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The State and its Genesis

Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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10/18/2010 8:25:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
"What, then, is the state as a sociological concept? The state, completely in its genesis, essentially and almost completely during the first stages of its existence, is a social institution, forced by a victorious group of men on a defeated group, with the sole purpose of regulating the dominion of the victorious group over the vanquished, and securing itself against revolt from within and attacks from abroad. Teleologically, this dominion had no other purpose than the economic exploitation of the vanquished by the victors." - Franz Oppenheimer[1]

1 http://www.franz-oppenheimer.de...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Caramel
Posts: 855
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10/18/2010 10:25:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
There are no honorable bases for the state or for property for that matter. These things came from beginnings that were unjust and we ignore that when we employ them.
no comment
Reasoning
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10/18/2010 12:50:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/18/2010 10:25:51 AM, Caramel wrote:
There are no honorable bases for the state or for property for that matter. These things came from beginnings that were unjust and we ignore that when we employ them.

"Although this is one part of the content of the state concept, there is another, which in the beginning is of much greater magnitude: the idea of economic exploitation, the political means for the satisfaction of needs. The peasant surrenders a portion of the product of his labor, without any equivalent service in return. "In the beginning was the ground rent. "" - Franz Oppenheimer[1]

Thus was born property. Thus was born taxation.

1 http://www.franz-oppenheimer.de...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/18/2010 1:15:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Can you two get a room already? ^_^
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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10/18/2010 2:05:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/18/2010 1:15:35 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Can you two get a room already? ^_^

I wonder if one dictates the use of contraception or if they come to a mutual agreement of ribbed vs. safety.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Reasoning
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10/18/2010 6:03:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Where's Kleptin?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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10/18/2010 6:07:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/18/2010 6:05:31 PM, Sieben wrote:
Can communists play Monopoly? Or will they be executed for using cash and excluding each other from properties.

What are you talking about?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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10/18/2010 6:10:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/18/2010 6:09:03 PM, Sieben wrote:
Referring to outdatedness of communist arguments

Why are we talking about communism? And what does communism have to do with the Monopoly board game?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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10/18/2010 6:12:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I refuse to threadjack any more than we already are.

*COUGH*

I thought the first state was Egypt? Where nomadic herders, buff from their high protein diet, were able to repeatedly pillage the farmers, who had to remain stationary.
Things that are so interesting:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Sieben
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10/18/2010 6:13:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/18/2010 6:10:53 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 10/18/2010 6:09:03 PM, Sieben wrote:
Referring to outdatedness of communist arguments

Why are we talking about communism? And what does communism have to do with the Monopoly board game?

I'm asking if communists can play pretend capitalism. That is, if we live in a communist world, can we recreate any capitalism or will we be attacked...
Things that are so interesting:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Reasoning
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10/18/2010 6:16:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/18/2010 6:13:16 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 10/18/2010 6:10:53 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 10/18/2010 6:09:03 PM, Sieben wrote:
Referring to outdatedness of communist arguments

Why are we talking about communism? And what does communism have to do with the Monopoly board game?

I'm asking if communists can play pretend capitalism. That is, if we live in a communist world, can we recreate any capitalism or will we be attacked...

Why are we talking about communism?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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10/18/2010 6:20:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/18/2010 6:12:24 PM, Sieben wrote:
I refuse to threadjack any more than we already are.

*COUGH*

I thought the first state was Egypt? Where nomadic herders, buff from their high protein diet, were able to repeatedly pillage the farmers, who had to remain stationary.

I'm not sure what Oppenheimer would consider the first state.

Though he does have a wonderful metaphor:

"The state, however, comes into being through sexual propagation. All bisexual propagation is accomplished by the following process: The male element, a small, very active, mobile, vibrating cell—the spermatozoön—searches out a large inactive cell without mobility of its own—the ovum, or female principle—enters and fuses with it. From this process, there results an immense growth; that is to say, a wonderful differentiation with simultaneous integration. The inactive peasantry, bound by nature to their fields, is the ovum, the mobile tribe of herdsmen the spermatozoön, of this sociologic act of fecundation; and its resultant is the ripening of a higher social organism more fully differentiated in its organs, and much more complete in its integrations. It is easy to find further parallels. One may compare the border feuds to the manner in which innumerable spermatozoa swarm about the ovum until finally one, the strongest or most fortunate, discovers and conquers the micropyle. One may compare the almost magical attraction which the ovum has for the spermatozoön, to the no less magical power by which the herdsmen from the steppes are drawn into the cultivated plains." - Franz Oppenheimer[1]

1 http://oll.libertyfund.org...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran