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Attention On American Indian Genocide

1harderthanyouthink
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12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:
What about it?
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And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Yassine
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12/24/2015 2:16:28 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:

What about it?

- What are your thoughts on the subject?
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1harderthanyouthink
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12/24/2015 2:18:17 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:16:28 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:

What about it?

- What are your thoughts on the subject?

I don't find it to be very important.

What? Are we going to find what Americans had ancestors that were even present at the time and reprimand them for killing a bunch of natives?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Yassine
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12/24/2015 2:21:31 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:18:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:16:28 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:

What about it?

- What are your thoughts on the subject?

I don't find it to be very important.

- I don't think those natives feel the same way.

What? Are we going to find what Americans had ancestors that were even present at the time and reprimand them for killing a bunch of natives?

- We hear a lot of the Polish Holocaust & the Nazis, we don't hear a lot about American Holocaust & the Europeans.
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Vox_Veritas
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12/24/2015 2:24:18 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
It wasn't so much intentional genocide as it was intentional expulsion from native lands accompanied by accidental genocide through the transmission of deadly Old-World diseases.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Greyparrot
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12/24/2015 2:25:41 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:21:31 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:18:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:16:28 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:

What about it?

- What are your thoughts on the subject?

I don't find it to be very important.

- I don't think those natives feel the same way.

They are dead. They don't feel anything.
Yassine
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12/24/2015 2:28:01 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:25:41 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:21:31 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:18:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:16:28 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:

What about it?

- What are your thoughts on the subject?

I don't find it to be very important.

- I don't think those natives feel the same way.

They are dead. They don't feel anything.

- Contrary to their history, their memory, their cultures, their descendants...
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Greyparrot
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12/24/2015 2:30:51 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:28:01 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:25:41 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:21:31 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:18:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:16:28 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:

What about it?

- What are your thoughts on the subject?

I don't find it to be very important.

- I don't think those natives feel the same way.

They are dead. They don't feel anything.

- Contrary to their history, their memory, their cultures, their descendants...

The ones that are alive don't know anything about it, unlike a scant handful of 1940 holocaust survivors. And anyone can feel whatever they choose to feel in the absence of actual experiences. Get over yourself.
Yassine
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12/24/2015 2:46:00 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:30:51 AM, Greyparrot wrote:

The ones that are alive don't know anything about it,

- What does that have to do with their history, culture, memory... being present!?

unlike a scant handful of 1940 holocaust survivors.

- Soooo... the memory, history & all that crap, of Jews in Poland is limited to these handful of survivors. & the rest, of course, don't matter. & why should the rest of the World care about those anyways?!

And anyone can feel whatever they choose to feel in the absence of actual experiences.

- Soooo... things like America Slavery shouldn't warrant any sort of actual feeling?

Get over yourself.

- I am not even remotely related to that, not in race, or region, or anything, only humanity.
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lotsoffun
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12/24/2015 3:22:20 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:
=> Thoughts?

We can probably agree on this subject. The natives of the entire Americas were subjected to this, from Canada to Argentina. The
Spanish were extremely cruel. Must have been the former Muslim influence (just kidding). The French were probably the most agreeable to the native people in North America and the English were both decent and cruel. In the end, it didn't end well for the native peoples. They need to move on. Many have. Old grievances on hurt the one with the grievance.
000ike
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12/24/2015 3:37:34 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:24:18 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It wasn't so much intentional genocide as it was intentional expulsion from native lands accompanied by accidental genocide through the transmission of deadly Old-World diseases.

and also intentional genocide by transmission of old-world diseases by the 18th Century (e.g. British disseminating blankets infected with smallpox to native americans as gifts during Pontiac's Rebellion)
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Vox_Veritas
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12/24/2015 3:49:18 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 3:37:34 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:24:18 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It wasn't so much intentional genocide as it was intentional expulsion from native lands accompanied by accidental genocide through the transmission of deadly Old-World diseases.

and also intentional genocide by transmission of old-world diseases by the 18th Century (e.g. British disseminating blankets infected with smallpox to native americans as gifts during Pontiac's Rebellion)

Wait...what?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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1harderthanyouthink
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12/24/2015 3:50:37 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:21:31 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:18:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:16:28 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:

What about it?

- What are your thoughts on the subject?

I don't find it to be very important.

- I don't think those natives feel the same way.

They don't exactly have ill will towards the US.

What? Are we going to find what Americans had ancestors that were even present at the time and reprimand them for killing a bunch of natives?

- We hear a lot of the Polish Holocaust & the Nazis, we don't hear a lot about American Holocaust & the Europeans.

That's because the Nazis occupied a shitload of Europe and it was not ranging between 200 and 400 years ago.

It's only paid attention to because people want a reason to talk about things that were bad that America did - even if that is a statement of bad history.

