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Objectivity
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1/5/2016 2:42:13 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
This is completely reprehensible, it is unbelievably that anyone could be so vile and intellectually dishonest.. and no, I'm not talking about the militiamen, I am talking about the left and the media. For anyone who was too busy with the holidays to keep up, what we can see in this case is a clear example of government wrongdoing, the federal government literally strong armed people in to giving up their land in the name of "environmental protection" (because apparently owning 50% of the state the ranchers presided in wasn't enough). The Hammond family owned a ranch in Oregon, the federal government bought up all the land around the ranch, but the Hammond's wouldn't sell, so the government restricted their grazing rights and access to water, the Hammond's still wouldn't sell to the government, so when the Hammond's accidentally burned some of the federal government's land while attempting to burn some of their bad crops, the government prosecuted them.. not under an arson statute.. but under federal terrorism laws, where the mandatory minimum was 5 years in prison. The judge, recognizing the grave injustice against the Hammonds, attempted to significantly reduce the sentence so the "punishment fit the crime" and the federal government appealed to make sure the 5 year mandatory minimum was enforced. Now, here comes the especially bizarre part (as if this wasn't bad enough), the government offered the Hammond's a plea bargain where one of the conditions was that if the Hammond's sold the land, the government would get first dibs. So in summary what happened was, the government threw the book at the Hammond's to attempt to intimidate them in to selling their lands.. no rational person could justify this action. In protest, a group of people led by a member of the Bundy family decided to occupy a cabin in the woods next to Hammond's property owned by the federal government. Now, the media recognizing how difficult it would be to demonize the cause of these ranchers decided to cry racism (or more specifically Islamophobia). Remember, when all else fails you can always find a way to cry racism. So the narrative being pushed by the media is "If muslims attempted this they would all be dead by now", with little attention being payed to why these people are occupying this cabin. Because obviously mass murder is the same as occupying a remote cabin in the woods without firing a shot. I could go on all day about why this is completely ridiculous but I'd be interested to see if anyone can offer a coherent defense for either the government's or the medias actions.
Vox_Veritas
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1/5/2016 3:21:00 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
What they're doing is like past instances of protesters seizing control of X territory (I.e. AIM in 1973 at Wounded Knee). It's definitely illegal, but it cannot honestly be called terrorism.
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Vox_Veritas
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1/5/2016 3:24:44 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 3:21:00 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
What they're doing is like past instances of protesters seizing control of X territory (I.e. AIM in 1973 at Wounded Knee). It's definitely illegal, but it cannot honestly be called terrorism.

Also, the people raising allegations of the protesters being white supremacists are probably retarded.
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Objectivity
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1/5/2016 3:29:52 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 3:24:44 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:21:00 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
What they're doing is like past instances of protesters seizing control of X territory (I.e. AIM in 1973 at Wounded Knee). It's definitely illegal, but it cannot honestly be called terrorism.

Also, the people raising allegations of the protesters being white supremacists are probably retarded.

Of course being white, owning a farm and having a gun=white supremacists. Like I said they can't discredit the cause so instead they discredit the people involved or cry racism, it is a go to for some on the left
Vox_Veritas
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1/5/2016 3:35:14 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 3:29:52 AM, Objectivity wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:24:44 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:21:00 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
What they're doing is like past instances of protesters seizing control of X territory (I.e. AIM in 1973 at Wounded Knee). It's definitely illegal, but it cannot honestly be called terrorism.

Also, the people raising allegations of the protesters being white supremacists are probably retarded.

Of course being white, owning a farm and having a gun=white supremacists. Like I said they can't discredit the cause so instead they discredit the people involved or cry racism, it is a go to for some on the left

I'm not even saying that I agree with the protesters; the media could've very easily found an actual reason to bash the protesters.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Objectivity
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1/5/2016 3:45:55 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 3:35:14 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:29:52 AM, Objectivity wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:24:44 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:21:00 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
What they're doing is like past instances of protesters seizing control of X territory (I.e. AIM in 1973 at Wounded Knee). It's definitely illegal, but it cannot honestly be called terrorism.

Also, the people raising allegations of the protesters being white supremacists are probably retarded.

