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The term Pro-Life shouldn't be used

tajshar2k
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1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.

Simple as that.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
tajshar2k
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1/4/2016 2:40:55 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.


Simple as that.

Me personally I oppose abortion in 95% of circumstances. I believe that most are just irresponsible, and feel like they should have planned ahead. I also don't pretend to know everybody, because I know some people may have lost their jobs or something, and it makes no sense to give birth to a child, when you don't have a job.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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1/4/2016 3:15:09 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
inb4 someone says the term 'Pro-Choice' shouldn't be used, and that it's either pro-life or anti-life :P
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

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Diqiucun_Cunmin
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1/4/2016 3:50:21 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 3:15:09 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
inb4 someone says the term 'Pro-Choice' shouldn't be used, and that it's either pro-life or anti-life :P

But on a more serious note, the terms 'pro-choice' and 'pro-life' simply reflect competing construals of the issue. By suggesting that the term 'pro-life' shouldn't be used, you reveal your desire to stifle the alternative construal... which will neither improve the quality of discussion, nor compel pro-lifers to eschew their position (whichever your intention was).

The thing is, neither term is inherently wrong. One focuses on one side of the issue, and the other term shines the spotlight on the other side. Frankly, to suggest that one side is the 'correct' side is, IMHO, comparable to the blind men touching the elephant.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

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RyuuKyuzo
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1/4/2016 4:01:15 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
The Pro-choice/ Pro-life dialectic is the result of both sides taking an "agree to disagree" position on the terminology of the debate so that the actual merits of each side can be argued. We'd never get anywhere if we stayed hung-up on calling each other "anti-choice" and "anti-life".

Really we should call it "pro-abortion/ anti-abortion", but that's just not the way it turned out.
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Dilara
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1/4/2016 4:23:59 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
I see it as pro life and anti life. One side wants to save lives and the other side thinks its ok to kill lives that aren't wanted.
Casten
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1/4/2016 5:19:03 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
It's a compromise from both sides. Pro-abortionists would rather it be "pro choice, anti choice," and anti-abortionists would rather it be, "pro murder, anti murder."

So we call each side what it wants to be called. Pro choice, pro life. Voila.
imabench
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1/4/2016 5:57:03 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 4:23:59 AM, Dilara wrote:
I see it as pro life and anti life. One side wants to save lives and the other side thinks its ok to kill lives that aren't wanted.

^ Ignore the troll
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Death23
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1/4/2016 7:44:03 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.


Simple as that.

Eh at this point everyone knows what it means so we may as well use it.
Wylted
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1/4/2016 10:52:20 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.


Simple as that.

It shouldn't be called pro murder and anti murder. I mean one side wants a woman to be able to do what she wants with her body, if it's shooting into a crowd of people, fine. The other side wants to control a woman's body and doesn't care what she thinks.
Wylted
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1/4/2016 10:53:23 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 2:40:55 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.


Simple as that.

Me personally I oppose abortion in 95% of circumstances. I believe that most are just irresponsible, and feel like they should have planned ahead. I also don't pretend to know everybody, because I know some people may have lost their jobs or something, and it makes no sense to give birth to a child, when you don't have a job.

I judge them. I mean being in a rough spot, doesn't really justify murder.
tajshar2k
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1/4/2016 4:07:32 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 10:53:23 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/4/2016 2:40:55 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.


Simple as that.

Me personally I oppose abortion in 95% of circumstances. I believe that most are just irresponsible, and feel like they should have planned ahead. I also don't pretend to know everybody, because I know some people may have lost their jobs or something, and it makes no sense to give birth to a child, when you don't have a job.

I judge them. I mean being in a rough spot, doesn't really justify murder.

it's not murder though. Murder and killing are two different things.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
TBR
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1/4/2016 4:34:15 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 4:07:32 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/4/2016 10:53:23 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/4/2016 2:40:55 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.


Simple as that.

Me personally I oppose abortion in 95% of circumstances. I believe that most are just irresponsible, and feel like they should have planned ahead. I also don't pretend to know everybody, because I know some people may have lost their jobs or something, and it makes no sense to give birth to a child, when you don't have a job.

I judge them. I mean being in a rough spot, doesn't really justify murder.

it's not murder though. Murder and killing are two different things.

Murder and killing are in fact very different things.

Now, the question at hand is about political phrasing - for both sides really. I have long ago given up trying to use childish taunts like "anti-choice" or the likes. I can agree that what many pro-life activists preach and do are anything but pro-life, but it only makes me satisfied to say anything about it. "Pro-life" is what they have taken as their moniker, and I will use it. I hear "anti-life" or "pro-abortion" from the other side way more than I hear similar terms from the pro-choice side, and that generally makes me happy.

The pro-life side of the argument is run primarily on emotion. The arguments are generally exhausted after you look at pictures of fetuses. It is very natural for them to turn to some sort of ad hominem - "you are a monster". Well, I will be the monster to them, no skin off my nose.
Dilara
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1/4/2016 4:44:24 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 5:57:03 AM, imabench wrote:
At 1/4/2016 4:23:59 AM, Dilara wrote:
I see it as pro life and anti life. One side wants to save lives and the other side thinks its ok to kill lives that aren't wanted.

