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Philippines v. China Thread

Vox_Veritas
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12/1/2015 2:53:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
China has invoked its "nine-dash line" and laid claim to almost the entire South China Sea. They're backing this claim up by undergoing a massive island reclamation project on coral reefs in the sea, then putting military bases on the islands.
The Government of the Philippines doesn't like the way that this is going and it has filed a lawsuit against the PRC in the Permanent Court of Arbitration (AKA the International Court AKA The Hague). On October 29 the Court ruled that it had jurisdiction in this case and thus the Court case "Philippines v. China" was born.
From November 24 to November 30 the legal representatives of the Philippines made the case that China's nine-dash line is a violation of international law.
As of right currently, the Chinese have refused to recognize the case's legitimacy. The judges overseeing the case have given China until January 1 to make its case. It's currently unclear what the consequences will be if China doesn't meet this deadline.
Expect this thread to be updated whenever there are new developments on the case and whenever the Court issues its ruling. Thank you.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,072
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7/12/2016 12:57:31 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Ladies and gentlemen...THE PHILIPPINES HAS WON! The Permanent Court of Arbitration not only ruled that China's nine-dash line is invalid but that The Philippines has exclusive territorial rights to an area contained within the South China Sea called the "West Philippine Sea".
Article here:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net...
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
slo1
Posts: 4,333
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7/12/2016 1:41:36 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 12:57:31 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen...THE PHILIPPINES HAS WON! The Permanent Court of Arbitration not only ruled that China's nine-dash line is invalid but that The Philippines has exclusive territorial rights to an area contained within the South China Sea called the "West Philippine Sea".
Article here:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net...

This is a very interesting situation. The tribunal is legitimate arbitrator that falls under the Law of the Sea treaty, which China ratified in 1996. They did not participate in the arbitration nor do they recognize the ruling.

The US has never ratified the treaty, but we obviously have an interest in doing what we can to stop China taking control of these areas. The sixty million dollar question is what do we or what does the world do about it. These type of conflicts have ways of escalating into warefare. What do we do?
Vox_Veritas
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7/12/2016 3:12:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 1:41:36 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/12/2016 12:57:31 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen...THE PHILIPPINES HAS WON! The Permanent Court of Arbitration not only ruled that China's nine-dash line is invalid but that The Philippines has exclusive territorial rights to an area contained within the South China Sea called the "West Philippine Sea".
Article here:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net...

This is a very interesting situation. The tribunal is legitimate arbitrator that falls under the Law of the Sea treaty, which China ratified in 1996. They did not participate in the arbitration nor do they recognize the ruling.

The US has never ratified the treaty, but we obviously have an interest in doing what we can to stop China taking control of these areas. The sixty million dollar question is what do we or what does the world do about it. These type of conflicts have ways of escalating into warefare. What do we do?

Well, even if China ignores the ruling, they'll actually be able to get away with it if The Philippines agrees to also ignore the ruling and settle the dispute through bilateral talks. But if The Philippines takes a hardline stance against China on the issue, China's defiance of the ruling should earn The Philippines some major international backing.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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triangle.128k
Posts: 3,642
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7/12/2016 4:42:48 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/1/2015 2:53:50 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
China has invoked its "nine-dash line" and laid claim to almost the entire South China Sea. They're backing this claim up by undergoing a massive island reclamation project on coral reefs in the sea, then putting military bases on the islands.
The Government of the Philippines doesn't like the way that this is going and it has filed a lawsuit against the PRC in the Permanent Court of Arbitration (AKA the International Court AKA The Hague). On October 29 the Court ruled that it had jurisdiction in this case and thus the Court case "Philippines v. China" was born.
From November 24 to November 30 the legal representatives of the Philippines made the case that China's nine-dash line is a violation of international law.
As of right currently, the Chinese have refused to recognize the case's legitimacy. The judges overseeing the case have given China until January 1 to make its case. It's currently unclear what the consequences will be if China doesn't meet this deadline.
Expect this thread to be updated whenever there are new developments on the case and whenever the Court issues its ruling. Thank you.

China's claims are too ridiculous, they need to at least cut it. They can't just claim the whole sea.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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7/12/2016 4:44:41 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 3:12:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/12/2016 1:41:36 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/12/2016 12:57:31 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen...THE PHILIPPINES HAS WON! The Permanent Court of Arbitration not only ruled that China's nine-dash line is invalid but that The Philippines has exclusive territorial rights to an area contained within the South China Sea called the "West Philippine Sea".
Article here:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net...

This is a very interesting situation. The tribunal is legitimate arbitrator that falls under the Law of the Sea treaty, which China ratified in 1996. They did not participate in the arbitration nor do they recognize the ruling.

The US has never ratified the treaty, but we obviously have an interest in doing what we can to stop China taking control of these areas. The sixty million dollar question is what do we or what does the world do about it. These type of conflicts have ways of escalating into warefare. What do we do?