Of course being white, owning a farm and having a gun=white supremacists. Like I said they can't discredit the cause so instead they discredit the people involved or cry racism, it is a go to for some on the left

I'm not even saying that I agree with the protesters; the media could've very easily found an actual reason to bash the protesters.

So you agree with what the government did to Hammond?
Vox_Veritas
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1/5/2016 3:55:03 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 3:45:55 AM, Objectivity wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:35:14 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:29:52 AM, Objectivity wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:24:44 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:21:00 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
What they're doing is like past instances of protesters seizing control of X territory (I.e. AIM in 1973 at Wounded Knee). It's definitely illegal, but it cannot honestly be called terrorism.

Also, the people raising allegations of the protesters being white supremacists are probably retarded.

Of course being white, owning a farm and having a gun=white supremacists. Like I said they can't discredit the cause so instead they discredit the people involved or cry racism, it is a go to for some on the left

I'm not even saying that I agree with the protesters; the media could've very easily found an actual reason to bash the protesters.

So you agree with what the government did to Hammond?

I don't know all the facts; I'll just leave it at that.
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Robkwoods
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1/5/2016 3:59:45 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 2:42:13 AM, Objectivity wrote:
This is completely reprehensible, it is unbelievably that anyone could be so vile and intellectually dishonest.. and no, I'm not talking about the militiamen, I am talking about the left and the media. For anyone who was too busy with the holidays to keep up, what we can see in this case is a clear example of government wrongdoing, the federal government literally strong armed people in to giving up their land in the name of "environmental protection" (because apparently owning 50% of the state the ranchers presided in wasn't enough). The Hammond family owned a ranch in Oregon, the federal government bought up all the land around the ranch, but the Hammond's wouldn't sell, so the government restricted their grazing rights and access to water, the Hammond's still wouldn't sell to the government, so when the Hammond's accidentally burned some of the federal government's land while attempting to burn some of their bad crops, the government prosecuted them.. not under an arson statute.. but under federal terrorism laws, where the mandatory minimum was 5 years in prison. The judge, recognizing the grave injustice against the Hammonds, attempted to significantly reduce the sentence so the "punishment fit the crime" and the federal government appealed to make sure the 5 year mandatory minimum was enforced. Now, here comes the especially bizarre part (as if this wasn't bad enough), the government offered the Hammond's a plea bargain where one of the conditions was that if the Hammond's sold the land, the government would get first dibs. So in summary what happened was, the government threw the book at the Hammond's to attempt to intimidate them in to selling their lands.. no rational person could justify this action. In protest, a group of people led by a member of the Bundy family decided to occupy a cabin in the woods next to Hammond's property owned by the federal government. Now, the media recognizing how difficult it would be to demonize the cause of these ranchers decided to cry racism (or more specifically Islamophobia). Remember, when all else fails you can always find a way to cry racism. So the narrative being pushed by the media is "If muslims attempted this they would all be dead by now", with little attention being payed to why these people are occupying this cabin. Because obviously mass murder is the same as occupying a remote cabin in the woods without firing a shot. I could go on all day about why this is completely ridiculous but I'd be interested to see if anyone can offer a coherent defense for either the government's or the medias actions.

+1
Vox_Veritas
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1/5/2016 4:51:50 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Okay, now I know what is going on.
The Hammonds were not justified in committing at least the first of the two fires (I don't know about the other one) and the 5 year resentencing was not overly unfair (though it should've been a little shorter to account for the time already served).
The participants in the standoff have nothing to do with the Hammonds; rather, they're independent activists. One of the participants in the standoff is Jon Ritzheimer, a former Marine who has in the past made some anti-Islam videos on the internet. (This isn't, however, by any means enough to state that the activists are white supremacists, much less that their motivation is race-based in any way.) The Hammonds have tried to distance themselves from the protesters.

