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Reasoning
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10/8/2010 12:25:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The conservative and the libertarian are enemies, they are at opposite poles. Between the two there can be no reconciliation.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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10/8/2010 12:31:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:25:48 AM, Reasoning wrote:
The conservative and the libertarian are enemies, they are at opposite poles. Between the two there can be no reconciliation.

I always see Liberalism, Consevatism and Libertarianism as a ven diagram. There certainly seems to be an overlap between Conservatism and Libertarianism in the Republican party.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/8/2010 12:33:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:31:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:25:48 AM, Reasoning wrote:
The conservative and the libertarian are enemies, they are at opposite poles. Between the two there can be no reconciliation.

I always see Liberalism, Consevatism and Libertarianism as a ven diagram. There certainly seems to be an overlap between Conservatism and Libertarianism in the Republican party.

And an overlap between conservatism and liberalism... and libertarianism and anarchism... and liberalism and libertarianism... and anarchism and communism... etc.
President of DDO
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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10/8/2010 12:33:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:31:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:25:48 AM, Reasoning wrote:
The conservative and the libertarian are enemies, they are at opposite poles. Between the two there can be no reconciliation.

I always see Liberalism, Consevatism and Libertarianism as a ven diagram. There certainly seems to be an overlap between Conservatism and Libertarianism in the Republican party.

True conservatism and libertarianism are compatible, but there is no overlap between the Republican Party and libertarianism.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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10/8/2010 12:35:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Conservatism, the dogmatic hold to the ways of old must never be confused with Liberation. It baffles me how it could.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Cerebral_Narcissist
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10/8/2010 12:36:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:33:17 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:31:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:25:48 AM, Reasoning wrote:
The conservative and the libertarian are enemies, they are at opposite poles. Between the two there can be no reconciliation.

I always see Liberalism, Consevatism and Libertarianism as a ven diagram. There certainly seems to be an overlap between Conservatism and Libertarianism in the Republican party.

And an overlap between conservatism and liberalism... and libertarianism and anarchism... and liberalism and libertarianism... and anarchism and communism... etc.

Feh, anarchism is not an ideology, but yea apart from that I agree.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Reasoning
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10/8/2010 12:37:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:33:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
True conservatism and libertarianism are compatible,

False.

Conservatism is the enemy of liberty. It always has been and always will be.

Bastiat, Molinari, our liberal colleagues always new conservatism to be their foe.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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10/8/2010 12:38:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:37:56 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:33:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
True conservatism and libertarianism are compatible,

False.

Conservatism is the enemy of liberty. It always has been and always will be.

Bastiat, Molinari, our liberal colleagues always new conservatism to be their foe.

Did you read that chapter of Democracy: The God That Failed yet?
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Reasoning
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10/8/2010 12:40:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:33:17 AM, theLwerd wrote:
And an overlap between conservatism and liberalism...

The use of conservative means to attain liberal ends is called State Socialism.

and libertarianism and anarchism...

Libertarianism is anarchism.

and liberalism and libertarianism...

Liberalism, in the best sense of the term, is libertarianism.

All of history has been the ongoing battle between Authority and Liberty and the conservative has always sided with Authority. Indeed, that is what makes them conservative.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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10/8/2010 12:41:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:36:24 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Feh, anarchism is not an ideology, but yea apart from that I agree.

Conservatism is not an ideology.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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10/8/2010 12:46:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:42:27 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
If we were in a state of Liberty, wouldn't it be really sh*tty to be anything other than a conservative?

Nope, because conservatives adhere to traditional values, generally authoritarianism, due to a primitive opposition to any sort of change, not because they are actually intelligent.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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10/8/2010 12:46:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:33:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
there is no overlap between the Republican Party and libertarianism.

Ron Paul
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
TPF
Posts: 98
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10/8/2010 12:48:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:46:53 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:33:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
there is no overlap between the Republican Party and libertarianism.

Ron Paul

Ron Paul is not ancap. Isn't any sort of involvement with the state antithesis to ancaps?
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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10/8/2010 12:50:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:46:53 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:33:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
there is no overlap between the Republican Party and libertarianism.

Ron Paul
When I say Republican Party, I mean the platform and ideology of the party itself, not the ideology of every single individual member.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Reasoning
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10/8/2010 12:51:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:48:37 AM, TPF wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:46:53 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:33:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
there is no overlap between the Republican Party and libertarianism.

Ron Paul

Ron Paul is not ancap.

That's not what Conza88 told me.

Isn't any sort of involvement with the state antithesis to ancaps?

Nope. Murray Rothbard was quite active in the political process.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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10/8/2010 6:27:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Republicans and democrats have more in common with each other than libertarians. They both support at least 50% of the current welfare/warfare state.
Things that are so interesting:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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10/8/2010 6:29:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:25:48 AM, Reasoning wrote:
The conservative and the libertarian are enemies, they are at opposite poles. Between the two there can be no reconciliation.

You are wrong.
The libertarian is the true conservative.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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10/8/2010 6:51:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:30:55 AM, TPF wrote:
I notice that you constantly post assertions but never bother to back them up or debate any dissenting assertions.:

^ THIS ^
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/8/2010 6:53:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:31:14 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:25:48 AM, Reasoning wrote:
The conservative and the libertarian are enemies, they are at opposite poles. Between the two there can be no reconciliation.

I always see Liberalism, Consevatism and Libertarianism as a ven diagram. There certainly seems to be an overlap between Conservatism and Libertarianism in the Republican party.:

Only on fiscal issues, and even then most Republican also spend taxes on things that shouldn't be payed for by taxes. Modern day Republicans are just as financially irresponsible as Democrats are.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/8/2010 6:57:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
True conservatism and libertarianism are compatible, but there is no overlap between the Republican Party and libertarianism.:

Or the same could be said that Classical liberalism and libertarianism are compatible, but not the Democrat Party and libertarianism.