^ Ignore the troll

Right. the trolls name is imabench and he's a complete idiot.
Robkwoods
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1/4/2016 4:45:15 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.


Simple as that.

We are alway slaves to general terms, for the sake of not have to fully explain our position everytime we have a conversion with some one.

At this point in the abortion realm the argument is, whether it(baby, fetus, amoeba, etc) is a human life or not.

We could probably establish some better terms, but what are they?

Pro-life is fine, because they believe that the fetus is a life and has negative rights.

Pro-choice is fine too. Pro-abortion can have a negative connotation, so I see the dissent with the term. Pro-Mother... eh, might as well stick with Pro-choice; who believes they have the right to determine whether or not it(baby, fetus, amoeba, etc) is a human life.

Anti-anything only seeks to intentionally demean and mislead, especially when usually as a defining term.
imabench
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1/4/2016 5:00:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 3:15:09 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
inb4 someone says the term 'Pro-Choice' shouldn't be used, and that it's either pro-life or anti-life :P

At 1/4/2016 4:23:59 AM, Dilara wrote:
I see it as pro life and anti life.

^ Its like she doesnt even know when she's making an idiot out of herself XDDD
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Wylted
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1/4/2016 5:42:39 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 4:07:32 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/4/2016 10:53:23 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/4/2016 2:40:55 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.


Simple as that.

Me personally I oppose abortion in 95% of circumstances. I believe that most are just irresponsible, and feel like they should have planned ahead. I also don't pretend to know everybody, because I know some people may have lost their jobs or something, and it makes no sense to give birth to a child, when you don't have a job.

I judge them. I mean being in a rough spot, doesn't really justify murder.

it's not murder though. Murder and killing are two different things.

How would you differentiate the two. I wouldn't call two armies fighting each other murderers, maybe killers, but why the distinction with abortion?
Vox_Veritas
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1/4/2016 5:48:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.


Simple as that.

If Pro-Life shouldn't be used as a term for the anti-abortion camp then neither should Pro-Choice for the pro-abortion camp.
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Wylted
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1/4/2016 5:48:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 4:34:15 PM, TBR wrote:
At 1/4/2016 4:07:32 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/4/2016 10:53:23 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/4/2016 2:40:55 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.


Simple as that.

Me personally I oppose abortion in 95% of circumstances. I believe that most are just irresponsible, and feel like they should have planned ahead. I also don't pretend to know everybody, because I know some people may have lost their jobs or something, and it makes no sense to give birth to a child, when you don't have a job.

I judge them. I mean being in a rough spot, doesn't really justify murder.

it's not murder though. Murder and killing are two different things.

Murder and killing are in fact very different things.

Now, the question at hand is about political phrasing - for both sides really. I have long ago given up trying to use childish taunts like "anti-choice" or the likes. I can agree that what many pro-life activists preach and do are anything but pro-life, but it only makes me satisfied to say anything about it. "Pro-life" is what they have taken as their moniker, and I will use it. I hear "anti-life" or "pro-abortion" from the other side way more than I hear similar terms from the pro-choice side, and that generally makes me happy.

The pro-life side of the argument is run primarily on emotion. The arguments are generally exhausted after you look at pictures of fetuses. It is very natural for them to turn to some sort of ad hominem - "you are a monster". Well, I will be the monster to them, no skin off my nose.

How can you not feel emotion at something as offensive as murdering a baby though. People often make moral choices and don't have the philosophical background to explain why their intuition tells them that murder is wrong. I think you'd have trouble explaining why rape is wrong after I raped a relative of yours. Likely you'd just use emotion in your arguments. We don't know why we find things wrong, but we just do. Most people don't have the time to study philosophy to justify their emotional outrage at seeing a baby murdered, a woman raped or even being mugged. They just think it's wrong. Ask a rape victim why her rapist was in the wrong and see if you get a logical response? I'd be able to bring up the philosophy of self ownership, but most people will be forced to rely on emotions to say how it's wrong.

Why not come up with a good argument to explain why abortion is ethical, instead of shifting the burden?
16kadams
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1/4/2016 5:57:55 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 5:00:20 PM, imabench wrote:
At 1/4/2016 3:15:09 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
inb4 someone says the term 'Pro-Choice' shouldn't be used, and that it's either pro-life or anti-life :P

At 1/4/2016 4:23:59 AM, Dilara wrote:
I see it as pro life and anti life.

^ Its like she doesnt even know when she's making an idiot out of herself XDDD

Her logic is pretty much the same as the OP's, lol.
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tajshar2k
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1/4/2016 6:09:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 5:42:39 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/4/2016 4:07:32 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/4/2016 10:53:23 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/4/2016 2:40:55 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/4/2016 2:39:31 AM, tajshar2k wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me. For me, I look at it as Pro-Choice, and Anti-Choice, your mom could be pro-choice, and she made the decision to give birth. The other side, doesn't care what the mothers thinks, only that she should be forced to give birth.


Simple as that.