Well, even if China ignores the ruling, they'll actually be able to get away with it if The Philippines agrees to also ignore the ruling and settle the dispute through bilateral talks. But if The Philippines takes a hardline stance against China on the issue, China's defiance of the ruling should earn The Philippines some major international backing.

Hopefully, Duterte will find it's in the Philippines' prudential interests to engage in bilateral talks, since the ASEAN (I believe) does want to maintain a better relationship with us for trade. Warfare will only damage both sides.

If he does, then I certainly prefer him to Aquino, who not only insisted on Huangyan Island being theirs but also killed our fellow citizens because of his incompetence back in 2010.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,072
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7/12/2016 7:57:01 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 4:44:41 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 7/12/2016 3:12:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/12/2016 1:41:36 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/12/2016 12:57:31 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen...THE PHILIPPINES HAS WON! The Permanent Court of Arbitration not only ruled that China's nine-dash line is invalid but that The Philippines has exclusive territorial rights to an area contained within the South China Sea called the "West Philippine Sea".
Article here:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net...

This is a very interesting situation. The tribunal is legitimate arbitrator that falls under the Law of the Sea treaty, which China ratified in 1996. They did not participate in the arbitration nor do they recognize the ruling.

The US has never ratified the treaty, but we obviously have an interest in doing what we can to stop China taking control of these areas. The sixty million dollar question is what do we or what does the world do about it. These type of conflicts have ways of escalating into warefare. What do we do?

Well, even if China ignores the ruling, they'll actually be able to get away with it if The Philippines agrees to also ignore the ruling and settle the dispute through bilateral talks. But if The Philippines takes a hardline stance against China on the issue, China's defiance of the ruling should earn The Philippines some major international backing.

Hopefully, Duterte will find it's in the Philippines' prudential interests to engage in bilateral talks, since the ASEAN (I believe) does want to maintain a better relationship with us for trade. Warfare will only damage both sides.

Why are bilateral talks better than settling the matter in court?

If he does, then I certainly prefer him to Aquino, who not only insisted on Huangyan Island being theirs but also killed our fellow citizens because of his incompetence back in 2010.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,072
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7/12/2016 8:05:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Personally, I hate the idea of settling this through bilateral talks. China is in a position of overwhelming strength and leverage compared to The Philippines, so in bilateral talks they'd be able to force unfair concessions from The Philippines in exchange for doing that thing which they should've been doing all along (respecting international law and The Philippine's territorial integrity).
The way that I see it, China is in the wrong and The Philippines should not have to give any concessions whatsoever in exchange for China's respecting its territorial integrity. In a court case China can be forced to do the right thing through strong international pressure, no unfair concessions from The Philippines required.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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slo1
Posts: 4,333
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7/13/2016 12:02:56 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 8:05:11 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Personally, I hate the idea of settling this through bilateral talks. China is in a position of overwhelming strength and leverage compared to The Philippines, so in bilateral talks they'd be able to force unfair concessions from The Philippines in exchange for doing that thing which they should've been doing all along (respecting international law and The Philippine's territorial integrity).
The way that I see it, China is in the wrong and The Philippines should not have to give any concessions whatsoever in exchange for China's respecting its territorial integrity. In a court case China can be forced to do the right thing through strong international pressure, no unfair concessions from The Philippines required.

The biggest question is how far will the international community go? Would they be willing to sanction China? It can't be done via the UN as they have a seat on the security council. There could be a group of Nations that just join for that purpose, but that would do damage to global economics if sanctions were so deep to get China to relent.

I predict the can will keep being kicked down the road. The US will float it's carriers though south sea to let them know we are there, but this is what sovereignty means. If nations don't honor their treaties only force will get them there. This has potential to blow up.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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7/16/2016 4:26:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 7:57:01 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/12/2016 4:44:41 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 7/12/2016 3:12:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/12/2016 1:41:36 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/12/2016 12:57:31 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen...THE PHILIPPINES HAS WON! The Permanent Court of Arbitration not only ruled that China's nine-dash line is invalid but that The Philippines has exclusive territorial rights to an area contained within the South China Sea called the "West Philippine Sea".
Article here:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net...

This is a very interesting situation. The tribunal is legitimate arbitrator that falls under the Law of the Sea treaty, which China ratified in 1996. They did not participate in the arbitration nor do they recognize the ruling.

The US has never ratified the treaty, but we obviously have an interest in doing what we can to stop China taking control of these areas. The sixty million dollar question is what do we or what does the world do about it. These type of conflicts have ways of escalating into warefare. What do we do?

Well, even if China ignores the ruling, they'll actually be able to get away with it if The Philippines agrees to also ignore the ruling and settle the dispute through bilateral talks. But if The Philippines takes a hardline stance against China on the issue, China's defiance of the ruling should earn The Philippines some major international backing.

