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RFD: FT and Cassie (Aff. Action)

YYW
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12/24/2015 3:07:21 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I. Debate:

http://www.debate.org...

II. Resolution:

a. Actual resolution

"On balance, affirmative action in the United States is desirable"

b. Judge disclaimer

I oppose affirmative action, but I am certainly capable of not allowing my personal views to influence how the debate is evaluated, as any competent judge must be able to do. I was not asked to vote on this debate. I am doing it because after having read the debate, a real RFD is needed. Too many stupid people have voted on it already, but, given the facts and circumstances surrounding this debate, I am not surprised by that at all.

III. Burdens:

a. Persuasion

Equal burdens of persuasion, for reasons that I have explained at considerable length in both the voting guide (see my profile) and almost every RFD i've ever written. If you disagree with this, then you are wrong, and I will certainly be happy to explain at considerable length *why* you are wrong... but I just woke up, so no need to repeat myself. So many people screw this up, it's staggering. It is, though, like permission to play. (If you can't get this right, it's unlikely you're going to get anything else right.)

b. Terms

"Affirmative action" refers to "policies that offer individuals affiliated with a beneficiary group a preference over others in competitions for employment, education, or other valued resources."

IV. Arguments

PRO: (1) Reparative justice: Affirmative action seeks to redress historical racial "wrongs." It effectively "balances the equation," "levels the playing field," helping rectify, at least partially, injuries that continue to put certain racial minorities at a competitive disadvantage. (2) Diversity is good: diversity, in effect, "does the institution a favor, enriches the institution, brings to it the positive asset of new perspectives " the institution needs the applicant more than the applicant needs the institution." (3) Integration: (same functional point as diversity, should not have been a discrete argument) In facilitating such integration, affirmative action thus knits together our deeply divided society and promotes our government"s legitimacy. (4) Prophylaxis: Affirmative action helps counter ongoing racism and sexism, and in doing so, helps prevent further racism/sexism.

CON: (1) AA hurts minorities: minority students were exceedingly representative of the bottom ten percent of the class " only one in four passed, Thanks to affirmative-action, this vicious spiral continues to lower self-esteem and increase self-doubt amongst minority students as a collective, Affirmative-action hurts high-performing students, and leads to racial violence (no evidence), Discrimination breeds racial tension which divides communities and leads to violence; (2) Arguments in relation to non-minority affirmative-action recipients: Affirmative-action encourages women into jobs they have little interest in, Men are heavily discriminated against.

PRO rebuttals: (a) economic costs are exaggerated (read: bullsh!t) ("source says $1.7 billion is spent on workplace regulations, not affirmative action regulations, and $21.4 billion is spent complying with those workplace regulations;" and " no way to quantify, with even a modicum of precision or consistency, the so-called "opportunity cost" of "bad hiring decisions" and "negative effects on morale."); (b) minority harms: Con suggests four harms to minorities: overpromotion, less black lawyers, more self-doubt, stress, and anxiety among minorities, and discrimination again Asians. I"ll address each in turn; (c) racial tension: no evidence that affirmative action has any causal relationship with racial tension or racial violence (yep); (d) sexism: Affirmative action simply creates greater opportunity for them to achieve sh!t. (yay! ...jk, lol).

CON's rebuttals: (1) restorative justice: (weak rebuttal; argument was not self refuting); (2) diversity: (weak rebuttal; only said something 'can' lead to violence, not that it actually *does* lead to violence, which was CON's earlier point); (3) integration: (weak rebuttal; needed more than just differences with SAT scores, where CON was arguing for tangible harm to minorities; needed evidence consistent with that argument); (4) racism/sexism ongoing: (doesn't address PRO's arguments; non responsive).

V. Outcome:

Pro made a case, con tried and didn't. PRO gave me a way to know what "desirable" is, and really the main area of clash in this is different ideas about what the educational system should be doing. CON should have spent time rebutting PRO's suggestions, to that end. Instead, she just made a bunch of weak, speculative arguments with non-responsive rebuttals. Likewise, CON needs to not make broader conclusions than her evidence supports. Logic needs to be tighter, overall. Objective win for PRO, overwhelmingly clear. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

VI. Comments:

Structure was good with both debaters. Better than I expected, actually. That's a positive. Rebuttals have to respond to what opponent said, though. Keep conclusions tailored to premises.

CON could have easily beaten PRO, because PRO didn't make a particularly strong argument. Like, it's a much stronger attack to just say "there is no evidence at all that diversity has any quantifiable benefit to the educational process" and "even if diversity has any benefit at all, that benefit is only speculative and illusory" and "when weighing a speculative/illusory benefit against the quantifiable harms affirmative action causes, there is no world in which it can be said to be 'desirable' in any meaningful sense, consistent with what purposes Western educational systems *should* be serving."