In this particular case I'd probably take the side of the Federal Government, though I agree that the media's handling of this is horrible.
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Vox_Veritas
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1/5/2016 4:53:33 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Then again, if they were actually convicted under terrorism laws that changes things quite a bit.
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thett3
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1/5/2016 4:57:49 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
What's hilarious about the leftist response to this is how commonly they say "If they weren't white they would be dead right now"

Uh......yeah, no, They occupied an unimportant government building in the middle of nowhere with zero hostages. There's no reason for the government to come in guns-a-blazin', that would only put the lives of law enforcement in jeopardy and be a PR nightmare. Believe it or not, when the government slaughtered the Branch Davidians in Waco? People didn't like it. In Baltimore, rioters were not shot. They were not even stopped. They were given "space to destroy"

How can peoples views of reality be this backward? It's truly like living in an insane world
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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1/5/2016 4:58:52 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 3:29:52 AM, Objectivity wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:24:44 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 1/5/2016 3:21:00 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
What they're doing is like past instances of protesters seizing control of X territory (I.e. AIM in 1973 at Wounded Knee). It's definitely illegal, but it cannot honestly be called terrorism.

Also, the people raising allegations of the protesters being white supremacists are probably retarded.

Of course being white=white supremacists. Like I said they can't discredit the cause so instead they discredit the people involved or cry racism, it is a go to for some on the left

Fixed that for you.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Vox_Veritas
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1/5/2016 5:01:25 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Also, now I see that the allegations were not of the activists being racist but of the Feds being overly lenient due to the activists being white (which is still a bunch of bull$#!+).
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1harderthanyouthink
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1/5/2016 5:03:14 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 4:53:33 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Then again, if they were actually convicted under terrorism laws that changes things quite a bit.

As far as I know it was arson laws.
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thett3
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1/5/2016 5:09:33 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 5:03:14 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 1/5/2016 4:53:33 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Then again, if they were actually convicted under terrorism laws that changes things quite a bit.

As far as I know it was arson laws.

IIRC, what happened is that in two incidents they started a fire on their ranch to prevent invasive plants that spread into federal land, burning over 100 acres in one incident and 1 acre in the other incident. The ranchers claimed that it was accidental, the prosecution argued that the fires were intentional to obscure evidence of poaching on federal land. They were convicted under a federal terrorism statute and the judge threw out the mandatory 5 year sentence as cruel and unusual and assigned lesser sentences, which were served and they were released. The prosecution appealed to the circuit court which ruled that a sentence of 5 years was not cruel and unusual so they were ordered to return to prison to serve the remainder of their sentences and they refused, kicking off this whole mess.

There's also a lot of hand wringing about who owns the land but I haven't been able to get a clear picture of that.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
imabench
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1/5/2016 5:16:55 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 5:09:33 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/5/2016 5:03:14 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 1/5/2016 4:53:33 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Then again, if they were actually convicted under terrorism laws that changes things quite a bit.

As far as I know it was arson laws.

IIRC, what happened is that in two incidents they started a fire on their ranch to prevent invasive plants that spread into federal land, burning over 100 acres in one incident and 1 acre in the other incident. The ranchers claimed that it was accidental, the prosecution argued that the fires were intentional to obscure evidence of poaching on federal land. They were convicted under a federal terrorism statute and the judge threw out the mandatory 5 year sentence as cruel and unusual and assigned lesser sentences, which were served and they were released. The prosecution appealed to the circuit court which ruled that a sentence of 5 years was not cruel and unusual so they were ordered to return to prison to serve the remainder of their sentences and they refused, kicking off this whole mess.

There's also a lot of hand wringing about who owns the land but I haven't been able to get a clear picture of that.

Sounds like they simply decided to take over an isolated building on a park and convince other gun-loving idiots to join their cause under 'patriotism' to try to strike a deal with the government to not go to jail in exchange for disbanding the 'rebellion' they were in charge of.
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imabench
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1/5/2016 5:17:06 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 5:13:52 AM, YYW wrote:
I read this OP and lol'd
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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000ike
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1/5/2016 5:20:35 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
My sympathy immediately evaporates the moment I hear they're armed and have watchmen keeping vigil atop towers.

