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How do you quantify "Big Government"?

BrendanD19
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12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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12/30/2015 10:08:02 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

Something about murdering baby's in bathtubs or something.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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12/30/2015 10:09:03 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

How much it regulates the market
How big government spending is (military, healthcare etc...)
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
tajshar2k
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12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
BrendanD19
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12/30/2015 10:15:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:09:03 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

How much it regulates the market
How big government spending is (military, healthcare etc...)

But market regulation isa way of providing economic security, which is one of the jobs of the state, is it not?
And isn't spending dependent on what is needed, the state of the economy and the size of the country? A country with more people will spend more money. Thats just simple logic.
BrendanD19
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12/30/2015 10:17:03 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Actually Switzerland has a VERY strong welfare state, and its whole governmental frameworks is different. Switzerland is a fusion of direct and representative democracy. The National government only serves to manage things like the welfare state, public services and the military.
TBR
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12/30/2015 10:20:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Its a country of 8 million people. Yea, the council is small, but what would you expect?
Death23
Posts: 780
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12/30/2015 10:22:02 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

Government spending relative to GDP could be one method; Total tax burden relative to GDP; If you want to quantify the degree of intrusiveness of regulations, I suppose doing a scale of 1-10 for each particular aspect of people's lives that are being regulated, weighted with respect to the total man-hours spent engaging in those activities by the population as a whole... The 1-10 scale could be used to compare different governments.
BrendanD19
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12/30/2015 10:26:35 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

We must also remember that poverty has a lot to do with living standards and in the Nordic nations the living standards are VERY high. The poverty threshold there is much higher than in most of the US.
BrendanD19
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12/30/2015 10:33:23 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:22:02 PM, Death23 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

Government spending relative to GDP could be one method; Total tax burden relative to GDP; If you want to quantify the degree of intrusiveness of regulations, I suppose doing a scale of 1-10 for each particular aspect of people's lives that are being regulated, weighted with respect to the total man-hours spent engaging in those activities by the population as a whole... The 1-10 scale could be used to compare different governments.

Government spending and GDP are tied to the economy, so rating it by this, wouldn't the alleged size of government be tied to the economy? Lets just say that the economy went into a slump an the GDP declined. Whenever that happens, government spending always rises. So even if nothing else changed, we would suddenly have a "big government"
And tax burden to GDP? Taxes are based on income, so how would that work? And taxes are necessary and there are numerous types.
But most regulations are on industries, not people. How would that work? Because you could use the global freedom indexes, but those are for political, press, economic and social freedoms. And by weighing those (which I've done) the number 1 nation is Australia, and Sweden is number 2, and a lot of the people I hear whining about Big government claim Australia and Sweden are examples of "Big government".
BrendanD19
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12/30/2015 10:35:01 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:20:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Its a country of 8 million people. Yea, the council is small, but what would you expect?

What? No, I mean that Switzerland LITERALLY has direct democracy.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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12/30/2015 10:44:07 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:15:34 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:09:03 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

How much it regulates the market
How big government spending is (military, healthcare etc...)

But market regulation isa way of providing economic security, which is one of the jobs of the state, is it not?

Of course, but market regulation doesn't just do that, especially in the U.S. The market is too over-regulated, and it costs the economy billions of dollars annually. Corporate crooks still get away with it, so it's a lose lose situation for Americans.

And isn't spending dependent on what is needed, the state of the economy and the size of the country? A country with more people will spend more money. Thats just simple logic.

Definitely, but you I'm not saying we should cut spending that's adequate for 4000 people, I'm saying the U.S federal government could cut spending in areas that aren't really needed, and could be handled better at a state or local level.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,681
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12/30/2015 10:45:38 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

Usually measured by the amount of influence the government has over the economy. Such as nationalized industries, taxes, and regulations. One could consider China's economy to be centered around "big government" given it's influence and monopolization over the economy.

However, it's often overused by people complaining about paying taxes :/
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
tajshar2k
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12/30/2015 10:47:08 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:17:03 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Actually Switzerland has a VERY strong welfare state, and its whole governmental frameworks is different. Switzerland is a fusion of direct and representative democracy. The National government only serves to manage things like the welfare state, public services and the military.

That doesn't change the fact it has low taxes, and is more free market than the U.S.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
BrendanD19
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12/30/2015 10:48:22 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:44:07 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:15:34 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:09:03 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

How much it regulates the market
How big government spending is (military, healthcare etc...)

But market regulation isa way of providing economic security, which is one of the jobs of the state, is it not?