/fin.
Tsar of DDO
FourTrouble
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12/24/2015 4:02:01 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Thanks for the RFD, YYW. Overall, a strong RFD, with a few points where you're wrong:

At 12/24/2015 3:07:21 PM, YYW wrote:
(3) Integration: (same functional point as diversity, should not have been a discrete argument) In facilitating such integration, affirmative action thus knits together our deeply divided society and promotes our government"s legitimacy.

They're functionally different in that diversity is about productivity, integration is about legitimacy. Perhaps I could have labeled the argument legitimacy to make that distinction clearer, but they're separate points.

CON could have easily beaten PRO, because PRO didn't make a particularly strong argument. Like, it's a much stronger attack to just say "there is no evidence at all that diversity has any quantifiable benefit to the educational process" and "even if diversity has any benefit at all, that benefit is only speculative and illusory" and "when weighing a speculative/illusory benefit against the quantifiable harms affirmative action causes, there is no world in which it can be said to be 'desirable' in any meaningful sense, consistent with what purposes Western educational systems *should* be serving."

There's a number of studies that show "quantifiable" benefits of diversity when comparing diverse teams and homogenous teams. You can't just wish diversity into a speculative/illusory benefit when there's quantifiable benefits there, so your "weighing" isn't meaningful in any sense -- you're simply ignoring the quantifiable benefits. In terms of educational systems, that's only a small part of the picture. Immediate quantifiable benefits of diversity are much more visible in workplaces and in the military.
YYW
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12/24/2015 6:50:47 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 4:02:01 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
Thanks for the RFD, YYW. Overall, a strong RFD, with a few points where you're wrong:

lol... I am never wrong.

At 12/24/2015 3:07:21 PM, YYW wrote:
(3) Integration: (same functional point as diversity, should not have been a discrete argument) In facilitating such integration, affirmative action thus knits together our deeply divided society and promotes our government"s legitimacy.

They're functionally different in that diversity is about productivity, integration is about legitimacy. Perhaps I could have labeled the argument legitimacy to make that distinction clearer, but they're separate points.

Integration is the means to diversity; they're the same thing. Integration is no more about "legitimacy" than diversity. You are incorrect.

CON could have easily beaten PRO, because PRO didn't make a particularly strong argument. Like, it's a much stronger attack to just say "there is no evidence at all that diversity has any quantifiable benefit to the educational process" and "even if diversity has any benefit at all, that benefit is only speculative and illusory" and "when weighing a speculative/illusory benefit against the quantifiable harms affirmative action causes, there is no world in which it can be said to be 'desirable' in any meaningful sense, consistent with what purposes Western educational systems *should* be serving."

There's a number of studies that show "quantifiable" benefits of diversity when comparing diverse teams and homogenous teams. You can't just wish diversity into a speculative/illusory benefit when there's quantifiable benefits there, so your "weighing" isn't meaningful in any sense -- you're simply ignoring the quantifiable benefits. In terms of educational systems, that's only a small part of the picture. Immediate quantifiable benefits of diversity are much more visible in workplaces and in the military.

We've talked about that. I've read dozens of the "studies" to which you refer. They're garbage, as most social science of that kind is.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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12/24/2015 6:51:11 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 3:47:56 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
YYW, what problem do you have with my RFD?

I didn't read your RFD. I don't think you even wrote one.
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WillYouMarryMe
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12/24/2015 6:58:49 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 6:51:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/24/2015 3:47:56 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
YYW, what problem do you have with my RFD?

I didn't read your RFD. I don't think you even wrote one.

I'm Genghis_Khan...
YYW
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12/24/2015 6:59:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 6:58:49 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 12/24/2015 6:51:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/24/2015 3:47:56 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
YYW, what problem do you have with my RFD?

I didn't read your RFD. I don't think you even wrote one.

I'm Genghis_Khan...

I can't (and don't) keep track of different user's various iterations of themselves.

You got the right answer.
Tsar of DDO
WillYouMarryMe
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12/24/2015 7:02:49 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 6:59:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/24/2015 6:58:49 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 12/24/2015 6:51:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/24/2015 3:47:56 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
YYW, what problem do you have with my RFD?

I didn't read your RFD. I don't think you even wrote one.

I'm Genghis_Khan...

I can't (and don't) keep track of different user's various iterations of themselves.

You got the right answer.

I know, but you've repeatedly implied that there's something wrong with my reasoning in your comments (for example, "after having read the debate, a real RFD is needed. Too many stupid people have voted on it already")
YYW
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12/24/2015 7:05:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:02:49 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 12/24/2015 6:59:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/24/2015 6:58:49 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 12/24/2015 6:51:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/24/2015 3:47:56 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
YYW, what problem do you have with my RFD?

I didn't read your RFD. I don't think you even wrote one.