Maybe we should talk about the Russian conquest of Siberia? Or do we not care?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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000ike
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12/24/2015 4:07:57 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 3:49:18 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/24/2015 3:37:34 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:24:18 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It wasn't so much intentional genocide as it was intentional expulsion from native lands accompanied by accidental genocide through the transmission of deadly Old-World diseases.

and also intentional genocide by transmission of old-world diseases by the 18th Century (e.g. British disseminating blankets infected with smallpox to native americans as gifts during Pontiac's Rebellion)

Wait...what?

It's commonly cited as an early instance of bioterrorism. The British provided infected accoutrements to a group of native americans during Pontiac's Rebellion with the expressed intent of causing an epidemic that would weaken the siege on Fort Pitt. I don't know if it actually resulted in genocide, but the instance at least shows genocidal intent and as such serves as a counterpoint to the argument that the transmission of diseases was unintentional.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Midnight1131
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12/24/2015 4:41:49 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:
=> Thoughts?

I mean what are you going to do now? We all live in the new world, I don't think anyone here wishes that we left the natives and their lands alone and never settled here. It could've been handled better, but no one cared enough or had the ability to contain the spread of diseases back then.
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Yassine
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12/24/2015 4:44:38 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 3:50:37 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

They don't exactly have ill will towards the US.

- What does that have to do with it not being important.

That's because the Nazis occupied a shitload of Europe

- Nearly a century ago.

and it was not ranging between 200 and 400 years ago.

- Well, less than a century before the Nazis, & lasted dozens of times longer. I see incoherence in reasoning here.

It's only paid attention to because people want a reason to talk about things that were bad that America did

- They is plenty to talk about in the present, no need to dig up the past.

- even if that is a statement of bad history.

- The post is not about the genocide itself, it's about the historical value it has in the present.

Maybe we should talk about the Russian conquest of Siberia? Or do we not care?

- That's irrelevant. One: the same America which did these genocides still exists, not the case for Russia. Two: it concerns the Russians & their natives.
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tajshar2k
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12/24/2015 2:42:07 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:
=> Thoughts?

It wasn't really a genocide. The Europeans brought diseases which killed them. I'll admit they were treated in a good way, but I wouldn't call it genocide.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
tajshar2k
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12/24/2015 2:42:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:42:07 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:
=> Thoughts?

It wasn't really a genocide. The Europeans brought diseases which killed them. I'll admit they were treated in a good way, but I wouldn't call it genocide.

weren't
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TBR
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12/24/2015 3:11:56 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:
=> Thoughts?

Well Yassine.

1) It is talked about. Plenty.

2) There is reality and myth in both storylines. "The Native Americans were peaceful blah blah -> European invaders were genecotial nutbags" or the older narrative "cowboys and Indians". Neither reflect the story well.

3) Are you bring this up for a reason?
Robkwoods
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12/24/2015 4:03:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:18:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:16:28 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:

What about it?

- What are your thoughts on the subject?

I don't find it to be very important.

What? Are we going to find what Americans had ancestors that were even present at the time and reprimand them for killing a bunch of natives?

Probably.

The truth is that throughout the history of the world people have tried to claim something as theirs. How and when did the "native americans" get here? How is this their land? Who decided that?
If you claim something is yours you probably should be able to defend against someone who wants it also. The Native Americans were a technologically retarded society. In battle of Tech vs Lower Tech, lower loses more often.
Native American tribes were conquering other tribes before Europeans even knew about the americas. Europeans often would provide certain tribes with goods so that they could take over other tribes.
Was it sad that we tried to separate Native Americans rather than assimulate them? Yes, this is where we went wrong.
Greyparrot
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12/24/2015 4:58:37 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 4:03:17 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
cided that?
If you claim something is yours you probably should be able to defend against someone who wants it also. The Native Americans were a technologically retarded society. In battle of Tech vs Lower Tech, lower loses more often.
Native American tribes were conquering other tribes before Europeans even knew about the americas. Europeans often would provide certain tribes with goods so that they could take over other tribes.
Was it sad that we tried to separate Native Americans rather than assimulate them? Yes, this is where we went wrong.

Racial separatism is always a bad idea. Especially groups like blacklivesmatter
1harderthanyouthink
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12/24/2015 6:16:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 4:44:38 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 3:50:37 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
It's only paid attention to because people want a reason to talk about things that were bad that America did

- They is plenty to talk about in the present, no need to dig up the past.

I don't see anything to talk about.

- even if that is a statement of bad history.

- The post is not about the genocide itself, it's about the historical value it has in the present.

It has none.

Maybe we should talk about the Russian conquest of Siberia? Or do we not care?

- That's irrelevant. One: the same America which did these genocides still exists, not the case for Russia. Two: it concerns the Russians & their natives.