Of course, but market regulation doesn't just do that, especially in the U.S. The market is too over-regulated, and it costs the economy billions of dollars annually. Corporate crooks still get away with it, so it's a lose lose situation for Americans.

So might it be better to have better regulations, rather than fewer regulations? Glass Stegall worked out and no one was hurt but corporate fat cats. Same with the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.


And isn't spending dependent on what is needed, the state of the economy and the size of the country? A country with more people will spend more money. Thats just simple logic.

Definitely, but you I'm not saying we should cut spending that's adequate for 4000 people, I'm saying the U.S federal government could cut spending in areas that aren't really needed, and could be handled better at a state or local level.

Like what? I understand cutting funding for defense because we already spend to much there, but I am not saying make that a local thing. And what if the local government cannot afford it?
And why not just devolve more powers to the people, make the democratic process more direct? Not as much as Switzerland, but why not allow the people to vote in national referendums on certain issues?
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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12/30/2015 10:48:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:20:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Its a country of 8 million people. Yea, the council is small, but what would you expect?

The point I was trying to make is that, the Nordic countries aren't all that great, considering the Swiss do a better job. I rather pay low taxes and have a high standard of living, rather than paying 40% taxes.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
BrendanD19
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12/30/2015 10:51:03 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:47:08 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:17:03 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Actually Switzerland has a VERY strong welfare state, and its whole governmental frameworks is different. Switzerland is a fusion of direct and representative democracy. The National government only serves to manage things like the welfare state, public services and the military.

That doesn't change the fact it has low taxes, and is more free market than the U.S.

Actually we have lower taxes then the Swiss. They do however have very kind tax exemptions for foreigners and foreign companies with bank accounts there, which I would call a d--k move by them.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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12/30/2015 10:52:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:48:29 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:20:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Its a country of 8 million people. Yea, the council is small, but what would you expect?

The point I was trying to make is that, the Nordic countries aren't all that great, considering the Swiss do a better job. I rather pay low taxes and have a high standard of living, rather than paying 40% taxes.

Interestingly enough... They are not that great looking at tax by GDP
https://en.wikipedia.org...
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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12/30/2015 10:52:06 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:48:29 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:20:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Its a country of 8 million people. Yea, the council is small, but what would you expect?

The point I was trying to make is that, the Nordic countries aren't all that great, considering the Swiss do a better job. I rather pay low taxes and have a high standard of living, rather than paying 40% taxes.

Nordic nations have higher living standards though, and the swiss pay much higher tax rates the the Cantons, because they are a confederation.
UtherPenguin
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12/30/2015 10:56:37 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:48:29 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:20:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Its a country of 8 million people. Yea, the council is small, but what would you expect?

The point I was trying to make is that, the Nordic countries aren't all that great, considering the Swiss do a better job. I rather pay low taxes and have a high standard of living, rather than paying 40% taxes.

Cost of living in Norway vs Switzerland: http://www.numbeo.com...

GDP per Capita of Norway: https://www.google.ca...

GDP per Capita of Switzerland: https://www.google.ca...

Norway's average GDP per Capita is at least 20k larger that Switzerland, along side an overall lower cost living.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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12/30/2015 11:03:43 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:56:37 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:48:29 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:20:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Its a country of 8 million people. Yea, the council is small, but what would you expect?

The point I was trying to make is that, the Nordic countries aren't all that great, considering the Swiss do a better job. I rather pay low taxes and have a high standard of living, rather than paying 40% taxes.

Cost of living in Norway vs Switzerland: http://www.numbeo.com...

GDP per Capita of Norway: https://www.google.ca...

GDP per Capita of Switzerland: https://www.google.ca...

Norway's average GDP per Capita is at least 20k larger that Switzerland, along side an overall lower cost living.

I think the US would probably find a place somewhere in between, because of the governmental structure, since Norway is a Unitary state, and Switzerland is a confederation. We are a Federal Nation
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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12/30/2015 11:04:37 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:48:22 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:44:07 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:15:34 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:09:03 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

How much it regulates the market
How big government spending is (military, healthcare etc...)

But market regulation isa way of providing economic security, which is one of the jobs of the state, is it not?

Of course, but market regulation doesn't just do that, especially in the U.S. The market is too over-regulated, and it costs the economy billions of dollars annually. Corporate crooks still get away with it, so it's a lose lose situation for Americans.

So might it be better to have better regulations, rather than fewer regulations? Glass Stegall worked out and no one was hurt but corporate fat cats. Same with the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

Those aren't really what I'm talking about. Those are designed to prevent monopolies, and if anything, help the economy.

http://freebeacon.com...

This is a good article.

Also this index will give us some good insight.

http://www.heritage.org...