Me personally I oppose abortion in 95% of circumstances. I believe that most are just irresponsible, and feel like they should have planned ahead. I also don't pretend to know everybody, because I know some people may have lost their jobs or something, and it makes no sense to give birth to a child, when you don't have a job.

I judge them. I mean being in a rough spot, doesn't really justify murder.

it's not murder though. Murder and killing are two different things.

How would you differentiate the two. I wouldn't call two armies fighting each other murderers, maybe killers, but why the distinction with abortion?

Murder is the legal term and is on purpose, while killing could be accident. It's not murder if I step on an ant, and I kill it.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
tajshar2k
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1/4/2016 6:11:58 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 5:57:55 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 1/4/2016 5:00:20 PM, imabench wrote:
At 1/4/2016 3:15:09 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
inb4 someone says the term 'Pro-Choice' shouldn't be used, and that it's either pro-life or anti-life :P

At 1/4/2016 4:23:59 AM, Dilara wrote:
I see it as pro life and anti life.

^ Its like she doesnt even know when she's making an idiot out of herself XDDD

Her logic is pretty much the same as the OP's, lol.

Not really, If people are given the choice, they can choose between giving birth or abortion. That's like saying people who prefer charity over welfare don't like helping the poor. Charity you are given a choice.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
16kadams
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1/4/2016 6:16:25 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 6:11:58 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 1/4/2016 5:57:55 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 1/4/2016 5:00:20 PM, imabench wrote:
At 1/4/2016 3:15:09 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
inb4 someone says the term 'Pro-Choice' shouldn't be used, and that it's either pro-life or anti-life :P

At 1/4/2016 4:23:59 AM, Dilara wrote:
I see it as pro life and anti life.

^ Its like she doesnt even know when she's making an idiot out of herself XDDD

Her logic is pretty much the same as the OP's, lol.

Not really, If people are given the choice, they can choose between giving birth or abortion. That's like saying people who prefer charity over welfare don't like helping the poor. Charity you are given a choice.

That is from a choice perspective. But if you assume a fetus has the same rights as a fully grown adult, which she presumably does, you can frame it as a "pro-life" versus "anti-life" debate. There is no escaping that this debate can be framed as one of choice versus life. The question really comes down to whether or not you believe a fetus is morally equivalent to a fully grown person, and if you answer yes, the pro life position is essentially guaranteed. If you answer no, the pro-choice position becomes reasonable.

Plus the name "pro-life" and "pro-choice" was concocted by activist leaders on both sides in order to increase their poll numbers. No one wants to be anti-life and no one wants to be anti-choice. Both of those names are brilliant and both of the names should stay in use for political purposes. It is genius, just like the estate tax has turned into the death tax :D
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imabench
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1/4/2016 6:44:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 6:16:25 PM, 16kadams wrote:

if you assume a fetus has the same rights as a fully grown adult, which she presumably does

Except she doesnt
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Midnight1131
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1/4/2016 9:12:56 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 4:23:59 AM, Dilara wrote:
I see it as pro life and anti life. One side wants to save lives and the other side thinks its ok to kill lives that aren't wanted.

Wow, in that case the way you see it is clearly wrong.
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Midnight1131
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1/4/2016 9:20:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 6:16:25 PM, 16kadams wrote:
That is from a choice perspective. But if you assume a fetus has the same rights as a fully grown adult, which she presumably does, you can frame it as a "pro-life" versus "anti-life" debate.

Even then, if you believe that a fetus has the same rights and you're still pro-choice [or anti-life], then you believe that there should never be a situation where one human completely takes over and negates the autonomous rights of another. How is that belief accurately represented in the term "anti-life."
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16kadams
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1/4/2016 9:36:32 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 9:20:17 PM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 1/4/2016 6:16:25 PM, 16kadams wrote:
That is from a choice perspective. But if you assume a fetus has the same rights as a fully grown adult, which she presumably does, you can frame it as a "pro-life" versus "anti-life" debate.

Even then, if you believe that a fetus has the same rights and you're still pro-choice [or anti-life], then you believe that there should never be a situation where one human completely takes over and negates the autonomous rights of another. How is that belief accurately represented in the term "anti-life."

The same is reverse for choice, lol. It all depends on perspective.
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Midnight1131
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1/4/2016 10:07:46 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 9:36:32 PM, 16kadams wrote:
The same is reverse for choice, lol. It all depends on perspective.

Yeah, but I mean I haven't met anyone like Dilara who refers to pro life as anti choice.
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16kadams
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1/5/2016 12:32:34 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 10:07:46 PM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 1/4/2016 9:36:32 PM, 16kadams wrote:
The same is reverse for choice, lol. It all depends on perspective.

Yeah, but I mean I haven't met anyone like Dilara who refers to pro life as anti choice.

So? It doesn't matter what one group calls themselves. They will always go with the most flattering title. YOU ARE ANTI DEATH YOU MEANIE!!!!!!!!!! I AM PRO LIFE BEST NA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rekt scum
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Midnight1131
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1/5/2016 1:14:40 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 12:32:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
YOU ARE ANTI DEATH YOU MEANIE!!!!!!!!!! I AM PRO LIFE BEST NA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rekt scum

Lol, anti death and pro life aren't that different...
I get what you're saying though.
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