Total Posts:19|Showing Posts:1-19
Jump to topic:

Obama commutes sentences for victimless crime

Chang29
Posts: 732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 1:46:39 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Obama commutes sentences for victimless crimes

http://www.civilrights.org...

President Obama does very little that I support, but commuting sentences for victimless crime I support. Looking at the crimes, I noticed one armed robbery (crime with victim), most of the rest conspiracy and/or possession offense (victimless crime). Conspiracy and possession crimes provide law enforcement easy opportunities for entrapment. Law enforcement should be on request like other emergency services, when a victim needs help.

For those that object, explain how anyone is harmed during conspiracy and possession, crimes of talking and holding. After a plan harms another or an item is used then prosecute for the harm done.

Computations should be immediate, some are Apr 2016 many must wait until after the election. Maybe spineless democrats are worried about a Willy Horton incident.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,251
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 2:04:33 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 1:46:39 AM, Chang29 wrote:
Obama commutes sentences for victimless crimes

http://www.civilrights.org...

President Obama does very little that I support, but commuting sentences for victimless crime I support. Looking at the crimes, I noticed one armed robbery (crime with victim), most of the rest conspiracy and/or possession offense (victimless crime). Conspiracy and possession crimes provide law enforcement easy opportunities for entrapment. Law enforcement should be on request like other emergency services, when a victim needs help.

For those that object, explain how anyone is harmed during conspiracy and possession, crimes of talking and holding. After a plan harms another or an item is used then prosecute for the harm done.

Computations should be immediate, some are Apr 2016 many must wait until after the election. Maybe spineless democrats are worried about a Willy Horton incident.

He should release all drug dealers and other white collar criminals.
Chang29
Posts: 732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 2:32:21 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 2:04:33 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/25/2015 1:46:39 AM, Chang29 wrote:
Obama commutes sentences for victimless crimes

http://www.civilrights.org...

President Obama does very little that I support, but commuting sentences for victimless crime I support. Looking at the crimes, I noticed one armed robbery (crime with victim), most of the rest conspiracy and/or possession offense (victimless crime). Conspiracy and possession crimes provide law enforcement easy opportunities for entrapment. Law enforcement should be on request like other emergency services, when a victim needs help.

For those that object, explain how anyone is harmed during conspiracy and possession, crimes of talking and holding. After a plan harms another or an item is used then prosecute for the harm done.

Computations should be immediate, some are Apr 2016 many must wait until after the election. Maybe spineless democrats are worried about a Willy Horton incident.

He should release all drug dealers and other white collar criminals.

Let's stick with conspiracy and possession crimes on this thread. If a person causes harm to another's person or property then punishment is warranted.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,251
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 3:03:22 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 2:32:21 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 12/25/2015 2:04:33 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/25/2015 1:46:39 AM, Chang29 wrote:
Obama commutes sentences for victimless crimes

http://www.civilrights.org...

President Obama does very little that I support, but commuting sentences for victimless crime I support. Looking at the crimes, I noticed one armed robbery (crime with victim), most of the rest conspiracy and/or possession offense (victimless crime). Conspiracy and possession crimes provide law enforcement easy opportunities for entrapment. Law enforcement should be on request like other emergency services, when a victim needs help.

For those that object, explain how anyone is harmed during conspiracy and possession, crimes of talking and holding. After a plan harms another or an item is used then prosecute for the harm done.

Computations should be immediate, some are Apr 2016 many must wait until after the election. Maybe spineless democrats are worried about a Willy Horton incident.

He should release all drug dealers and other white collar criminals.

Let's stick with conspiracy and possession crimes on this thread. If a person causes harm to another's person or property then punishment is warranted.

Selling drugs is a victimless crime.
allansthunder
Posts: 4
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 3:37:49 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Selling drugs is not a victimless crime, as the buyer may not understand the full dangers of partaking in drugs before buying them. However, I do believe that it is not the governments responsibility to take away someones' freedoms even if its for their own personal good.

The real issue in selling drugs should not be seen in such a case where the buyer is the victim. Instead I believe it is contributing to the ongoing cultural decay we have here in America where EVERYONE is the victim.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,251
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 4:48:26 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 3:37:49 AM, allansthunder wrote:
Selling drugs is not a victimless crime, as the buyer may not understand the full dangers of partaking in drugs before buying them. However, I do believe that it is not the governments responsibility to take away someones' freedoms even if its for their own personal good.

The real issue in selling drugs should not be seen in such a case where the buyer is the victim. Instead I believe it is contributing to the ongoing cultural decay we have here in America where EVERYONE is the victim.