Hopefully, Duterte will find it's in the Philippines' prudential interests to engage in bilateral talks, since the ASEAN (I believe) does want to maintain a better relationship with us for trade. Warfare will only damage both sides.

Why are bilateral talks better than settling the matter in court?
Because we have never trusted the Hague to make a fair decision, and will not trust it after this ruling either.

If he does, then I certainly prefer him to Aquino, who not only insisted on Huangyan Island being theirs but also killed our fellow citizens because of his incompetence back in 2010.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/16/2016 6:32:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Technically the islands did belong to china. But china was too weak to assert protection over them so everyone ignored that. The claim was made before the United Nations Convention on the law of the sea. Now that china is powerful enough to protect their islands they want it back. It's technically like a big brother forgetting about a toy and the little brother takes it. Then the big brother remembers and wants it back. The islands are rightfully chinas.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,072
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7/16/2016 7:32:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 6:32:03 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
Technically the islands did belong to china. But china was too weak to assert protection over them so everyone ignored that. The claim was made before the United Nations Convention on the law of the sea. Now that china is powerful enough to protect their islands they want it back. It's technically like a big brother forgetting about a toy and the little brother takes it. Then the big brother remembers and wants it back. The islands are rightfully chinas.

Countries lose land all the time. Spain used to control most of the Americas, and for a period of 4 years the U.S. owned Cuba. 2000 years ago Italy ruled the entire Mediterranean region. 3500 years ago Egypt ruled modern day Israel.
A very long time ago China may have owned the South China Sea (their claims are dubious at best) but at the time there weren't modern nation states like The Philippines, Taiwan, and the likes to assert sovereignty over parts of the sea.
The South China Sea is a crowded region with many different countries, and they are all as equally entitled to the sea as China is. China, in short, must learn how to share.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/16/2016 7:51:04 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 7:32:43 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:32:03 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
Technically the islands did belong to china. But china was too weak to assert protection over them so everyone ignored that. The claim was made before the United Nations Convention on the law of the sea. Now that china is powerful enough to protect their islands they want it back. It's technically like a big brother forgetting about a toy and the little brother takes it. Then the big brother remembers and wants it back. The islands are rightfully chinas.

Countries lose land all the time. Spain used to control most of the Americas, and for a period of 4 years the U.S. owned Cuba. 2000 years ago Italy ruled the entire Mediterranean region. 3500 years ago Egypt ruled modern day Israel.
A very long time ago China may have owned the South China Sea (their claims are dubious at best) but at the time there weren't modern nation states like The Philippines, Taiwan, and the likes to assert sovereignty over parts of the sea.
The South China Sea is a crowded region with many different countries, and they are all as equally entitled to the sea as China is. China, in short, must learn how to share.

Yes I do agree that China has to learn how to share. If they did try to take it by force, things could get messy.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
CharlesGrey
Posts: 20
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7/17/2016 9:55:53 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 4:44:41 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 7/12/2016 3:12:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/12/2016 1:41:36 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/12/2016 12:57:31 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen...THE PHILIPPINES HAS WON! The Permanent Court of Arbitration not only ruled that China's nine-dash line is invalid but that The Philippines has exclusive territorial rights to an area contained within the South China Sea called the "West Philippine Sea".
Article here:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net...

This is a very interesting situation. The tribunal is legitimate arbitrator that falls under the Law of the Sea treaty, which China ratified in 1996. They did not participate in the arbitration nor do they recognize the ruling.

The US has never ratified the treaty, but we obviously have an interest in doing what we can to stop China taking control of these areas. The sixty million dollar question is what do we or what does the world do about it. These type of conflicts have ways of escalating into warefare. What do we do?

Well, even if China ignores the ruling, they'll actually be able to get away with it if The Philippines agrees to also ignore the ruling and settle the dispute through bilateral talks. But if The Philippines takes a hardline stance against China on the issue, China's defiance of the ruling should earn The Philippines some major international backing.

Hopefully, Duterte will find it's in the Philippines' prudential interests to engage in bilateral talks, since the ASEAN (I believe) does want to maintain a better relationship with us for trade. Warfare will only damage both sides.

If he does, then I certainly prefer him to Aquino, who not only insisted on Huangyan Island being theirs but also killed our fellow citizens because of his incompetence back in 2010.

Why would they engage in bilateral talks? The matter is legally settled and China has shown itself unwilling to make any concrete offers to the Philippines short of threats.
slo1
Posts: 4,333
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7/17/2016 4:26:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 9:55:53 AM, CharlesGrey wrote:
At 7/12/2016 4:44:41 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 7/12/2016 3:12:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/12/2016 1:41:36 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/12/2016 12:57:31 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen...THE PHILIPPINES HAS WON! The Permanent Court of Arbitration not only ruled that China's nine-dash line is invalid but that The Philippines has exclusive territorial rights to an area contained within the South China Sea called the "West Philippine Sea".
Article here:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net...

