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States ought possess Nukes?

PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 2:37:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
i want to see what other peoples opinions or facts on this case are before I turn my case in once and for all. so what is your opinion on the side of States ought possess Nuclear Weapons? under the topic of
Resolved: States ought not possess Nuclear Weapons.
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 2:52:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Bump!
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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10/2/2010 4:06:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The US is hypocritical in preaching that other countries shouldn't have nukes while they have one of the largest supplies.

That is all. The end.
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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10/2/2010 4:07:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/2/2010 2:37:34 PM, PiperPhoenix wrote:
i want to see what other peoples opinions or facts on this case are before I turn my case in once and for all. so what is your opinion on the side of States ought possess Nuclear Weapons? under the topic of
Resolved: States ought not possess Nuclear Weapons.

Pro. Usage of Nuclear weapons cannot be justified and MAD is largley mythical in the modern world.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 4:08:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ok but what do you think would happen should say all the major powers In the world come together and get rid of their N.W.?
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
TPF
Posts: 98
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10/2/2010 4:14:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/2/2010 4:08:41 PM, PiperPhoenix wrote:
Ok but what do you think would happen should say all the major powers In the world come together and get rid of their N.W.?

That would be dumb.

Again, had nukes and MAD not existed, the Cold War would have went hot.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 4:23:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ya but forget about the past for a minute and just think about what might happen if all the major players like the U.S., Russia, the U.K., Etc. Etc. Were to come together and get rid of their N.W. Completely then disregarding the cold war, Cuban missile crisis, mutual assured destruction and all of that and the past give me a hypothetical as to what you think might happen!
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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10/2/2010 4:33:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/2/2010 4:14:22 PM, TPF wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:08:41 PM, PiperPhoenix wrote:
Ok but what do you think would happen should say all the major powers In the world come together and get rid of their N.W.?

That would be dumb.

Again, had nukes and MAD not existed, the Cold War would have went hot.

At 10/2/2010 4:14:22 PM, TPF wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:08:41 PM, PiperPhoenix wrote:
Ok but what do you think would happen should say all the major powers In the world come together and get rid of their N.W.?

That would be dumb.

Again, had nukes and MAD not existed, the Cold War would have went hot.

MAD was designed on the false premise that all involved were rational state actors. And even without nuclear weapons, no modern superpower is stupid enough to attack another super power. They are too economically dependent.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 4:33:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Wow ok then... I was thinking more along the lines of any of the smaller countries who still had N.W. Might end up putting them on the Black Market were Terrorists could get them... But that works too... I guess...
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
TPF
Posts: 98
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10/2/2010 4:39:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Even if terrorists had one dirty bomb and detonated it, nuking wherever the terrorists came from would be a disproportionate response.

Regarding MAD and rational state actors, I take the Cold War as proof MAD worked.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 4:46:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hey! Come on forget about the cold war, MAD, the Cuban missile crisis, and leave all of that in the past for a minute. Give me an answer that does not involve anything like that or about it. I know hypotheticals aren't supposed to be in your vocals as debaters but still give me a hypothetical of what you think might happen in your own words without involving any of that stuff!!!!!!!
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 4:57:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Correct! Now you're caching on!
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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10/2/2010 5:10:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/2/2010 4:39:51 PM, TPF wrote:

Regarding MAD and rational state actors, I take the Cold War as proof MAD worked.

Not everyone who smokes gets cancer.

Mr. President, Nuclear launch detected originated from China-Russian border, what are your orders?

Alternatively, replace China-Russian border with stealth attack of unknown origin, or strike from stealth bomber of unknown origin.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 5:16:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What?????
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
TPF
Posts: 98
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10/2/2010 5:24:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/2/2010 5:10:23 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:39:51 PM, TPF wrote:

Regarding MAD and rational state actors, I take the Cold War as proof MAD worked.

Not everyone who smokes gets cancer.

Mr. President, Nuclear launch detected originated from China-Russian border, what are your orders?

Alternatively, replace China-Russian border with stealth attack of unknown origin, or strike from stealth bomber of unknown origin.