If a person is not capable of making a purchase decision for any reason, then the free market should be completely abolished.
Chang29
Posts: 732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 7:42:53 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 3:37:49 AM, allansthunder wrote:
Selling drugs is not a victimless crime, as the buyer may not understand the full dangers of partaking in drugs before buying them. However, I do believe that it is not the governments responsibility to take away someones' freedoms even if its for their own personal good.

The real issue in selling drugs should not be seen in such a case where the buyer is the victim. Instead I believe it is contributing to the ongoing cultural decay we have here in America where EVERYONE is the victim.

Locking people in cages to prevent "cultural decay", that is some high values. Who should determine what is the supreior culture that should be protected? Let me guess, an elected politician.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Chang29
Posts: 732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 7:44:19 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 3:03:22 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/25/2015 2:32:21 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 12/25/2015 2:04:33 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/25/2015 1:46:39 AM, Chang29 wrote:
Obama commutes sentences for victimless crimes

http://www.civilrights.org...

President Obama does very little that I support, but commuting sentences for victimless crime I support. Looking at the crimes, I noticed one armed robbery (crime with victim), most of the rest conspiracy and/or possession offense (victimless crime). Conspiracy and possession crimes provide law enforcement easy opportunities for entrapment. Law enforcement should be on request like other emergency services, when a victim needs help.

For those that object, explain how anyone is harmed during conspiracy and possession, crimes of talking and holding. After a plan harms another or an item is used then prosecute for the harm done.

Computations should be immediate, some are Apr 2016 many must wait until after the election. Maybe spineless democrats are worried about a Willy Horton incident.

He should release all drug dealers and other white collar criminals.

Let's stick with conspiracy and possession crimes on this thread. If a person causes harm to another's person or property then punishment is warranted.

Selling drugs is a victimless crime.

Agreed, but white collar crimes have many victims, and should be punished harsher.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
allansthunder
Posts: 4
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 7:52:50 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 7:42:53 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 12/25/2015 3:37:49 AM, allansthunder wrote:
Selling drugs is not a victimless crime, as the buyer may not understand the full dangers of partaking in drugs before buying them. However, I do believe that it is not the governments responsibility to take away someones' freedoms even if its for their own personal good.

The real issue in selling drugs should not be seen in such a case where the buyer is the victim. Instead I believe it is contributing to the ongoing cultural decay we have here in America where EVERYONE is the victim.

Locking people in cages to prevent "cultural decay", that is some high values. Who should determine what is the supreior culture that should be protected? Let me guess, an elected politician.

I would hardly call disallowing drug sales as locking people in cages. However, who's to say murder is wrong? Is it only the elected politicians moral view that murder is wrong? Maybe if someone has a reason to kill and he does, it should be allowed since murder is only wrong subjectively.
Murder and Drug Sales are both NOT victimless crimes.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 8:10:54 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 7:44:19 AM, Chang29 wrote:

Agreed, but white collar crimes have many victims, and should be punished harsher.

Why would you say white collar crimes have many victims, which may or may not be true, but say conspiracy has no victims? Isn't the conspiracy to have one?
My work here is, finally, done.
Chang29
Posts: 732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 11:48:27 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 7:52:50 AM, allansthunder wrote:
At 12/25/2015 7:42:53 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 12/25/2015 3:37:49 AM, allansthunder wrote:
Selling drugs is not a victimless crime, as the buyer may not understand the full dangers of partaking in drugs before buying them. However, I do believe that it is not the governments responsibility to take away someones' freedoms even if its for their own personal good.

The real issue in selling drugs should not be seen in such a case where the buyer is the victim. Instead I believe it is contributing to the ongoing cultural decay we have here in America where EVERYONE is the victim.

Locking people in cages to prevent "cultural decay", that is some high values. Who should determine what is the superior culture that should be protected? Let me guess, an elected politician.

I would hardly call disallowing drug sales as locking people in cages. However, who's to say murder is wrong? Is it only the elected politicians moral view that murder is wrong? Maybe if someone has a reason to kill and he does, it should be allowed since murder is only wrong subjectively.
Murder and Drug Sales are both NOT victimless crimes.

Punishing with prison is equal to putting in cages.

Murder has a victim, one party did not want to be dead. In drug sales both parties are voluntary participants and receive a perceived gain.

Not one person on this list murdered anyone, most were conspiracy and possession, both of which are crimes that hurt no one.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Chang29
Posts: 732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 11:51:42 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 8:10:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/25/2015 7:44:19 AM, Chang29 wrote:

Agreed, but white collar crimes have many victims, and should be punished harsher.

Why would you say white collar crimes have many victims, which may or may not be true, but say conspiracy has no victims? Isn't the conspiracy to have one?