Whatever the case may be, there's bound to be some parallels when juxtaposing almost any ideology, as TheLwerd succinctly summarized.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/8/2010 6:58:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:35:11 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Conservatism, the dogmatic hold to the ways of old must never be confused with Liberation. It baffles me how it could.:

"The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." -- G.K. Chesterton
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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10/8/2010 7:13:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The use of conservative means to attain liberal ends is called State Socialism.:

There's as big of a difference between conservatives and Neo-conservatives as there are with classical liberals and Progressives. Their distinctions should be taken in to consideration.

Libertarianism is anarchism.:

No, it isn't. Is a minarchist the same as an anarchist? There's a huge disparity between a small, yet efficient government, versus no government whatsoever.

This is the part of the conversation where you quote bomb the f*ck out of us.

Liberalism, in the best sense of the term, is libertarianism.:

Classical liberalism, yes. But upwards of 95% of the people who claim a liberal ideology are really all about state socialism, so six of one, half-dozen of the other, eh?

All of history has been the ongoing battle between Authority and Liberty and the conservative has always sided with Authority. Indeed, that is what makes them conservative.:

You're painting with an awfully big brush, as if all people who self-identify as conservatives just want to "keep the man down." 95% of people who identify as conservatives are not in positions of power, so why would they intentionally seek to oppress themselves?

Yes, we need to be mindful of authoritarians and mindful of how conservatives can be manipulated in to bad policies, but you making sweeping allegations makes me mindful of you and your own penchant for extremism.

Sounds a whole lot like the tyranny of the minority to me.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Danielle
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10/8/2010 7:50:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:40:13 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:33:17 AM, theLwerd wrote:
And an overlap between conservatism and liberalism...

The use of conservative means to attain liberal ends is called State Socialism.

And yet conservatism and liberalism are not the same, but have overlapping tendencies.

and libertarianism and anarchism...

Libertarianism is anarchism.

It's more like minarchy.

Liberalism, in the best sense of the term, is libertarianism.

According to you...

All of history has been the ongoing battle between Authority and Liberty and the conservative has always sided with Authority. Indeed, that is what makes them conservative.

Yeah, so? As an anarchist you don't like any other form of government... why pick on conservatives at random? Did you have a point? A quote you forgot to copy and paste, perhaps?
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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/8/2010 7:53:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:46:23 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:42:27 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
If we were in a state of Liberty, wouldn't it be really sh*tty to be anything other than a conservative?

Nope, because conservatives adhere to traditional values
That's a reactionary. Conservatism is the status quo, not the past.

generally authoritarianism
Depends how you define that.

due to a primitive opposition to any sort of change
Due to all kinds of reasons. Conservative motives vary, just as libertarian motives vary (some prohibit force and fraud on principle, some prohibit it for economics, some as the quickest means to heir weed...)

, not because they are actually intelligent.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Reasoning
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10/8/2010 9:51:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 7:50:20 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Libertarianism is anarchism.

It's more like minarchy.

Nope.

"Q: Before we start the interview I would like to ask you to define a term that will pop up many times during this discussion and as many people think is synonymous. What is Libertarianism for you?

SEK3 - Libertarian is another term for Free-Market Anarchist, though it often includes softer-core fellow travelers such as minarchists. The word originally was used by free-thinkers in relation to religion to mean those who believed in free-will over determinism (which is not all that bad an association for us) and then became a euphemism for anarchist in Europe in the 19th Century. It was revived by Leonard Read in the 1940s to mean those Classical Liberals who refused to join the rest of the Liberal Movement into becoming soft-Left statists, and who had largely joined the U.S. Old Right coalition against that kind of Liberal, bordering on fascist, New Deal. With the election of Eisenhower and death of Robert Taft, the Old Right coalition disintegrated. Buckley pulled the pro-State conservatives into his New Right while Murray Rothbard rallied the Isolationist (non-interventionist in foreign policy) Libertarians into alliance with the New Left. New York-based Rothbard became an anarchist in 1950 and defined the hard-core position accordingly. Robert LeFevre accomplished the same in the Western U.S."[1]

Liberalism, in the best sense of the term, is libertarianism.

According to you...

According to Leonard Read, according to Murray Rothbard, according to David Hart, according to Tom Palmer, etc.

All of history has been the ongoing battle between Authority and Liberty and the conservative has always sided with Authority. Indeed, that is what makes them conservative.

Yeah, so? As an anarchist you don't like any other form of government... why pick on conservatives at random?

Because conservatives are the most evil.

1 http://www.spaz.org...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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10/8/2010 9:52:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 6:29:00 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:25:48 AM, Reasoning wrote:
The conservative and the libertarian are enemies, they are at opposite poles. Between the two there can be no reconciliation.

You are wrong.
The libertarian is the true conservative.

lolololololol
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
J.Kenyon
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10/8/2010 10:00:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 12:33:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
True conservatism and libertarianism are compatible, but there is no overlap between the Republican Party and libertarianism.

Ron Paul?
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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10/8/2010 10:19:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/8/2010 10:00:57 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:33:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
True conservatism and libertarianism are compatible, but there is no overlap between the Republican Party and libertarianism.

Ron Paul?

At 10/8/2010 12:50:36 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:46:53 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 10/8/2010 12:33:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
there is no overlap between the Republican Party and libertarianism.

Ron Paul
When I say Republican Party, I mean the platform and ideology of the party itself, not the ideology of every single individual member.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.