I'm Genghis_Khan...

I can't (and don't) keep track of different user's various iterations of themselves.

You got the right answer.

I know, but you've repeatedly implied that there's something wrong with my reasoning in your comments (for example, "after having read the debate, a real RFD is needed. Too many stupid people have voted on it already")

I was referring to those who gave Cassie the win.
Tsar of DDO
Zarroette
Posts: 2,951
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12/24/2015 7:17:03 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 3:07:21 PM, YYW wrote:
Well, it's better you're votebombing my debate in spite, rather than psychologically abusing me and telling me to kill myself. You've come a long way, YYW
YYW
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12/24/2015 7:21:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:17:03 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 12/24/2015 3:07:21 PM, YYW wrote:
Well, it's better you're votebombing my debate in spite, rather than psychologically abusing me and telling me to kill myself. You've come a long way, YYW

I've never told you to kill yourself, nor would I ever do that. I intensely dislike you for a host of reasons which we have discussed at considerable length in the past, but that's inconsequential to the outcome of your debate with FT.

There were many things you could and should have done to beat him, because his argument was not strong; it was just stronger than yours, and his rebuttals were stronger as well.
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Zarroette
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12/24/2015 7:24:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:21:20 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:17:03 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 12/24/2015 3:07:21 PM, YYW wrote:
Well, it's better you're votebombing my debate in spite, rather than psychologically abusing me and telling me to kill myself. You've come a long way, YYW

I've never told you to kill yourself, nor would I ever do that.

This is incorrect. You have also ignored the fact that you told me I had half-a-dozen mental disorders, and you did all this when I was 15 and would actually listen to vicious trolling like that.

I'm refraining from further discussion with you, as I don't want to read any more of your toxic commentary.

Stay away from teenagers and stop telling them to kill themselves, please.

I intensely dislike you for a host of reasons which we have discussed at considerable length in the past, but that's inconsequential to the outcome of your debate with FT.

There were many things you could and should have done to beat him, because his argument was not strong; it was just stronger than yours, and his rebuttals were stronger as well.
1harderthanyouthink
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12/24/2015 7:26:01 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:24:48 PM, Zarroette wrote:

Do us a favor and shut the hell up for 10 minutes.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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WillYouMarryMe
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12/24/2015 7:28:39 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:26:01 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:24:48 PM, Zarroette wrote:

Do us a favor and shut the hell up for 10 minutes.

^

Every single one of her comments in the past 24 hours has been so massively out-of-touch with reality, it isn't even funny...
Zarroette
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12/24/2015 7:29:38 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:26:01 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:24:48 PM, Zarroette wrote:

Do us a favor and shut the hell up for 10 minutes.

Yeah, because there is nothing wrong with psychologically abusing young, impressionable teenagers.

Thanks for being a kind, considerate person.
1harderthanyouthink
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12/24/2015 7:30:21 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:29:38 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:26:01 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:24:48 PM, Zarroette wrote:

Do us a favor and shut the hell up for 10 minutes.

Yeah, because there is nothing wrong with psychologically abusing young, impressionable teenagers.

Thanks for being a kind, considerate person.

I missed where he told you to go kill yourself, and how that has anything to do with voting on a debate.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Zarroette
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12/24/2015 7:31:24 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:28:39 PM, WillYouMarryMe wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:26:01 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:24:48 PM, Zarroette wrote:

Do us a favor and shut the hell up for 10 minutes.

^

Every single one of her comments in the past 24 hours has been so massively out-of-touch with reality, it isn't even funny...

I'm sorry, but do you know the content of all the PMs I get from everyone? You clearly do. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to say that my comments are "out-of-touch with reality".

You need to be reported for hacking the PM servers, because you're not allowed access to those.
lamerde
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12/24/2015 7:34:53 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:24:48 PM, Zarroette wrote:

This is incorrect. You have also ignored the fact that you told me I had half-a-dozen mental disorders, and you did all this when I was 15 and would actually listen to vicious trolling like that.

What the actually fvck?
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
WillYouMarryMe
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12/24/2015 7:34:59 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
So, someone please refresh my memory -- how exactly are interactions from two years ago relevant to this RFD?
Zarroette
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12/24/2015 7:36:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:34:53 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:24:48 PM, Zarroette wrote:

This is incorrect. You have also ignored the fact that you told me I had half-a-dozen mental disorders, and you did all this when I was 15 and would actually listen to vicious trolling like that.

What the actually fvck?

I know. I have no idea why someone would do this, let alone think it funny and justify it. Ask YYW.
lamerde
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12/24/2015 7:37:38 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:36:13 PM, Zarroette wrote:

I know. I have no idea why someone would do this, let alone think it funny and justify it. Ask YYW.