Forming a militia to intimidate or deter the US federal government is just stupidity of the highest order.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
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1/5/2016 5:36:22 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 5:33:54 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 1/5/2016 5:13:52 AM, YYW wrote:
I read this OP and lol'd

Viva la revolution, bitch

oh f*ck yyw and dylan in the same thread time to get the hell outta here
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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Vox_Veritas
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1/5/2016 7:12:57 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
What is clear, however, is that Ammon Bundy is delusional about what's actually going to happen. He believes that patriots from around the US will assemble in the group's occupied territory and that it'll become a bastion for freedom and the main base of a nationwide struggle against Government tyranny.
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Objectivity
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1/5/2016 11:08:49 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 5:13:52 AM, YYW wrote:
I read this OP and lol'd

Whats more laughable is your lack of substantive response to 90% of posts but whatever.
Objectivity
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1/5/2016 11:11:16 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 4:53:33 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Then again, if they were actually convicted under terrorism laws that changes things quite a bit.

They were, and it was just an attempt to intimidate them in to a plea bargain to sell their land. Also both of the burns they did are from my understanding common practice for ranchers. They also put out the fire on their own.
Objectivity
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1/5/2016 11:16:07 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 7:12:57 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
What is clear, however, is that Ammon Bundy is delusional about what's actually going to happen. He believes that patriots from around the US will assemble in the group's occupied territory and that it'll become a bastion for freedom and the main base of a nationwide struggle against Government tyranny.

Agreed, I think Bundy isn't necessarily the best person to be the face of a movement that is becoming increasingly necessary in the face of stuff like this. That aside, my original point was that the cause the militiamen are supporting is just.
Objectivity
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1/5/2016 11:17:29 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 5:16:55 AM, imabench wrote:
At 1/5/2016 5:09:33 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/5/2016 5:03:14 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 1/5/2016 4:53:33 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Then again, if they were actually convicted under terrorism laws that changes things quite a bit.

As far as I know it was arson laws.

IIRC, what happened is that in two incidents they started a fire on their ranch to prevent invasive plants that spread into federal land, burning over 100 acres in one incident and 1 acre in the other incident. The ranchers claimed that it was accidental, the prosecution argued that the fires were intentional to obscure evidence of poaching on federal land. They were convicted under a federal terrorism statute and the judge threw out the mandatory 5 year sentence as cruel and unusual and assigned lesser sentences, which were served and they were released. The prosecution appealed to the circuit court which ruled that a sentence of 5 years was not cruel and unusual so they were ordered to return to prison to serve the remainder of their sentences and they refused, kicking off this whole mess.

There's also a lot of hand wringing about who owns the land but I haven't been able to get a clear picture of that.

Sounds like they simply decided to take over an isolated building on a park and convince other gun-loving idiots to join their cause under 'patriotism' to try to strike a deal with the government to not go to jail in exchange for disbanding the 'rebellion' they were in charge of.

So they took over the building because it sounded fun? Thats what I get from your interpretation.
stealspell
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1/5/2016 11:20:31 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 3:21:00 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
What they're doing is like past instances of protesters seizing control of X territory (I.e. AIM in 1973 at Wounded Knee). It's definitely illegal, but it cannot honestly be called terrorism.

"Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code

18 U.S.C. " 2331 defines "international terrorism" and "domestic terrorism" for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled "Terrorism":

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S."

They're terrorists.
Objectivity
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1/5/2016 11:30:58 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 4:51:50 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Okay, now I know what is going on.
The Hammonds were not justified in committing at least the first of the two fires (I don't know about the other one) and the 5 year resentencing was not overly unfair (though it should've been a little shorter to account for the time already served).
The participants in the standoff have nothing to do with the Hammonds; rather, they're independent activists. One of the participants in the standoff is Jon Ritzheimer, a former Marine who has in the past made some anti-Islam videos on the internet. (This isn't, however, by any means enough to state that the activists are white supremacists, much less that their motivation is race-based in any way.) The Hammonds have tried to distance themselves from the protesters.

In this particular case I'd probably take the side of the Federal Government, though I agree that the media's handling of this is horrible.

I'll reply to this in detail soon, on my phone rn
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1/5/2016 12:40:32 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Chill guys, I'm sure they are just huge fans of Grand Theft Auto, and they just wanted to do this. It sounds pretty cool after all.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k