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Noam Chomsky on Post-Modernism

Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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12/15/2015 5:43:11 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 4:53:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"It's not easy to come up with exciting new ideas, so you have to come up with crazy ideas"

https://www.youtube.com...

This is freaky... I like just watched this today.

It reminds me of Feynman on 'cargo cult science':

http://www.lhup.edu...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
brycef
Posts: 157
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12/15/2015 7:23:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
interesting video

Chomsky is a great speaker and has great insight into a lot of things, but as I become more educated and explore more of the world I find myself disagreeing with him more and more.

Post-Modernism in all arts is essentially a deconstruction, and I think an attempt at stumbling upon new meanings and perspectives through what is basically chaos and irrationality. The clearest example of this might be chance music - in chance music composers would do things like stick bubblegum in a piano to change the sound randomly. Sometimes this just made things discordant, but occasionally it would reveal new patterns of beauty. By exploring atonality, composers pushed through a lot of awful BS, but they also stumbled upon a lot of beauty. That beauty in atonality and noise would later be utilized as new tools by future musicians who were interested in songcraft rather than sonic innovation, which stands testament to the value of postmodernism. Granted, for a while these experiments in sound were confined to more extreme composers like Iannis Xenakis and John Cage, but the appeal was not lost on those outside of the art and academic worlds, and later these experiments were adopted significantly by jazz figures like Ornette Coleman and John Coltrane, and eventually even pop groups like The Velvet Underground, The Jesus and Mary Chain, Sonic Youth, My Bloody Valentine, and so on.

The roots of postmodernism lie in certain modernist movements, perhaps most notably surrealism. In surrealism artists combine the real, physical world with the irrational. The irrational, abstract aspect of the art is representative of what's going on in our minds, and more specifically our subconscious. After all, what goes on in our minds and how we see the world around us is more real to us than the actual outside world, which we fail to perceive with complete accuracy. In this way the surrealists attempted to capture the world as people know it better than realists or classicists.

To be honest, the only part of postmodernism I really care about is the very beginning of the movement, when postmodernism and its parent modernist movements like surrealism, futurism, cubism, and expressionism began to challenge people's perceptions of the world. I accept the validity of much postmodern art, but too often I find myself reacting with "so what?" For example, I remember seeing a large blue bed sheet laid across a canvass, completely unaltered, in a major art museum. This piece had gone for tens of thousands of dollars. The point of the piece was the feelings it inspired in the viewer - feelings of warmth, innocence, and childhood. It was effective in that way. But I was honestly completely disgusted that anyone would pay so much money for what was essentially a concept. Another big thing in postmodernism right now is pieces that play on different shades of a color, essentially pushing the bounds of visual art by making pieces out of different shades of white that are just barely perceivable. To me these are neat optical illusions, not art.

So yeah, I do see postmodernism as valid. I also find very little value in most of it. But it's valid because it brings in new tools to the arsenal of the writer, the painter, the musician, and even the social theorist, and because of this I look forward to the era that will inevitably come after the era of postmodernism, when people bring the new techniques and tools they've found through experimentation and incorporate them into emotionally and/or psychologically satisfying artworks to their maximum potency. I think that era is already upon us.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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12/15/2015 9:20:37 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 5:43:11 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/15/2015 4:53:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"It's not easy to come up with exciting new ideas, so you have to come up with crazy ideas"

https://www.youtube.com...

This is freaky... I like just watched this today.

It reminds me of Feynman on 'cargo cult science':

http://www.lhup.edu...

Lol how strange
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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12/15/2015 9:40:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 7:23:05 PM, brycef wrote:
It's possible to be creative without abandoning all principles of beauty and sensibility. I have no problem with people trying out new methods or looking for profundity in strange places. That's not even unique to post-modernism. What I do have a problem is with people passing off incoherent garbage as finished art rather than what it really amounts to: failed experiments, attempts at profundity that didn't end well. Post-modernists are so desperate to distinguish themselves from past movements that they're willing to do whatever it takes to establish a unique identity, even if that means shoving a fork up their anus and calling that art. They're pretentious fools and will be regarded as such by future generations.
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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12/15/2015 10:10:44 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 5:43:11 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/15/2015 4:53:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"It's not easy to come up with exciting new ideas, so you have to come up with crazy ideas"

https://www.youtube.com...

This is freaky... I like just watched this today.

It reminds me of Feynman on 'cargo cult science':

http://www.lhup.edu...

- I like Feynman very much, especially his wit & modesty. But, I don't think his method into the 'mystic' is the right way to go. An ordinary person may follow this method & probably arrive at similar conclusions about Science just the same!
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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12/16/2015 5:28:19 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 10:10:44 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/15/2015 5:43:11 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/15/2015 4:53:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"It's not easy to come up with exciting new ideas, so you have to come up with crazy ideas"

https://www.youtube.com...

This is freaky... I like just watched this today.

It reminds me of Feynman on 'cargo cult science':

http://www.lhup.edu...

- I like Feynman very much, especially his wit & modesty. But, I don't think his method into the 'mystic' is the right way to go. An ordinary person may follow this method & probably arrive at similar conclusions about Science just the same!

What do you mean?
YYW
Posts: 36,252
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12/16/2015 11:45:58 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Postmodernism is kind of like masturbation.... it feels good if you get into it every once and a while, but dedicate your life to it and you're going to have problems.
Tsar of DDO
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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12/17/2015 12:30:45 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 5:28:19 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:10:44 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/15/2015 5:43:11 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 12/15/2015 4:53:51 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
"It's not easy to come up with exciting new ideas, so you have to come up with crazy ideas"

https://www.youtube.com...

This is freaky... I like just watched this today.

It reminds me of Feynman on 'cargo cult science':

http://www.lhup.edu...

- I like Feynman very much, especially his wit & modesty. But, I don't think his method into the 'mystic' is the right way to go. An ordinary person may follow this method & probably arrive at similar conclusions about Science just the same!

What do you mean?

- An ordinary ignorant person who heard of this thing called Science, may go & check on those who claim to do science, & after few attempts, finds out there is nothing in there worth considering. This due to his ignorance, & probably the ignorance of his source. An adequate method would be to seek Traditions, not people. Examples of known mystic traditions are Sufism & Buddhism.
Current Debates:

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