And isn't spending dependent on what is needed, the state of the economy and the size of the country? A country with more people will spend more money. Thats just simple logic.

Definitely, but you I'm not saying we should cut spending that's adequate for 4000 people, I'm saying the U.S federal government could cut spending in areas that aren't really needed, and could be handled better at a state or local level.

Like what? I understand cutting funding for defense because we already spend to much there, but I am not saying make that a local thing. And what if the local government cannot afford it?

Defense spending, I'm a bit cautious off cutting, due to the role the U.S plays as a Super Power, but I wouldn't support increasing it. Maybe cut spending in some areas, but overall I believe the our National Defense should be one of our top priorities.

Ok, I start with a few things. First welfare. Our welfare spending is about 1 triillion dollars annually. I don't think many people will disagree its a huge failure, given how many people are dependent on it, and our poverty rates are increasing. What libertarians support is introducing something such as a guaranteed Income. What this is, is that it gives a guaranteed income to every American which is good enough to live a decent life. (about 25K)

http://lawstreetmedia.com...

This would save us billions of dollars an year, and would creat an incentive for people to work. A similar thing was done in a community inIndia, and positive results came.

Another thing I like is the EITC aka Negative tax. It lessens the burden of poor income earners, but giving them tax breaks. I see this as a much more effective idea than minimum wages, because it doesn't violate business rights, and studies have shown it reducing poverty.

And why not just devolve more powers to the people, make the democratic process more direct? Not as much as Switzerland, but why not allow the people to vote in national referendums on certain issues?

That's basically what a reducing the size of government means. When things are done on a local level, it's more democratic, and local governments can respond to the wishes of their citizens more accurately. When in Switzerland, things are done at a local level aka Cantons.

That's a good idea, but unfortunately it would cost a lot of money.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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12/30/2015 11:06:44 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 10:56:37 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:48:29 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:20:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Its a country of 8 million people. Yea, the council is small, but what would you expect?

The point I was trying to make is that, the Nordic countries aren't all that great, considering the Swiss do a better job. I rather pay low taxes and have a high standard of living, rather than paying 40% taxes.

Cost of living in Norway vs Switzerland: http://www.numbeo.com...

GDP per Capita of Norway: https://www.google.ca...

GDP per Capita of Switzerland: https://www.google.ca...

Norway's average GDP per Capita is at least 20k larger that Switzerland, along side an overall lower cost living.

https://en.wikipedia.org... Swiss make more money.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
BrendanD19
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12/30/2015 11:34:42 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 11:04:37 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:48:22 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:44:07 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:15:34 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:09:03 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

How much it regulates the market
How big government spending is (military, healthcare etc...)

But market regulation isa way of providing economic security, which is one of the jobs of the state, is it not?

Of course, but market regulation doesn't just do that, especially in the U.S. The market is too over-regulated, and it costs the economy billions of dollars annually. Corporate crooks still get away with it, so it's a lose lose situation for Americans.

So might it be better to have better regulations, rather than fewer regulations? Glass Stegall worked out and no one was hurt but corporate fat cats. Same with the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

Those aren't really what I'm talking about. Those are designed to prevent monopolies, and if anything, help the economy.

http://freebeacon.com...

This is a good article.

Also this index will give us some good insight.

http://www.heritage.org...

And isn't spending dependent on what is needed, the state of the economy and the size of the country? A country with more people will spend more money. Thats just simple logic.

Definitely, but you I'm not saying we should cut spending that's adequate for 4000 people, I'm saying the U.S federal government could cut spending in areas that aren't really needed, and could be handled better at a state or local level.

Like what? I understand cutting funding for defense because we already spend to much there, but I am not saying make that a local thing. And what if the local government cannot afford it?

Defense spending, I'm a bit cautious off cutting, due to the role the U.S plays as a Super Power, but I wouldn't support increasing it. Maybe cut spending in some areas, but overall I believe the our National Defense should be one of our top priorities.

Ok, I start with a few things. First welfare. Our welfare spending is about 1 triillion dollars annually. I don't think many people will disagree its a huge failure, given how many people are dependent on it, and our poverty rates are increasing. What libertarians support is introducing something such as a guaranteed Income. What this is, is that it gives a guaranteed income to every American which is good enough to live a decent life. (about 25K)

http://lawstreetmedia.com...

This would save us billions of dollars an year, and would creat an incentive for people to work. A similar thing was done in a community inIndia, and positive results came.

Another thing I like is the EITC aka Negative tax. It lessens the burden of poor income earners, but giving them tax breaks. I see this as a much more effective idea than minimum wages, because it doesn't violate business rights, and studies have shown it reducing poverty.

