nations across the world would realize that they could get away with such theft of land, especially if the offender is a fairly powerful and/or influential nation. It'd be a return to the "law of the jungle" international order which was the norm prior to WWII.

I understand your point. However this is a case where a majority of crimeans want to be Russian citizens and the prospects of Russia abandoning the territory incredibly low so it seems to me a good idea to use it to end an ongoing war that threatens Europe's security. I would then accept the newly defined Ukraine into NATO and pledge that it's borders are safe from further aggression.

Ukraine joining NATO is perhaps the least desirable outcome for Russia of all. I'm pretty sure they would go to war just to prevent this.

Personally I doubt Russia would go to war over this but I see how it would provoke it. I think Ukraine has to become a NATO member though as it can't really be secure otherwise.
beng100
Posts: 1,055
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11/27/2015 8:34:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/27/2015 1:11:04 AM, 58539672 wrote:
At 11/26/2015 6:32:18 PM, beng100 wrote:
A low intensity war has been raging in south eastern Ukraine between separatist rebels with support from Russia and Ukrainian government forces and armed groups loyal to Ukraine. The region is generally quite evenly split between ethnic Ukrainians and Russians. However it is relatively clear a majority of residents would prefer the area to remain in Ukraine as opposed to becoming part of Russia or an independent country. The uprising by the separatist rebels occured shortly after the Russian occupation and annexation of the Crimea region of Ukraine. Despite the rather aggressive manner in which Russia annexed the Crimea it is fairly clear a majority of crimeans want to be Russians. Therefore I think the most rational solution to this conflict is for the west and Ukraine to agree to recognize and accept Crimea as part of Russia in return for Russia agreeing to end support for separatists in the donbass region of Ukraine and attempt to stop the activities of the rebels. If Russia agreed donbass was Ukrainian territory and ended its support of the rebels I'm fairly confident the rebels would either go back to Russia or give up the fight.

Russia has done stuff like this before in Georgia ( Abkhazia and South Ossetia). Their goal is to get as much of a buffer zone between them and NATO as humanly possible. They want an independent Donbass just as much as they wanted the Crimean peninsula. Russia will not accept your proposal without being forced to do so.

Maybe you are right but I think offering them that in negotiations may be a good start. Maybe offer them the chance of an independence referendum in the donbass region? If people vote to join Russia or independence in a free and fair referendum then I would respect and accept that. The key is ending the conflict.
58539672
Posts: 105
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11/28/2015 12:41:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago

Russia has done stuff like this before in Georgia ( Abkhazia and South Ossetia). Their goal is to get as much of a buffer zone between them and NATO as humanly possible. They want an independent Donbass just as much as they wanted the Crimean peninsula. Russia will not accept your proposal without being forced to do so.

Maybe you are right but I think offering them that in negotiations may be a good start. Maybe offer them the chance of an independence referendum in the donbass region? If people vote to join Russia or independence in a free and fair referendum then I would respect and accept that. The key is ending the conflict.

Russia has violated another nations sovereignty with their actions. Giving Russia exactly what they want is out of the question. Were Ukraine a NATO member, this would be a cause for war. Regardless of how this ends, Ukraine should join NATO to prevent illegal actions like these from happening again, because this will happen again if Russia is left unpunished.
stargate
Posts: 506
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11/28/2015 1:39:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Or have Ukriane join NATO, send military supplies and medical supplies and money to Ukriane. Then ask the rebles to surrender and accept at must similar inderpence. If they do not accept move it troops to surround them and push them back. Those rebles are puppets of Russia's. They will not stop unless we make them stop, we should also make them stop in Georgia.
stargate
Posts: 506
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11/28/2015 1:41:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
We should also back Georgia and send troops to Georgia and build a border fence there due to what Russia does. So stop there advances in Georgia and Ukriane. Try together both to join NATO.