If it's still the same America, then people should get mad at Massachusetts for the Salem witch trials.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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bballcrook21
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12/24/2015 6:45:40 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
They were savages. We did more with their lands than those savages could've done in a millennium.

It's how the world works. The inferior are dominated by the superior. This isn't some Constitutional paradigm where they were denied their rights. They were running around campfires and praising painted wooden poles, and wearing painted feathers.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
bballcrook21
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12/24/2015 6:47:15 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
The majority of these kinds of posts are there to make Caucasians feel angry or guilty about the actions of past individuals.

There is no reason to feel guilty about an act one did not do. At this point, I'm more than relieved that we massacred those Natives. That's why I like Andrew Jackson.

They were savages. Get over it.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
bballcrook21
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12/24/2015 6:53:57 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 3:50:37 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:21:31 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:18:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:16:28 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:

What about it?

- What are your thoughts on the subject?

I don't find it to be very important.

- I don't think those natives feel the same way.

They don't exactly have ill will towards the US.

What? Are we going to find what Americans had ancestors that were even present at the time and reprimand them for killing a bunch of natives?

- We hear a lot of the Polish Holocaust & the Nazis, we don't hear a lot about American Holocaust & the Europeans.

That's because the Nazis occupied a shitload of Europe and it was not ranging between 200 and 400 years ago.

It's only paid attention to because people want a reason to talk about things that were bad that America did - even if that is a statement of bad history.

Maybe we should talk about the Russian conquest of Siberia? Or do we not care?

I agree with you on this one.

The Jews that suffered are still present, and the Germans that perpetrated this suffering are still alive. Only those individuals have the ability or authority to feel guilty/sad about past events.

To make a young German feel guilty is ludicrous. To make a young Jew feel sad is also ludicrous. If people who have no relation to you whatsoever did something a long time ago, it is not worthy of guilt.

However, there is quite a large difference between what the Nazis did and what happened to the Natives. For one, the killing of Jews was deliberate and cruel; also was based upon an irrational premise (not to say that killing is rational, unless in self-defense).

The Natives were killed, either because they resisted, or because they raided settlements. Same thing with the introduction of diseases that the Natives were not attuned to.

It's somewhat shameful to say it, but I feel no remorse for what happened to the Natives. Their traditions, culture, history, and society were practically degenerate. They praised wooden totem polls, and danced around campfires.

This is how you tell which society is inferior and which society is superior. Find an Aristotle, a Pythagoras, a Locke, or a Smith. If you cannot find an abundance of philosophers, historians, artists, mathematicians, and scientists, but instead of you find farmers and warrior, then that society is inferior to Western society.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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12/24/2015 6:56:28 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 4:03:17 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:18:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:16:28 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:

What about it?

- What are your thoughts on the subject?

I don't find it to be very important.

What? Are we going to find what Americans had ancestors that were even present at the time and reprimand them for killing a bunch of natives?

Probably.

The truth is that throughout the history of the world people have tried to claim something as theirs. How and when did the "native americans" get here? How is this their land? Who decided that?
If you claim something is yours you probably should be able to defend against someone who wants it also. The Native Americans were a technologically retarded society. In battle of Tech vs Lower Tech, lower loses more often.
Native American tribes were conquering other tribes before Europeans even knew about the americas. Europeans often would provide certain tribes with goods so that they could take over other tribes.

Couldn't have said it better myself. You summed up my views, except without the whole "inferior" and racism thing.

Was it sad that we tried to separate Native Americans rather than assimulate them? Yes, this is where we went wrong.

You never assimilate with degenerate people. They assimilate with you, not the other way around. It's better to have a society of Western ideals, rather than a society of Native ideals. Plus, it's quite difficult to turn one homogeneous society with Enlightened ideals into one with somewhat savage ideals.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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12/24/2015 6:56:58 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:24:18 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
It wasn't so much intentional genocide as it was intentional expulsion from native lands accompanied by accidental genocide through the transmission of deadly Old-World diseases.

+1
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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12/24/2015 6:57:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 2:25:41 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:21:31 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:18:17 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:16:28 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:15:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 2:07:51 AM, Yassine wrote:

What about it?

- What are your thoughts on the subject?

I don't find it to be very important.

- I don't think those natives feel the same way.

They are dead. They don't feel anything.

+1

No need to feel for others who are dead.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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12/24/2015 7:02:12 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 6:45:40 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
They were savages. We did more with their lands than those savages could've done in a millennium.

It's how the world works. The inferior are dominated by the superior. This isn't some Constitutional paradigm where they were denied their rights. They were running around campfires and praising painted wooden poles, and wearing painted feathers.

"The game of Cilvilzation has nothing to do with the players, and everything to do with the map"

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