And why not just devolve more powers to the people, make the democratic process more direct? Not as much as Switzerland, but why not allow the people to vote in national referendums on certain issues?

That's basically what a reducing the size of government means. When things are done on a local level, it's more democratic, and local governments can respond to the wishes of their citizens more accurately. When in Switzerland, things are done at a local level aka Cantons.

That's a good idea, but unfortunately it would cost a lot of money.

The Free Beacon cites a study by the Competitive Enterprise Institute, which is one of what I call the study mills. Think Tanks like them, Heritage and CATO take in massive donations from large corporations and billionaires and in exchange they just pump out studies which support the agenda of those corporations by redacting important information, removing context, and selective sourcing.
The same goes for Heritage which is one of the worst offenders of that.

But I think you have a better idea of what "Limited government" means. Most people I know who whine about "Big government" non-stop, can't give concrete examples of what it is or what to do about it. Jefferson talked not about big government, but about concentrated wealth and power, which he said were the enemies of the republic (if he were here today, he would flip). I think you and I both agree what we really need is this country is more democracy.

The Guaranteed minimum income I am becoming increasingly supportive of, however I think that will need to be a long term thing, that will be implemented over a decade by expanding social security and slowly phasing out welfare, food stamps and other programs. I have seen evidence saying it would cost us less than our current programs, just like how a single payer system would save us money on health care: but cutting out the excessive restrictions, extra bureaucracies and paper work. By guaranteeing it to everyone, all of the extra restrictions and requirements go out the window and that saves a lot of cash. And you know what that cash could be used for? Expanding the benefits, making the service higher quality, or creating an emergency trust fund, in case the economy slumps.
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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12/30/2015 11:38:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 11:06:44 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:56:37 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:48:29 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:20:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:11:26 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

If you look at countries like Switzerland, it's federal government is very small, and it's only there to protect their civil liberties, and at a bare minimum give welfare. It has very low taxes, and is better than the Nordic countries when it comes to unemployment, poverty, crime.

Its a country of 8 million people. Yea, the council is small, but what would you expect?

The point I was trying to make is that, the Nordic countries aren't all that great, considering the Swiss do a better job. I rather pay low taxes and have a high standard of living, rather than paying 40% taxes.

Cost of living in Norway vs Switzerland: http://www.numbeo.com...

GDP per Capita of Norway: https://www.google.ca...

GDP per Capita of Switzerland: https://www.google.ca...

Norway's average GDP per Capita is at least 20k larger that Switzerland, along side an overall lower cost living.

https://en.wikipedia.org... Swiss make more money.

But the living standard are higher.
I also just discovered that in some Cantons, the tax rates are around 40%! That more than doubles the national tax rate (around 29%). But just like in the US, the welfare programs are heavily devolved, only even more so than in the US, or even in the UK with the NHS (which I think is a model for US health care programs in the future).
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,382
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12/30/2015 11:45:08 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 11:34:42 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 11:04:37 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:48:22 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:44:07 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:15:34 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:09:03 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
I alway hear people whining about "big government", and try as I might, I simply do not understand what they mean. I just don't understand how you Quantify government. I can understand how you measure authority, which is based on respect for human rights, and accountability, but "Big government"? How do you quantify government?

How much it regulates the market
How big government spending is (military, healthcare etc...)

But market regulation isa way of providing economic security, which is one of the jobs of the state, is it not?

Of course, but market regulation doesn't just do that, especially in the U.S. The market is too over-regulated, and it costs the economy billions of dollars annually. Corporate crooks still get away with it, so it's a lose lose situation for Americans.

So might it be better to have better regulations, rather than fewer regulations? Glass Stegall worked out and no one was hurt but corporate fat cats. Same with the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

Those aren't really what I'm talking about. Those are designed to prevent monopolies, and if anything, help the economy.

http://freebeacon.com...

This is a good article.

Also this index will give us some good insight.

http://www.heritage.org...

And isn't spending dependent on what is needed, the state of the economy and the size of the country? A country with more people will spend more money. Thats just simple logic.

Definitely, but you I'm not saying we should cut spending that's adequate for 4000 people, I'm saying the U.S federal government could cut spending in areas that aren't really needed, and could be handled better at a state or local level.

Like what? I understand cutting funding for defense because we already spend to much there, but I am not saying make that a local thing. And what if the local government cannot afford it?

Defense spending, I'm a bit cautious off cutting, due to the role the U.S plays as a Super Power, but I wouldn't support increasing it. Maybe cut spending in some areas, but overall I believe the our National Defense should be one of our top priorities.