This does not disprove MAD in any way, shape, or form.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 5:26:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
And I don't seem to understand what was the point of that post?
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 5:50:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Anyway Think of the situation like this... The major powers of the world have just announced that on thAt very morning they got together and destroyed every last single one of their n.w. And signed a treaty saying they would never build another one. What would be:
The first thing you said?
The first thing you thought?
The first thing you worried about?
The first thing you'd be happy about?
So on and so forth.
Feel free to add anything I forgot.
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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10/2/2010 5:53:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/2/2010 4:33:05 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:14:22 PM, TPF wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:08:41 PM, PiperPhoenix wrote:
Ok but what do you think would happen should say all the major powers In the world come together and get rid of their N.W.?

That would be dumb.

Again, had nukes and MAD not existed, the Cold War would have went hot.

At 10/2/2010 4:14:22 PM, TPF wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:08:41 PM, PiperPhoenix wrote:
Ok but what do you think would happen should say all the major powers In the world come together and get rid of their N.W.?

That would be dumb.

Again, had nukes and MAD not existed, the Cold War would have went hot.

MAD was designed on the false premise that all involved were rational state actors. And even without nuclear weapons, no modern superpower is stupid enough to attack another super power. They are too economically dependent.

I don't think you understand how many times you just contradicted yourself
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
TPF
Posts: 98
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10/2/2010 5:56:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/2/2010 5:53:09 PM, m93samman wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:33:05 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:14:22 PM, TPF wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:08:41 PM, PiperPhoenix wrote:
Ok but what do you think would happen should say all the major powers In the world come together and get rid of their N.W.?

That would be dumb.

Again, had nukes and MAD not existed, the Cold War would have went hot.

At 10/2/2010 4:14:22 PM, TPF wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:08:41 PM, PiperPhoenix wrote:
Ok but what do you think would happen should say all the major powers In the world come together and get rid of their N.W.?

That would be dumb.

Again, had nukes and MAD not existed, the Cold War would have went hot.

MAD was designed on the false premise that all involved were rational state actors. And even without nuclear weapons, no modern superpower is stupid enough to attack another super power. They are too economically dependent.

I don't think you understand how many times you just contradicted yourself

Are you talking about me or Sam?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/2/2010 5:56:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/2/2010 4:07:46 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
Pro. Usage of Nuclear weapons cannot be justified and MAD is largley mythical in the modern world.
Do you know that even a regional nuclear war between India and Pakistan can result in disasters for the rest of the world?
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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10/2/2010 5:56:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Problems of nuke weapon possession:

1) Undue influence of some countries over others
2) Potential of terrorist take over in the case of countries with unstable governments; in which case they can get their hands on nukes
3) Stockpiling wars between nations, i.e. whoever can stack up more wins- very costly, potential radioactive spillage, etc.

Benefits:

1) Prevention of war
2) Long range defenses (just in case)
3) Self-perpetuating deterrence of war via stockpiling wars (refutes point 3 of harms)

Those are the first things that come to my mind
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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10/2/2010 5:57:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/2/2010 5:56:07 PM, TPF wrote:
At 10/2/2010 5:53:09 PM, m93samman wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:33:05 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:14:22 PM, TPF wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:08:41 PM, PiperPhoenix wrote:
Ok but what do you think would happen should say all the major powers In the world come together and get rid of their N.W.?

That would be dumb.

Again, had nukes and MAD not existed, the Cold War would have went hot.

At 10/2/2010 4:14:22 PM, TPF wrote:
At 10/2/2010 4:08:41 PM, PiperPhoenix wrote:
Ok but what do you think would happen should say all the major powers In the world come together and get rid of their N.W.?

That would be dumb.

Again, had nukes and MAD not existed, the Cold War would have went hot.

MAD was designed on the false premise that all involved were rational state actors. And even without nuclear weapons, no modern superpower is stupid enough to attack another super power. They are too economically dependent.

I don't think you understand how many times you just contradicted yourself

Are you talking about me or Sam?

Sam of course. His very last paragraph
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 6:05:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Wow that's really good! Thanks! Also the damage they do is not only limited to the immediate battle ground (ground zero)!
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 6:20:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Anything else?
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.
PiperPhoenix
Posts: 168
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10/2/2010 6:34:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm not I already did it! Thank you very much though! I just happen to want and need to get other peoples points of view on the subject before I turn it in on tuesday. So thank you very much to everyone with an opinion on the topic you've been nothing but interesting and very helpful to opening the debate to a lot of new view points for me that I'd never really thought about before. ;-)
Demons run when a good man goes to war;
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies,
Night will fall and the dark will rise,
When a good man goes to war,
Demons run, but count the cost,
The battle's won, but the child is lost,
When a good man goes to war.