Many white collar crimes like fraud and embezzlement are the same as stalling, that is a crime against a person's property including money. Theft of property has a victim.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/25/2015 1:31:45 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 11:51:42 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 12/25/2015 8:10:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/25/2015 7:44:19 AM, Chang29 wrote:

Agreed, but white collar crimes have many victims, and should be punished harsher.

Why would you say white collar crimes have many victims, which may or may not be true, but say conspiracy has no victims? Isn't the conspiracy to have one?

Many white collar crimes like fraud and embezzlement are the same as stalling, that is a crime against a person's property including money. Theft of property has a victim.

I'm not sure what you mean by stalling; that is a new term to me.
Why does fraud have a victim, exactly? Is it not buyer beware? If I am a business owner, and I keep fraudulant books to secure loans, is there a victim, if I pay them back? Is there really a victim, if these fraudulant books appear to show my company is afloat, when they are not, and instead of closing the doors this year, it is next year?

What about other white collar crimes, like tax evasion?
My work here is, finally, done.
Chang29
Posts: 732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/26/2015 12:29:21 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 1:31:45 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/25/2015 11:51:42 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 12/25/2015 8:10:54 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/25/2015 7:44:19 AM, Chang29 wrote:

Agreed, but white collar crimes have many victims, and should be punished harsher.

Why would you say white collar crimes have many victims, which may or may not be true, but say conspiracy has no victims? Isn't the conspiracy to have one?

Many white collar crimes like fraud and embezzlement are the same as stalling, that is a crime against a person's property including money. Theft of property has a victim.

I'm not sure what you mean by stalling; that is a new term to me.

Wrong word, should have been stealing.

Why does fraud have a victim, exactly? Is it not buyer beware? If I am a business owner, and I keep fraudulant books to secure loans, is there a victim, if I pay them back? Is there really a victim, if these fraudulant books appear to show my company is afloat, when they are not, and instead of closing the doors this year, it is next year?

If sole proprietorship that should not be a crime, if the company is misrepresenting itself to others to gain inventors that is the same as theft.


What about other white collar crimes, like tax evasion?

Tax nonpayment is a deferment subject.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/26/2015 1:24:45 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/25/2015 2:04:33 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/25/2015 1:46:39 AM, Chang29 wrote:
Obama commutes sentences for victimless crimes

http://www.civilrights.org...

President Obama does very little that I support, but commuting sentences for victimless crime I support. Looking at the crimes, I noticed one armed robbery (crime with victim), most of the rest conspiracy and/or possession offense (victimless crime). Conspiracy and possession crimes provide law enforcement easy opportunities for entrapment. Law enforcement should be on request like other emergency services, when a victim needs help.

For those that object, explain how anyone is harmed during conspiracy and possession, crimes of talking and holding. After a plan harms another or an item is used then prosecute for the harm done.

Computations should be immediate, some are Apr 2016 many must wait until after the election. Maybe spineless democrats are worried about a Willy Horton incident.

He should release all drug dealers and other white collar criminals.

The term "white collar criminal" usually refers to, e.g., embezzlers. Are you certain you're stating your true desire?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,251
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/26/2015 2:11:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 1:24:45 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 12/25/2015 2:04:33 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/25/2015 1:46:39 AM, Chang29 wrote:
Obama commutes sentences for victimless crimes

http://www.civilrights.org...

President Obama does very little that I support, but commuting sentences for victimless crime I support. Looking at the crimes, I noticed one armed robbery (crime with victim), most of the rest conspiracy and/or possession offense (victimless crime). Conspiracy and possession crimes provide law enforcement easy opportunities for entrapment. Law enforcement should be on request like other emergency services, when a victim needs help.

For those that object, explain how anyone is harmed during conspiracy and possession, crimes of talking and holding. After a plan harms another or an item is used then prosecute for the harm done.

Computations should be immediate, some are Apr 2016 many must wait until after the election. Maybe spineless democrats are worried about a Willy Horton incident.

He should release all drug dealers and other white collar criminals.

The term "white collar criminal" usually refers to, e.g., embezzlers. Are you certain you're stating your true desire?

No, I meant victimless, I agree it's a serious omission.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/27/2015 3:05:20 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/26/2015 12:29:21 AM, Chang29 wrote:

Why does fraud have a victim, exactly? Is it not buyer beware? If I am a business owner, and I keep fraudulant books to secure loans, is there a victim, if I pay them back? Is there really a victim, if these fraudulant books appear to show my company is afloat, when they are not, and instead of closing the doors this year, it is next year?

If sole proprietorship that should not be a crime,
why? Can you not steal from yourself? Does your fraud not affect others, like tax agencies, creditors/debtors, investors, or employees? It can very much affect them.

if the company is misrepresenting itself to others to gain inventors that is the same as theft.
Why, exactly?
After the IPO, unless the company is issuing MORE stock, then it is still buyer beware. How often do you think this actually occurs? Just in case you didn't know, if I buy XYZ stock on the NYSE, that money does NOT go to XYZ. So, I am not sure how the fraud hurts investors, if the company is lying as a deferment.
I've actually never understood why corporations care so much about their stock price.