Ok, I start with a few things. First welfare. Our welfare spending is about 1 triillion dollars annually. I don't think many people will disagree its a huge failure, given how many people are dependent on it, and our poverty rates are increasing. What libertarians support is introducing something such as a guaranteed Income. What this is, is that it gives a guaranteed income to every American which is good enough to live a decent life. (about 25K)

http://lawstreetmedia.com...

This would save us billions of dollars an year, and would creat an incentive for people to work. A similar thing was done in a community inIndia, and positive results came.

Another thing I like is the EITC aka Negative tax. It lessens the burden of poor income earners, but giving them tax breaks. I see this as a much more effective idea than minimum wages, because it doesn't violate business rights, and studies have shown it reducing poverty.

And why not just devolve more powers to the people, make the democratic process more direct? Not as much as Switzerland, but why not allow the people to vote in national referendums on certain issues?

That's basically what a reducing the size of government means. When things are done on a local level, it's more democratic, and local governments can respond to the wishes of their citizens more accurately. When in Switzerland, things are done at a local level aka Cantons.

That's a good idea, but unfortunately it would cost a lot of money.

The Free Beacon cites a study by the Competitive Enterprise Institute, which is one of what I call the study mills. Think Tanks like them, Heritage and CATO take in massive donations from large corporations and billionaires and in exchange they just pump out studies which support the agenda of those corporations by redacting important information, removing context, and selective sourcing.
The same goes for Heritage which is one of the worst offenders of that.

So, what do we go by? This seems to be the only study shows these data, so this is the only to understand what's going on.


But I think you have a better idea of what "Limited government" means. Most people I know who whine about "Big government" non-stop, can't give concrete examples of what it is or what to do about it. Jefferson talked not about big government, but about concentrated wealth and power, which he said were the enemies of the republic (if he were here today, he would flip). I think you and I both agree what we really need is this country is more democracy.

Yes, we need more democracy. And we can do that, by limiting government like I said before. I'm not trying to say a 1% increase in taxes is "Big government" or "Communism, I'm saying there are genuinue places we can cut spending in the federal government, since handling it locally is more effective


The Guaranteed minimum income I am becoming increasingly supportive of, however I think that will need to be a long term thing, that will be implemented over a decade by expanding social security and slowly phasing out welfare, food stamps and other programs. I have seen evidence saying it would cost us less than our current programs, just like how a single payer system would save us money on health care: but cutting out the excessive restrictions, extra bureaucracies and paper work. By guaranteeing it to everyone, all of the extra restrictions and requirements go out the window and that saves a lot of cash. And you know what that cash could be used for? Expanding the benefits, making the service higher quality, or creating an emergency trust fund, in case the economy slumps.

See, I used to be in full support for single payer, but now I'm undecided. I read a lot about what they use in Singapore, and Switzerland, and I seem to like it very much. It's extremely cheap, and 100% of it's citizens can get it. The problem with Single Payer like I mentioned in that other thread, is that it sacrifices innovation. This is what is used to research vaccines, produce new medical equipment. This is something the U.S is still a world leader in. Who found the vaccine for Polio? Chickenpox? All Americans.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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12/31/2015 12:01:51 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Just out of curiousity, why do you think "handling it locally is more effective"? Why do you think innovation would suffer in a single payer environment?
BrendanD19
Posts: 2,043
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12/31/2015 1:03:22 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/30/2015 11:45:08 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 11:34:42 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 11:04:37 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:48:22 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:44:07 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:15:34 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:09:03 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 12/30/2015 10:06:00 PM, BrendanD19 wrote:

Sorry to delete the previous comments, I was running out of space.
But what should you do? Find a better study, or at least read that one with caution and skepticism.

But I don't see how single payer would "limit innovation". Vaccines would still be developed because there is a need for them. And Single Payer is simply an insurance based solution. Medicare for All is what we are talking about here.
Pharmaceutical companies would still be private and so would private research institutes.
And the US is losing our leadership in this area anyway (probably thanks to our underfunded schools.)
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu...
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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12/31/2015 1:45:28 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
An easy way to quantify it is to look at it in terms of government expenditure as a percentage of GDP.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/31/2015 12:13:22 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/31/2015 12:01:51 AM, TBR wrote:
Just out of curiousity, why do you think "handling it locally is more effective"? Why do you think innovation would suffer in a single payer environment?

100 people competing to provide a better service than one institution with no competition? We can look at how VA hospitals are run to see what single payer care looks like, and true competition doesn't exist but we can look at the 4 companies competing in healt insurance to see what more competition looks like.