This is a very interesting situation. The tribunal is legitimate arbitrator that falls under the Law of the Sea treaty, which China ratified in 1996. They did not participate in the arbitration nor do they recognize the ruling.

The US has never ratified the treaty, but we obviously have an interest in doing what we can to stop China taking control of these areas. The sixty million dollar question is what do we or what does the world do about it. These type of conflicts have ways of escalating into warefare. What do we do?

Well, even if China ignores the ruling, they'll actually be able to get away with it if The Philippines agrees to also ignore the ruling and settle the dispute through bilateral talks. But if The Philippines takes a hardline stance against China on the issue, China's defiance of the ruling should earn The Philippines some major international backing.

Hopefully, Duterte will find it's in the Philippines' prudential interests to engage in bilateral talks, since the ASEAN (I believe) does want to maintain a better relationship with us for trade. Warfare will only damage both sides.

If he does, then I certainly prefer him to Aquino, who not only insisted on Huangyan Island being theirs but also killed our fellow citizens because of his incompetence back in 2010.

Why would they engage in bilateral talks? The matter is legally settled and China has shown itself unwilling to make any concrete offers to the Philippines short of threats.

They have to. They don't have the might to enforce the ruling. China has a seat on the security Council so that rules out UN doing anything meaningful. The president of Philippines knows this and has made statements that they don't want to wave this ruling in China's face so they can negotiate a solution.

Mark my words this issue will fester for decades and China will control the South China Sea.

The US should use Taiwan as leverage. We have maintained a policy that we would come to Taiwan's aid should China try to take over, but we have had very limited arms sales. We start selling Taiwan high tech missile defense and other high tech weapons unless China complies to their treaty and this ruling.
Death23
Posts: 781
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7/18/2016 10:26:28 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 1:41:36 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/12/2016 12:57:31 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen...THE PHILIPPINES HAS WON! The Permanent Court of Arbitration not only ruled that China's nine-dash line is invalid but that The Philippines has exclusive territorial rights to an area contained within the South China Sea called the "West Philippine Sea".
Article here:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net...

This is a very interesting situation. The tribunal is legitimate arbitrator that falls under the Law of the Sea treaty, which China ratified in 1996. They did not participate in the arbitration nor do they recognize the ruling.

The US has never ratified the treaty, but we obviously have an interest in doing what we can to stop China taking control of these areas. The sixty million dollar question is what do we or what does the world do about it. These type of conflicts have ways of escalating into warefare. What do we do?

We exercise our right to withdraw from the mutual defense treaties which obligate us to defend the phillipines and others. Then we dont have to do anything.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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7/23/2016 5:18:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 9:55:53 AM, CharlesGrey wrote:
At 7/12/2016 4:44:41 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 7/12/2016 3:12:44 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/12/2016 1:41:36 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/12/2016 12:57:31 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen...THE PHILIPPINES HAS WON! The Permanent Court of Arbitration not only ruled that China's nine-dash line is invalid but that The Philippines has exclusive territorial rights to an area contained within the South China Sea called the "West Philippine Sea".
Article here:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net...

This is a very interesting situation. The tribunal is legitimate arbitrator that falls under the Law of the Sea treaty, which China ratified in 1996. They did not participate in the arbitration nor do they recognize the ruling.

The US has never ratified the treaty, but we obviously have an interest in doing what we can to stop China taking control of these areas. The sixty million dollar question is what do we or what does the world do about it. These type of conflicts have ways of escalating into warefare. What do we do?

Well, even if China ignores the ruling, they'll actually be able to get away with it if The Philippines agrees to also ignore the ruling and settle the dispute through bilateral talks. But if The Philippines takes a hardline stance against China on the issue, China's defiance of the ruling should earn The Philippines some major international backing.

Hopefully, Duterte will find it's in the Philippines' prudential interests to engage in bilateral talks, since the ASEAN (I believe) does want to maintain a better relationship with us for trade. Warfare will only damage both sides.

If he does, then I certainly prefer him to Aquino, who not only insisted on Huangyan Island being theirs but also killed our fellow citizens because of his incompetence back in 2010.

Why would they engage in bilateral talks?
Because we asked nicely?
The matter is legally settled
It was only 'settled' by a panel of judges selected by a Japanese person - someone from a nation who is *totally* neutral when it comes to territorial disputes with China. The judges were from a temporary tribunal which paid for the services of the PCA and ruled at the Philippines' unilateral request.
and China has shown itself unwilling to make any concrete offers to the Philippines short of threats.
So asking someone to talk about an issue is a threat?
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...