What about other white collar crimes, like tax evasion?

Tax nonpayment is a deferment subject.
Not if it is never paid.
My work here is, finally, done.
Chang29
Posts: 732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/27/2015 5:39:04 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/27/2015 3:05:20 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/26/2015 12:29:21 AM, Chang29 wrote:

Why does fraud have a victim, exactly? Is it not buyer beware? If I am a business owner, and I keep fraudulent books to secure loans, is there a victim, if I pay them back? Is there really a victim, if these fraudulent books appear to show my company is afloat, when they are not, and instead of closing the doors this year, it is next year?

If sole proprietorship that should not be a crime,
why? Can you not steal from yourself? Does your fraud not affect others, like tax agencies, creditors/debtors, investors, or employees? It can very much affect them.

It may not be a good practice, but a person can lie to themselves about their business, but do not lie to others. You can not steal from yourself. I will not address taxes. I did not consider sole proprietor's creditors in that case fraud is wrong. As long as that employment contracts are honored I see little problem.


if the company is misrepresenting itself to others to gain inventors that is the same as theft.
Why, exactly?

The investors or buyers of any produce should have confidence in the product. If a company states an untrue claim that is no different than taking money from a person's pocket. I consider it the same crime.

After the IPO, unless the company is issuing MORE stock, then it is still buyer beware. How often do you think this actually occurs? Just in case you didn't know, if I buy XYZ stock on the NYSE, that money does NOT go to XYZ. So, I am not sure how the fraud hurts investors, if the company is lying as a deferment.

An investor is paying for a product, if the product is not as promised that is fraud. Investors are hurt when they can not analyze a company effectively.

I've actually never understood why corporations care so much about their stock price.

Investors want yield, if a company does not pay dividends then the stock price needs to be increasing. Also, executive pay can be tied to stock price.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/27/2015 3:48:33 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/27/2015 5:39:04 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 12/27/2015 3:05:20 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 12/26/2015 12:29:21 AM, Chang29 wrote:

Why does fraud have a victim, exactly? Is it not buyer beware? If I am a business owner, and I keep fraudulent books to secure loans, is there a victim, if I pay them back? Is there really a victim, if these fraudulent books appear to show my company is afloat, when they are not, and instead of closing the doors this year, it is next year?

If sole proprietorship that should not be a crime,
why? Can you not steal from yourself? Does your fraud not affect others, like tax agencies, creditors/debtors, investors, or employees? It can very much affect them.

It may not be a good practice, but a person can lie to themselves about their business, but do not lie to others. You can not steal from yourself. I will not address taxes. I did not consider sole proprietor's creditors in that case fraud is wrong. As long as that employment contracts are honored I see little problem.

So, if you cannot steal from yourself, and by doing so, you then tell an employee of yours there is no money in the company for a raise, which is true, since you funneled it out, there is nothing wrong there, right?


if the company is misrepresenting itself to others to gain inventors that is the same as theft.
Why, exactly?

The investors or buyers of any produce should have confidence in the product. If a company states an untrue claim that is no different than taking money from a person's pocket. I consider it the same crime.

So, who is vicitm in this scenario:
XYZ is cooking the books. Investor A, unknowing of this, sells his shares to Investor B. The scheme ends, and XYZ is bankrupt, and Investor B lost his investment.

INvestor A is the benefactor in this scenario, not XYZ, so should he be persecuted? He operated with the same knowledge as INvestor B, and operated on good faith. So, while one of the investors was going to be screwed, does the company gain anything from the fraud? No. Is there a true victim? No, because the victim is deferred. It would have, should have been A, but was B.

After the IPO, unless the company is issuing MORE stock, then it is still buyer beware. How often do you think this actually occurs? Just in case you didn't know, if I buy XYZ stock on the NYSE, that money does NOT go to XYZ. So, I am not sure how the fraud hurts investors, if the company is lying as a deferment.

An investor is paying for a product, if the product is not as promised that is fraud. Investors are hurt when they can not analyze a company effectively.

The product is owning shares in a company. That is 100% true. The issue is the worth, the metrics, used in valuation of said stock. The product isn't fraudulant, just the price.

I've actually never understood why corporations care so much about their stock price.

Investors want yield, if a company does not pay dividends then the stock price needs to be increasing. Also, executive pay can be tied to stock price.

Yes, pay can be, and that makes sense why the CEO would care. However, what the investors want is largely irrelevant, in my mind, as the company already has the money.
My work here is, finally, done.