No one on DDO is remotely qualified to make that assessment, and YYW has made several threads about this.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
1harderthanyouthink
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12/24/2015 7:41:59 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Don't jump on this as an attempt to attack YYW. This is not even a good reason to do it. Zarroette is being Zarroette - this is not about YYW, and it shouldn't be made to be that.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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lamerde
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12/24/2015 7:44:06 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:41:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Don't jump on this as an attempt to attack YYW. This is not even a good reason to do it. Zarroette is being Zarroette - this is not about YYW, and it shouldn't be made to be that.

I'm going to call out when he's being hypocritical. This was one of those instances.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
imabench
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12/24/2015 7:45:00 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:24:48 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:21:20 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:17:03 PM, Zarroette wrote:
At 12/24/2015 3:07:21 PM, YYW wrote:
Well, it's better you're votebombing my debate in spite, rather than psychologically abusing me and telling me to kill myself. You've come a long way, YYW

I've never told you to kill yourself, nor would I ever do that.

This is incorrect. You have also ignored the fact that you told me I had half-a-dozen mental disorders

Anyone who has had a conversation with you for longer than 40 seconds would probably arrive at the same conclusion....
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

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http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
1harderthanyouthink
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12/24/2015 7:45:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:44:06 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:41:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Don't jump on this as an attempt to attack YYW. This is not even a good reason to do it. Zarroette is being Zarroette - this is not about YYW, and it shouldn't be made to be that.

I'm going to call out when he's being hypocritical. This was one of those instances.

This is *not* the time for calling people out.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
000ike
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12/24/2015 7:48:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:45:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:44:06 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:41:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Don't jump on this as an attempt to attack YYW. This is not even a good reason to do it. Zarroette is being Zarroette - this is not about YYW, and it shouldn't be made to be that.

I'm going to call out when he's being hypocritical. This was one of those instances.

This is *not* the time for calling people out.

You realize that's precisely what you're doing against Zarroette right? This is absolutely not to align myself with anyone in this conflict, but again you're intervening just to support your friend and attack his 'enemies' -- it's annoying to watch.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Zarroette
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12/24/2015 7:49:46 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:44:06 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:41:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Don't jump on this as an attempt to attack YYW. This is not even a good reason to do it. Zarroette is being Zarroette - this is not about YYW, and it shouldn't be made to be that.

I'm going to call out when he's being hypocritical. This was one of those instances.

I know. YYW has done this so many times to so many young, impressionable people. And he never seems to be banned for any of this!!

Thank you for recognizing what YYW has done. It is nice not to be alone for once, and actually have people believe what I say, instead of ignoring it, like 1harderthanyouthink and WillYouMarryMe are doing =)
1harderthanyouthink
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12/24/2015 7:50:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:48:20 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:45:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:44:06 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:41:59 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Don't jump on this as an attempt to attack YYW. This is not even a good reason to do it. Zarroette is being Zarroette - this is not about YYW, and it shouldn't be made to be that.

I'm going to call out when he's being hypocritical. This was one of those instances.

This is *not* the time for calling people out.

You realize that's precisely what you're doing against Zarroette right? This is absolutely not to align myself with anyone in this conflict, but again you're intervening just to support your friend and attack his 'enemies' -- it's annoying to watch.

No. I told her to shut up and stop bringing bullsh!t into the thread. I'm doing the same for Tulle. THIS IS AN RFD, NOT A F*CKING ATTACK THREAD.

If you want to talk to me, do it somewhere else - I frankly do not give a quarter of a f*ck about your opinion on my behavior. Good day.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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YYW
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12/24/2015 7:51:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:34:53 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/24/2015 7:24:48 PM, Zarroette wrote:

This is incorrect. You have also ignored the fact that you told me I had half-a-dozen mental disorders, and you did all this when I was 15 and would actually listen to vicious trolling like that.

What the actually fvck?

I have literally never done that. I may be anasshole but I did not do what she is saying I did.
Tsar of DDO
lamerde
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12/24/2015 7:54:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 7:49:46 PM, Zarroette wrote:

I know. YYW has done this so many times to so many young, impressionable people. And he never seems to be banned for any of this!!

Thank you for recognizing what YYW has done. It is nice not to be alone for once, and actually have people believe what I say, instead of ignoring it, like 1harderthanyouthink and WillYouMarryMe are doing =)

Absolutely. I've been a member here for 6 years now, and I've seen Wolf (YYW) condescend to and bully so many members. Perhaps I turned a blind eye to it in the past because we were "friends" of sorts, but I honestly think he's gotten worse over the past couple of years. And I think that may have to do with the changing demographic of the site, as he gets older and the average DDO user is younger than him. I have complained to the mods that he's able to get away with constantly attacking members, but they won't do anything about it. So I'm going to continue to point out his inconsistencies and lies.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...